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Verdeboy
11-09-2007, 05:38 PM
I need to install a garbage disposal, but there's no outlet under the sink. The closest outlet is to the right of the dishwasher. You can see from pic 1 that the dishwasher is plugged into the top of this outlet.

I offered to tap into this outlet and install a toggle switch a few feet above that would only work 1/2 the duplex (after removing the connecting tabs).

The homeowner nixed this, saying that her arthritis wouldn't allow her to walk the extra few feet to turn the G/D on and off. I offered to have the switch be above the sink, but she nixed that, because I would have to tear into a lot more of the wall and remove some tile.

The only thing I can think of is to splice into the appliance cord and install a toggle switch that sits in a box that I'd put inside the dummy board under her counter (see pic 2). Is that up to code?

Also, do they make an appliance cord with a toggle switch already built in?

480sparky
11-09-2007, 05:46 PM
I see an unused opening to the right of the faucet. Why not get a air switch and turn the disposal on from there?

Air Switch (http://www.presair.com/uploads/SafeAire_disposal_switch.pdf)

Let me guess.... the duplex in the photo is not grounded. If it isn't, DON"T USE IT! I would first check the dishwasher circuit. If it is grounded, then use that instead.

Verdeboy
11-10-2007, 09:45 AM
Thanks, sparky.

That's a very elegant solution to the problem. Didn't know those existed.

Backglass
11-11-2007, 07:21 AM
Wow, this could have saved me a lot of time & trouble on my last disposal install. I did some searching and In-Sink-erator has there own version (http://www.insinkerator.com/en-us/Household-Products/Garbage-Disposers/Evolution/Pages/SinkTopSwitch.aspx) of this. A great idea!

(BTW: I'm no electrician, but that outlet scares me. Thats a big cord w/cheater plug.)

http://terrylove.com/images/insinkerator_air_switch.jpg

Verdeboy
11-11-2007, 10:35 AM
If none of the outlets are grounded in that old house, is it still against code to plug in a garbage disposal?

I'm sure they've plugged in hundreds of appliances over the years in those ungrounded outlets.

frenchie
11-11-2007, 12:02 PM
If none of the outlets are grounded in that old house, is it still against code to plug in a garbage disposal?

Yes, it is. The manufacturer's installation instructions rule, and they always require grounding.

There might be a work-around you can do, running a new ground wire or something like that - I'm not sure - hopefully Mike or Petey or one of the other pro 'lectricians will drop by & enlighten us...

jwelectric
11-11-2007, 05:18 PM
I'm not sure - hopefully Mike or Petey or one of the other pro 'lectricians will drop by & enlighten us...

250.130(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

Mikey
11-12-2007, 05:22 AM
Wish I'd known about that InSinkerator Air Switch before I spent a day fishing a cable up to a new switch in the wall. Looks like it requires a grounded receptacle, though.

Verdeboy
11-12-2007, 09:07 AM
Wish I'd known about that InSinkerator Air Switch... Looks like it requires a grounded receptacle, though.

Had to rub it in didn't you? ;)

Verdeboy
11-12-2007, 09:09 AM
250.130(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch Circuit Extensions. The equipment grounding conductor of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:
(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system as described in 250.50
(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor
(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure where the branch circuit for the receptacle or branch circuit originates
(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor within the service equipment enclosure
(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar within the service equipment enclosure

Can someone put this in plain English for those of us who don't speak "Spark-Ese"?

Verdeboy
11-12-2007, 07:25 PM
How's about I install a GFCI there and get rid of the ungrounded receptacle and 2-3 prong adapter. That way, at least the DW and G/D will be protected and maybe more, depending on what's downstream in that circuit.

frenchie
11-12-2007, 11:32 PM
I think what he meant is you can run a seperate ground for that box, then you'll be fine.

I was you, I'd just wait for him to come back - if you ask nicely, he'll usually give you plain english. If not, wait for Petey.

jwelectric
11-13-2007, 06:56 AM
How's about I install a GFCI there and get rid of the ungrounded receptacle and 2-3 prong adapter. That way, at least the DW and G/D will be protected and maybe more, depending on what's downstream in that circuit.

This would be the simple solution

406.3(D) (3) Non–grounding-Type Receptacles. Where grounding means does not exist in the receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with (D)(3)(a), (D)(3)(b), or (D)(3)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interrupter-type of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter-type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

ked
11-13-2007, 08:14 AM
Run a new 12-2 circuit to the under sink location. Terminate it in a surface mounted box with a receptacle in it. Run smurf,flex or AC cable to the switch. Install a switch inside the cabinet under the sink so you will need to open the cabinet door to turn the disposal on. Make the switch convenient. Connect the wires so that one half of the receptacle is switched. The other half will be hot all the time so in the future the DW can be plugged into it. I assume your AHJ allows GD/DW sharing of one circuit. My guess is that the DW is also ungrounded. Air switch is an idea but you still have to run the air line and mount it to the wall.(same work as running wires) Also do not know if air switch is legal for a disposal.

jwelectric
11-13-2007, 08:52 AM
Run a new 12-2 circuit to the under sink location. Terminate it in a surface mounted box with a receptacle in it. Run smurf,flex or AC cable to the switch. Install a switch inside the cabinet under the sink so you will need to open the cabinet door to turn the disposal on. Make the switch convenient. Connect the wires so that one half of the receptacle is switched. The other half will be hot all the time so in the future the DW can be plugged into it. I assume your AHJ allows GD/DW sharing of one circuit. My guess is that the DW is also ungrounded. Air switch is an idea but you still have to run the air line and mount it to the wall.(same work as running wires) Also do not know if air switch is legal for a disposal.

When making an installation such as this care must be taken to:
210.23(A)(2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

make sure that neither appliance draws more than 10 amps

Mikey
11-13-2007, 09:54 AM
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s) where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter. Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the ground-fault circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected” and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor shall not be connected between the grounding-type receptacles.

Does this mean I can't replace a non-grounding receptacle with a grounding receptacle supplied through a GFCI which is properly grounded, and extend the grounding conductor from the GFCI to the new receptacle? That appears to be what it says, but I'd like to believe that's not what it intends.

jadnashua
11-13-2007, 10:21 AM
If there's no source of ground to the GFCI, then running a ground wire to the others down-link from it would have no effect, and potentially make someone believe that it really was grounded. A ground in this case would do nothing except possibly energize other devices on the circuit if there was a fault. The safety ground is there to provide a path back to the panel and trip the breaker. Current running around on a ground wire that was not grounded may not trip either the breaker or the GFCI, presenting more danger than if it was hooked up.