Niagara flapperless - whats the deal?

[Raucina]

http://www.terrylove.com/wc/niagara/niagara_inside_tank.jpg
Discovered this toilet with a internal trough that flips to dump water and was intrigued.... NO sweating and NO flapper. Then a search brought me to a very detailed toilet test done by a government agency. I recall the first three best as Toto ultramaxes, and then this Niagara flapperless - rated higher than the other Toto's, and I found it delivered for about 180$ online.

It looks a bit ugly, but I see it as a great landlord toilet and other than master bath unit. This test also had really surprising results from flapper replacements that took many 1.6 flushes to 5.5 gallons. This tipping trough cannot vary in its flush gallonage... and based on test results gives a agressive flush from the quick water drop. Am I looking at the next gold standard in toilets?

Renters recently wrecked a septic system to the tune of 2,000$ from running toilets [flapper + ignorance] so eliminating that piece of rubber looks attractive.

[Cass]

If i remember the fill valve float is attatched to the trough some how so I would guess it could fail and allow water to flow constantly just like a regular toilet fill valve set up, but yes it has no flapper.

They do flush very well and are very ugly. When installing the tank it just sits on the bowl...no gasget to compress. I have no I idea about how well they work, and I have no Idea about parts when the time comes that you need them.

[Mikey]

Very cool: http://www.niagaraflapperless.ca/toilets.htm. I'm with Cass, though -- any valve can fail. They look as attractive as any conventional toilet I've seen (maybe beauty is in the eye of the beholder), and look readily adaptable to dual-flush.
3536

http://www.terrylove.com/wc/niagara/niagara_angle.jpg

[Terry]

I've sold quite a few of the Niagara Flapperless before they were outsourced to China.

Then I started noticing a difference.
Some complaints I've gotten, are the tray sometimes sticks when flushed, and the water keeps pouring over the tray when that happens.
Handles break easily and are hard to replace.
I've had trays with cracks in the plastic seams, that leaked after installation. Because it's sort of invisible to the eye, it took a while to determine the cause.
It's not a high quality product. So why would you consider the phrase "gold standard"?
Not even.
For me, it became too much of a warranty problem to continue.

[Mikey]

Thanks, Terry -- you just can't beat field experience.

The "field experience" I miss is the good old outhouse. Zero gpf, very quiet, nothing to splash up and hit you in the butt, no worries about what kind of toilet paper to use, about as green as you can get, change of scenery every 5 or 6 years. Ah, the good old days.

[Raucina]

Well, the kiss of death of China again! However if it worked well before that move, it could work well again with some plastics upgrade. Are you sure they are all coming from China? What I see looks like Canadian mfg.

So perhaps gold has a way to go, but in the flush tests [I'll post a link if anyones interested] it was quite a performer. The most interesting portion is about the effects of generic flapper replacements, making some use less and some much more water.

The pic that was posted here is not the 180$ ugly 2 piece that I am seeing.

[cwhyu2]

Thanks, Terry -- you just can't beat field experience.

The "field experience" I miss is the good old outhouse. Zero gpf, very quiet, nothing to splash up and hit you in the butt, no worries about what kind of toilet paper to use, about as green as you can get, change of scenery every 5 or 6 years. Ah, the good old days.
Except the flies & bees:eek:

[Mikey]

And the snakes...

[cwhyu2]

And the snakes...

Snakes I can live with they eat bugs:D

[Cass]

Gold just hit $880.00/oz

[Redwood]

I have made money augering a Niagra Flapperless... I have never seen a clogged Toto Drake that did not have a clogged main line under it!

I am not a fan of anything unconventional in plumbing! When the manufacturers better mousetrap does not succede in sales and the manufacturer disappears all you have left is a paperweight. I would not consider a Niagra Flapperless to be a good candidate for being a paperweight!

[in wants out]

Installed 100+ for Water District Conservation Program. Noisy. Trough doesn't always return to upright after flush, then continues to run. Has exotic fill valve. Supposed to be lever reversible, left to right, etc.-GOOD LUCK! The adjustible rough/sliding tank is a great feature for install. Many cracked in box.

[Dixit]

Well I will chime in here on the Niagara. I was impressed with the flush concept of the trough and all that jazz looks great on their website and a few conventions I went to where I saw them showing it off. So in my house I decided to buy one (before buying 4 others for the other bathrooms) and installed it. Bought it from Home Depot (Glacier Bay toilet but has Niagara internals). I have to say Im quite dissapointed in this toilet. I can see how some of the tests like the MaP ones where it fails misserable on how many grams it can flush. This toilet definetely requires two flushes at times. The flush comes down so quick that it doesnt continue in the bowl in the sense that it continues to force the last bit of water, so what happens you still have dirty water left.

After this, I think Im getting rid of this toilet and getting the Toto Drake or Western immitation one.

Dixit

[Raucina]

Gave up on the online order- guess the ships stuck in a harbor.

Looked at one at Homedeeepo - looks pretty crude from the china castings. The tipper and the valve are USA made and look okay.

Bought a few Cadet 3's - South America, but nice quality and high reviews. Less money than the Nigara. Internals seem to be usa and the tank only is boxed up in Ohio - go figure.

flapperless.... good idea, murdered by the Chinese and greed of the creator.

[frustrated beyond belief]

I purchased the Niagara toilet about a year ago at Home Depot. I didn't realize you could not buy parts from Home Depot. You have to order from the manufacturer.

My problem is the toilet continues to run which makes my water bill go through the roof. Specifically water runs through the top of the cylinder on the side of the float. I have contacted the manufacturer and they have sent me two of the floats and new O rings and still it runs. I am at the point of going back to the flapper method by buying a new toilet. I hate to do it because the toilet is roughly a year old and I hate to waste money. Does anyone have suggestions on how to resolve this matter?

My other question:
Do I have any recourse with either the manufacturer or Home Depot? Ideally I would like my money back.
Thanks

[Terry]

Are you sure it's not an adjustment of the float?
Sometimes, if the float does not adjust to make the fill valve stop, the soft copper can be adjusted by "bending" it.

What happens when you lift up on the float?

[frustrated beyond belief]

http://www.terrylove.com/wc/niagara/niagara_inside_tank.jpg

I lifted the float up to simulate the tank being full and it still runs through the cylinder.

I have shut off water flow into the toilet but it appears to still send water into the toilet. I wouldn't think that matters because you always have water sent to the tank when the valve is not shut off. Hopefully this made sense.

[Terry]

http://www.terrylove.com/wc/niagara/niagara_inside_tank.jpg
The internals of the fill valve are made by Fluidmaster.
It spins off from the white nut, and the hardware store should have the rubber seal for it.

[1Msippi]

I had the same problem with mine this afternoon. Wouldn't quit running. I took it off at the white nut as suggested and then gave the part where the float arm hinge is a 1/4 turn to the left. (They even provide two tabs for this when you grab it.) It opened right up and two small pieces of rust/salt fell out. I gave it a 1/4 turn to put it back together and reinstalled it. Works like a champ now.