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lifespeed
11-09-2007, 01:53 PM
Has anybody used these? There are a few different models available. While they don't remove calcium and magnesium compounds, they do keep them in solution while they go through your plumbing and out the showerhead, washing machine, etc. They are claimed to improve the effective 'softness' of the water due to this increased solubility.

Here are a couple links electromagnetic (http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) and another that is electronic/catalytic (http://www.no-salt.com/).

Before you dismiss it as nonsense, look at the government evaluation (http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf) of this technology. It does appear the focus is on de-scaling of pipes that build up lime deposits, especially under heat. Kind of like the average home hot water heater . . .

Lifespeed

Dunbar Plumbing
11-09-2007, 02:08 PM
Go ahead and buy it, let us know how well it works.

lifespeed
11-09-2007, 02:30 PM
Go ahead and buy it, let us know how well it works.

Is that the best you can do? :rolleyes:

Here is another unit, somewhat different technology (http://www.aeswater.com/htmls/products.html). Causes the calcium carbonate to form into microscopic scale crystals rather than scale on your pipes. A colloidal suspension, if you will.

jadnashua
11-09-2007, 03:04 PM
I think what he was getting at is that none of these things seem to work. The mind plays big tricks on us, so you can't go by some people's perceptions. Buy it if you want to...take a water sample before it and after it and have them both analyzed. They'll both be identical.

theelviscerator
11-09-2007, 03:53 PM
Works as well as an ionic bracelet I imagine.

lifespeed
11-09-2007, 04:01 PM
I think what he was getting at is that none of these things seem to work. The mind plays big tricks on us, so you can't go by some people's perceptions. Buy it if you want to...take a water sample before it and after it and have them both analyzed. They'll both be identical.

I am aware of psychological effects. I agree the water won't be changed in that it will still contain Ca++ and Mg++ .

However, I posted links that contain empirical results. The claim was not that the minerals are removed, but that they are crystallized "in suspension", rather than crystallizing on your pipes. The additional claim is that this will improve the annoying water hardness problems associated with spots on glass, soap scum and excessive soap use.

I will also agree that there have been many bad actors in this field, giving it an overall bad reputation. I don't think that means that the concept is completely invalid. It is in use in industry today. Would that be the case were it smoke and mirrors?

Lastly, a similar technology called "Template Assisted Crystallization (http://www.nextfiltration.com/next-ScaleStop.html)" may be a better alternative to electromagnetic methods.

I understand skepticism, but I also believe it is possible for technology to improve.

Lifespeed

lifespeed
11-09-2007, 04:06 PM
Works as well as an ionic bracelet I imagine.

Another clever comment by someone who did not read the analysis of these methods, which were the subject of a thorough evaluation (http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf). Perhaps you can post an evaluation of your ionic bracelet in a peer-reviewed industry publication?

Furd
11-09-2007, 04:19 PM
Under some conditions magnetic treat DOES work.

Here is a report from a personal friend and water treatment consultant with over twenty years in the business of water treatment.

http://water-treatment-consulting.blogspot.com/2006/03/truth-about-dolphin-system.html

Bob NH
11-09-2007, 04:19 PM
Another clever comment by someone who did not read the analysis of these methods, which were the subject of a thorough evaluation (http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf). Perhaps you can post an evaluation of your ionic bracelet in a peer-reviewed industry publication?

Lifespeed; please tell us if you have any affiliation or financial interest in these products, or in the research associated with them. What are your connections in these things?

I looked at the first link and didn't see anything that looked like a product. It was the kind of article that anyone could cite but there was no indication about how any product would relate to the article.

Bob NH; PE

lifespeed
11-09-2007, 04:37 PM
Lifespeed; please tell us if you have any affiliation or financial interest in these products, or in the research associated with them. What are your connections in these things?

I looked at the first link and didn't see anything that looked like a product. It was the kind of article that anyone could cite but there was no indication about how any product would relate to the article.

Bob NH; PE

Some equipment manufacturers are listed on page 17 of the .PDF file. The evaluation was focused on the energy savings associated with improving boiler efficiency by virtue of removing the thermal barrier caused by scale buildup, hence the government interest. As an independent evaluation of the technology, I would not expect them to promote any specific brand. I would also expect that some products work, and some do not work much at all.

As a homeowner and (possible) consumer I am interested in both the scale removal and hard-water mitigation aspects. I don't sell them.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-09-2007, 05:57 PM
Is that the best you can do? :rolleyes:





Uuuhm....yes. You're using big words and producing a ton of outlinks to other sites to debate what you already know has substantial opposition.


I've answered this question too many times on the net; all of them want to debate their validity and my reference points come straight from the top; those qualified as experts that know water treatment best.....


Not the gooooooogle and yahoo search engine knowledge-based informants.


Cheeseburger, fries, extra salt and ketchup but I must have a diet coke.

SteveW
11-09-2007, 06:29 PM
Has anybody used these? There are a few different models available. While they don't remove calcium and magnesium compounds, they do keep them in solution while they go through your plumbing and out the showerhead, washing machine, etc. They are claimed to improve the effective 'softness' of the water due to this increased solubility.

Here are a couple links electromagnetic (http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) and another that is electronic/catalytic (http://www.no-salt.com/).

Before you dismiss it as nonsense, look at the government evaluation (http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf) of this technology. It does appear the focus is on de-scaling of pipes that build up lime deposits, especially under heat. Kind of like the average home hot water heater . . .

Lifespeed


Admittedly, it's been many years since I took a chemistry class, but the first reference ("electromagnetic") in particular strikes me as pseudo-scientific claptrap.

Can anyone else make heads or tails of the "information" in that link?

lifespeed
11-09-2007, 07:07 PM
Uuuhm....yes. You're using big words and producing a ton of outlinks to other sites to debate what you already know has substantial opposition.

Opposition based on what? I agreed that some snake oil has been sold, and this is even acknowledged in the Federal Technology Alert.

Furd posted a link to a "personal friend and water treatment consultant with over twenty years in the business of water treatment" who agrees it works.

Despite the big words, I'm just trying to sort the snake oil from what really works. I suspect your blanket dismissal may not be 100% correct, but I am trying to figure it out.

Bob NH
11-09-2007, 09:26 PM
Can you find anyone that even sells a system that utilizes the technology? I have never seen it for sale by a reputable company.

NOBODY here is going to recommend it because it smells like snake oil.

I think you should spend at least $10,000 on this thing including instrumentation to prove that it works.

If you are going to make an investment in it, then you should write very tight specifications and get an iron-clad warranty. Then if it fails to meet the requirements, if the vendor is still in business, you may get your money back.

I suspect that any price you get will be at least twice what a reputable vendor will sell you for a proven water softener.

Herk
11-11-2007, 09:28 AM
If anyone here actually believes that moving water perhaps 80 feet per second past a small magnet is going to significantly alter the composition of the water, I'm having a special sale on bridges today - two for one sale.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-11-2007, 09:40 AM
I'm pretty sure Herk that he was an advertiser with a twist; came with tons of links and general "rebuttal" statements....unlike most computer generated scripts that normally don't offer that. Some don't even care, they just want site views to push them higher up on the search engines or that web crawlers pick up linked-to sites.


On another front (to Terry) I've noticed that Vbulletin software is getting hammered hard with spamming on quite a few sites.

I've proposed to one site since it's so bad that they need to build a front page or ghost page so that it takes 2 clicks, not one to get to the forum boards.

This will alter the steps that a script bot has to take and therefore stop the process. Visual confirmation though will stop this problem immediately, unless of course you have an actual person pushing product.

It's unusual to see Vbulletin with this problem all of a sudden...hopefully they are working on a patch to cure the problem quickly.

Furd
11-11-2007, 09:52 AM
Furd posted a link to a "personal friend and water treatment consultant with over twenty years in the business of water treatment" who agrees it works.


What my friend stated is that one particular system does work under some very specific circumstances in an industrial environment.

I was actually involved with this experiment in its early stages but I retired before the conclusions were in. I and my friend would agree that using any kind of magnetic treatment to alleviate the hard water conditions in a residence is not likely to be cost effective nor of much use in combating the problems that will occur.

master plumber mark
11-11-2007, 10:51 AM
these magnetic water softening devices
come and go every decade or two.....

once everyone forgets how crummey they were 15 years ago they try to re-pacakge them and sell them to the next
wave of suckers that come along....

Perhoaps you are looking to buy into a Franchise on them??? Or perhaps you are looking to buy one....
Either way you are gonna get taken for a ride.



I have torn out about a dozen of them over the years
almost everyone said that they never worked from the get go.


they do not work because ---I had heard somewhere that
it has to do with the volume of water or FLOW RATE passing the magnets....simply cannot soften it quick enough.

does that answer the question....


ask Gary Sussler what he thinks of them

Dunbar Plumbing
11-11-2007, 05:23 PM
You tellem Furd!!!

lifespeed
11-11-2007, 05:27 PM
they do not work because ---I had heard somewhere that
it has to do with the volume of water or FLOW RATE passing the magnets....simply cannot soften it quick enough.
does that answer the question....

I would have to agree that just slapping a permanent magnet on your water pipe, and relying on the velocity of the water to generate an electric field gradient is not likely to work.

I think one of the more promising approaches is the "Template Assisted Crystallization" (http://www.nextfiltration.com/next-ScaleStop.html). It doesn't use the electromagnetic approach, although the results are similar. Crystalization of the lime in solution rather than on the pipes.

I must say, what a bunch of old dogs that can't learn new tricks. Although the abundance of scammer products clearly pollutes the pool.

Lifespeed

Dunbar Plumbing
11-11-2007, 05:28 PM
eeeeek!! Another Link!!!

smellslike$tome
11-11-2007, 06:23 PM
I have no experience with these type "softeners" but I do have some experience with the more traditional units that add salt. Not as an installer but as a plumbing service provider that had to explain to the HO that because the nitwit who installed it made a direct connection from the discharge line of the unit to her 40' long 2" kitchen drain line, that the discharge brine solution introduced into her sanitary drainage system from the self cleaning function of the unit had hardened to almost rock status and was closing off more or less the entire downstream length of her drain line. By the way, the direct connection was made by drilling a hole in the vertical section of her ks drain coming from upstairs and gluing some type of 1/2" plug which appeared to be abs (the pipe it was glued into was pvc) to which the discharge line was hose clamped to.

I don't know if the other types work or not but I know that the type that add salt have plenty of problems too.

As far as the electromagnetic type only being smoke and mirrors I think everyone should consider this, "15 years ago" if you owned a cell phone it was most certainly of an analog type and you probably needed a suitcase to carry it around in but the technology progressed to what we have today. Is it unreasonable to think that this technology even if it has been flawed in the past can't progress as well?

I do, for the record, have an interest in this. I represent no company but my own but as a plumbing service provider I would love to offer something that works and does'nt require the addition of chemicals. If it does'nt work then I don't want it because it only makes me look bad but if it does or maybe one day soon will, what a great product.

Bob NH
11-11-2007, 07:43 PM
I must say, what a bunch of old dogs that can't learn new tricks. Although the abundance of scammer products clearly pollutes the pool.

Lifespeed

If this is such a great technology, why don't you give us some links to the PRODUCTS that anyone has for sale, with the specifications for the warranted performance?

smellslike$tome
11-11-2007, 07:58 PM
If this is such a great technology, why don't you give us some links to the PRODUCTS that anyone has for sale, with the specifications for the warranted performance?

Did I miss something? Did'nt he do that already?

Bob NH
11-12-2007, 05:49 AM
Did I miss something? Did'nt he do that already?

I checked the links and found words without a single specification of what the product does and is warranted to do. What does the product do to the water that is measurable, and how does that relate to improvement of a condition that is causing a problem? What are the properties that I can measure to determine if it is working? What are the operating conditions over which it is warranted to perform?

The text material describing the process is not even literate in the languge of water treatment. If the idiot doesn't know the difference between "cautions" and "cations" then he knows nothing about water treatment and is selling "snake oil".

"The polarized cautions, such as calcium and magnesium, associate (micro) electrically in a water solution with other complementary particles (anions) in the form of ionic conglomerates and continue their way with the water flow." http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html

Wet_Boots
11-12-2007, 06:24 AM
just another bunch of crapola - if you spend anything at all on removing minerals from your water supply, use traditional water-softeners and the like

a variation on this theme could always be found in the pages of Popular Mechanics, for this or that miracle scheme to increase your gas mileage

sjsmithjr
11-12-2007, 06:30 AM
The Corps of Engineers took a look at this technology a few years after the DOE paper. Here's a snip from the conclusions section of their paper:

"These findings do not support the claims of the manufacturers regarding the ability of their respective devices to prevent mineral scale formation..."

Sam Smith
Knoxville, TN

Furd
11-12-2007, 04:55 PM
You tellem Furd!!!

Umm, who is em and what exactly am I supposed to tell?

The link I previously supplied was concerning a system know as a Dolphin. This is a proprietary system that uses a pulsed electromagnet. It was installed on an "open" cooling tower serving the cooling needs of four centrifugal air compressors in an industrial facility.

As I recall, the installed cost of this system was more than $15,000 and the operating costs, even with electricity at less than five cents per kilowatt hour, were not inconsequential. It was found that under closely controlled (with a minimum of additional chemical treatment) and using relatively soft (but not zero-hardness "softened") make-up water the Dolphin system could minimize corrosion and scaling.

This does NOT translate as a substitute for residential water-softening systems either on a cost-effective basis OR as a better control.

Herk
11-12-2007, 05:18 PM
It would probably be a good idea at this point to inject a simple fact. Any chemists are welcome to rebut me, because I always like to learn. Simply, magnets work on iron, boron, neodymium. They do not work on calcium, sodium, or other flavors of rock. There is nothing in drinking water that can be affected by a magnet.

From this page (http://science.howstuffworks.com/magnet4.htm):

"Some proponents also suggest the use of magnets to reduce hard water in homes. According to product manufacturers, large magnets can reduce the level of hard water scale by eliminating ferromagnetic hard-water minerals. However, the minerals that generally cause hard water are not ferromagnetic. A two-year Consumer Reports study also suggests that treating incoming water with magnets does not change the amount of scale buildup in a household water heater."

Dunbar Plumbing
11-12-2007, 05:25 PM
"em" is the viewing public and you answered your own question regarding what to tell "em"....


which is the fact that the system you spoke of was $15 grand (out of touch with the majority) and shouldn't be used as a substitute.


I get customers all the time that are too lazy to maintain a water softener. They'll drag a huge bag of kitty litter to their basement but mention salt and won't do it.

Furd
11-12-2007, 06:38 PM
I get customers all the time that are too lazy to maintain a water softener. They'll drag a huge bag of kitty litter to their basement but mention salt and won't do it.

I gotta laugh at that. At my last job we bought salt for the softeners about every three months. Two tons at a time. :D

theelviscerator
11-12-2007, 10:02 PM
My fav line was the term "micro" elements.....


balderdash!

StationaryEngineer
11-04-2008, 05:04 PM
I gotta laugh at that. At my last job we bought salt for the softeners about every three months. Two tons at a time. :D

I'm guessing the chemicals Not used on the "Dolphin" installation just about balance out the installation cost in a year. So the 15,000 $ cost is reasonable for that installation, IF ... it works.


I DO NOT sell or profit from the sale of any of these devices.

Since ... everything is made up of atoms that have electrons. Some materials have "extra" electrons, and some have places for "extra" electrons to bond to.

anything to get those bonds to happen in a way other than scaling out and fouling equipment may be desirable. IF there is a way to play with the molecule's charge and get them to stick together in a group that no longer has the wish / ability to become scale...... that would mean less harmful and expensive chemicals used to combat scale.

"Magnetic Water Treatment" can work. LIMITEDLY. I've seen it. Too many expect it to do things it doesn't do.!.!.

There are many applications that are not good ones. The charge manipulation makes it possible for reactions to happen, doesn't force them, and if the reaction doesn't happen before the "charge" dissipates it reverts to working the old way.
That's probably why magnetic treatment seems to be finding more places it works within systems that are once thru or recirculating within a limited time frame. (probably a few hours maximum.) When cooling tower water comes back and gets treated again and again the scaling components can actually agglomerate large enough to be separated / filtered out ... and that's good.
I personally am still looking for how to apply this to boiler water treatment. I have to add chemicals to control scale, corrosion, and then more chemicals to handle whats left over from the chemical treatment... and then blow down some of the boiler's water to keep it from being too concentrated. It's expensive, and I'm open for ways to reduce expenses.

Redwood
11-04-2008, 09:32 PM
I want one that has flashing LED's like this so I know it's working.

Freakin Disco Water Conditioning (http://www.whelen.com/media/products/LINZ6.htm)

The more it flashes the harder these electrons are working...:D

nhmaster
11-05-2008, 04:21 AM
The biggest problem is even if the magnets could precipitate enough of the minerals to make a differance, you still have to do something with them. In traditional softeners they adhere to the resin bed and are later flushed. In the Magnet system they still discharge through the faucet. Makes one scratch the old noggin, but you can sell ice to exkimo's if you talk fast enough.

jimbo
11-05-2008, 06:23 AM
First, the claims I have seen are not that the systems precipitate the minerals, but somehow "align the molecules" in a manner that they do not precitate on your faucets and on the bottom of the WH. I am highly skeptical due to the already mentioned fact that minerals are not ferromagnetic.

One company around here advertises that they will pay your sales tax...a $250 savings. That would make the system about $3,000. It is supposed to soften your water and make it taste better. "Maintenance Free" and if you move, unplug it and take it with you!!!


I can tell you that nuclear submarines still use an Ion Exchange Resin Demineralizer for the pure water needed for the steam generators. If there was a better way, money would be no object and they would have it.

nextgen
02-10-2009, 08:34 AM
Hi I was looking up Electromagnetic water softeners for my daughters and up came your NG. So I joined it just to get on this post.
I am an industrial designer and at design elevators.
wikipedia has me at their site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Cali

I don't sell these Electormagnetic softeners, but I can say the one I have works. Yes it is the LED Disco Flashing light one. It cost me $140 25 years ago from Habour Freight. I noticed it is the same price today.

We just moved into our a Bi level ranch in Rockland County NY and water was very hard. My wife is a Physical therapist and has lots of things to wash each day. Nothing would come clean and we were getting dry peeling skin and dandruff. Also the Stainless and chrome was white stained with hard white deposits. Our plumber said we needed a water softer. My wife said she would rather leave it alone then add anything to the water system (she also don't eat meat, ha)!

So I saw the ad for the Clearwave and asked questions. I work for the largest Elevator Company in the U.S. ( Not OTIS ) ThyssenKrupp. 40% of the steel in all cars is Thyssen Steel. I called the plant engineers and they said they use a monster unit for the paint plant and it works.
So I bought it. Also called the manufacture and spoke to the engineers.
THe guy said it is a slow process but it will make the soap work and you will feel the difference instantly. It will also desolve the hard formations after a month or so. All worked exactly as he said. The white deposits just wash away!! He said if you test the water it will look the same but the stuff in teh water will not stick and will pass out the system. He mentioned it changed the composition of the deposits to what is in Pearls?? Also when I had my water heater changed for the 3rd time over the 25 year period we noticed the pipes were clean unlike the first time we removed it.
I actually forgot it was there, till my daughter needed a water softener. The Red lights are still flashing. It is a small unit you tie wrap on the main in - pipe then you have to wrap two sets of wires in opposite directions around the pipe. It took about 5 minutes.
After 25 years I figure I saved about 10 grand and the hassle of deliveries and the room the units take up.
Maybe if my water was harder it would not have worked as good, but now knowing what I know, I would just spend more money on a better unit and they do have them.
Joe Cali
www.nextgen-usa.com
That is my Porsche engine to VW bug and Cali-deco pen site.

Redwood
02-10-2009, 08:43 AM
Nextgen,
Reverend Zombie thanks you for your purchase and testamonial...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/rev-zombies-voodoo-shop-776645.jpg

nextgen
02-10-2009, 10:25 AM
Ha, I see I wandered onto a NG that makes money selling old technology and people just keep sucking it up.

Well once people find out they donít need all that Chemical Water Softener crap your sales will go the way of film Cameras, Tube TVís and buggy whips and real fast.

I know you canít be that unknowledgeable about the new technology and without your fellow Plumbers knowing are working on selling the Electro stuff before the next guy.

I donít sell it I donítí care, just thought I would be a nice guy and give an honest testimonial to someone that did care.

25 freaking years guys Ė IT WORKS!!!!!!

nhmaster
02-10-2009, 01:40 PM
Good God...


SPAM SPAM SPAMMITTY SPAM.......

nextgen
02-10-2009, 04:04 PM
Cool guys stay in your little world. Three posts and I am gone.

I was being honest, nice greeting to a new member.

Wonder if I hold the record for shortest time on this NG.

Redwood
02-10-2009, 08:58 PM
Return it and get your money back.

nhmaster
02-11-2009, 03:14 AM
Not just theorizong here, I have actually done some research on these things. A couple of smallish magnets stuck to the side of a copper pipe will never have enough strength to do do anything. Water moves through the pipe way too fast for them to have any effect at all. There is not one single bit of creditable evidence to support these things at all, anywhere. That seemingly creditable evidence that a short Google search turns up winds up being paid for testimonials and or bogus reports from equally bogus testing institutions. This is not rocket science stuff here. Anyone that really thinks about this can see through the smoke and mirrors. Even if it did somehow bond or align the molecules it does not chemically change the composition of the water. The chemicals that make water hard in the first place are still there and still end up in your glass of water. A red light should come on when you read that a water test will not show any change in chemical composition. Water can not "hide" its composition. Flashing it with a magnet can not possibly change its composition or electrical charge. Like I said, I've done a pile of research on this bogus stuff and it just plain does not add up. Kind of like tankless water heaters. The more you know the less likely you are to get ripped off.

Cass
02-11-2009, 03:35 AM
Common sense says that if they worked every one including the Godfather would be using them and the salt / water softening industry would be out of buisness...

they would be trying to sell Diamond Crystal Salt with the little facets to cling to your food better...

jimbo
02-11-2009, 06:33 AM
Common sense says that if they worked every one including the Godfather would be using them and the salt / water softening industry would be out of buisness...

they would be trying to sell Diamond Crystal Salt with the little facets to cling to your food better...


A company around here advertises heavily on radio, using hype ads from local radio stars. They advertise " no salt, no filters to change" so I suspect it is something like this magnet gizmo. It is a few grand, which is why customers are not beating down the doors!

MikeFromHC
02-11-2009, 11:17 AM
If anyone here actually believes that moving water perhaps 80 feet per second past a small magnet is going to significantly alter the composition of the water, I'm having a special sale on bridges today - two for one sale.

I met the guys who bought the London Bridge (http://www.roadtripamerica.com/places/havasu.htm) They were wheeling and dealing in Baja at the time.
They thought they wre buying the Tower Bridge...

The people selling these water softeners should also sell the magnets that double your gas millage.

A simple solution for them would be to submit to Rand's challenge and come out $1,000,000.00 richer.

TheGreatAus
02-14-2009, 08:57 PM
Im a Ph.D student in Chemistry at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. I first came across this forum when I was researching electromagnetic water softeners, thinking it was a complete hoax, but was humoring myself researching it anyway. This thread has proved quite enlightening.

The original start to the thread had this link: http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf, that reference a Department of Energy (DOE) Federal Technology Alert (FTA). Being a researcher, the DOE is a huge entity that funds a lot of science. I went to the DOE website to see if other FTA's existed; long story shortm, the document in the link wasnt BS. I found many other FTA's that were also quite enlightening, offering a review of some of the best recent technologies for the various topic.

The other link ('electromagnetic' - http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) also had a lot of insight, talking about the actual science of the technology. It essentially lowers the surface tension of the water, allowing solutes to be dissolved that much easier, i.e. keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution and not plating the pipes.

What I dont get, is how all of you can bash people who have bought the materials and have personal testimonies supporting the theory and the science. Its all there. I researched this thinking it was BS and spent a lot of time trying to see if its worth investing in, and it seems like it is.
And remember this about magnets and water, Magnetic resonance imaging is a technology (commonly referred to as MRI) that works on the fact that you can align water molecules in a given magnetic field. These water molecules have dipole moments, a positive and negative end of the molecule that interact with ions such as calcium and magnesium (hard water congeners), that could just as easily be influenced by the poles of a magnetic field.

For those naysayers out there


I met the guys who bought the London Bridge (http://www.roadtripamerica.com/places/havasu.htm) They were wheeling and dealing in Baja at the time.
They thought they wre buying the Tower Bridge...

The people selling these water softeners should also sell the magnets that double your gas millage.

A simple solution for them would be to submit to Rand's challenge and come out $1,000,000.00 richer.

just remember that if I would have told you that splitting an atom in 1939 is pure rubbish, you would have been sorely mistaken if you would have been a Japanese person in 1945.

And for this guy:


If anyone here actually believes that moving water perhaps 80 feet per second past a small magnet is going to significantly alter the composition of the water, I'm having a special sale on bridges today - two for one sale.

look up magnetohydrodynamics, it'll tell ya all about it why it COULD and DOES work.

Dunbar Plumbing
02-14-2009, 09:47 PM
Im a Ph.D student in Chemistry at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. I first came across this forum when I was researching electromagnetic water softeners, thinking it was a complete hoax, but was humoring myself researching it anyway. This thread has proved quite enlightening.

The original start to the thread had this link: http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf, that reference a Department of Energy (DOE) Federal Technology Alert (FTA). Being a researcher, the DOE is a huge entity that funds a lot of science. I went to the DOE website to see if other FTA's existed; long story shortm, the document in the link wasnt BS. I found many other FTA's that were also quite enlightening, offering a review of some of the best recent technologies for the various topic.

The other link ('electromagnetic' - http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) also had a lot of insight, talking about the actual science of the technology. It essentially lowers the surface tension of the water, allowing solutes to be dissolved that much easier, i.e. keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution and not plating the pipes.

What I dont get, is how all of you can bash people who have bought the materials and have personal testimonies supporting the theory and the science. Its all there. I researched this thinking it was BS and spent a lot of time trying to see if its worth investing in, and it seems like it is.
And remember this about magnets and water, Magnetic resonance imaging is a technology (commonly referred to as MRI) that works on the fact that you can align water molecules in a given magnetic field. These water molecules have dipole moments, a positive and negative end of the molecule that interact with ions such as calcium and magnesium (hard water congeners), that could just as easily be influenced by the poles of a magnetic field.

For those naysayers out there



just remember that if I would have told you that splitting an atom in 1939 is pure rubbish, you would have been sorely mistaken if you would have been a Japanese person in 1945.

And for this guy:



look up magnetohydrodynamics, it'll tell ya all about it why it COULD and DOES work.



Um, no. What you're studying in a controlled lab test against real world symantics, are two entirely different realms of thinking.

There's so much hocus pocus to the belief that you can hook a magnet to a water line is because everybody including the senior citizen on welfare on the second floor above a chinese voodoo shop has the ability to sell something that promises effective use, but once that sale is done and over with, it's someone elses bag to carry.

Since you're highly intelligent on these matters, I would like you to contact the makers of such products and offer a 30 day trial offer on all of these products, no credit card needed, no shipping charges, no NOTHING. Just send the product and let it be used to see if there's really any truth to the product.


Best way to prove this theory, is to plant these products out there like some of them are placebos...so the talent of knowing if it is a mental state of being or a true physical one with results, just like the fancy websites promise.

Of course, if you're so sure of your own product, this should be an ample opportunity to "step up to the plate" and let us, the unknowing bunch to see firsthand what the truth is about these products.

We've subjected a few people that have come here speaking on behalf of their product, and when they get cornered with asking for specific information...

they tend to disappear and never come back. Are we harsh? I don't think so. I think we as a cautious bunch could be made believers overnight if what you say and what it does are the exact same thing.

But up to this point, and your one solo posting, nothing has changed here on the reality front.

I'm asking you, TheGreatAus, to forever change my life and my way of thinking about these quick methods of making my water do things never thought imaginable beyond my wildest dreams, envisioning myself in a foreign land enjoying tea, sitting in a tub that provides me the softest water imaginable.

Please tell me you found me on the internet, to rescue me, once and for all from the horrid and devastating hard water that affects me deeply.


I want to believe, just like you...

Cass
02-15-2009, 03:03 AM
The very few water heaters that I have changed out over the years, that had earth magnets or electric field type from wire wrapping hooked up to the incoming water line, still had a ton of lime, Ect. in the bottom and that...in my NSHO...had led to the premature failure of the heater...sooooo....now what....

nhmaster
02-15-2009, 06:46 AM
Let's assume that it does if fact actually keep the minerals in solution so that they do not "plate" the piping. The major reason for softening water is to remove the deposits from the end use, I.E. what comes out the faucet. What comes out the faucet is still hard water. However, those that wish to lay out a couple grand for a couple 10 dollar magnets are certainly free to do so.

CarlH
02-15-2009, 07:12 AM
Im a Ph.D student in Chemistry at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. I first came across this forum when I was researching electromagnetic water softeners, thinking it was a complete hoax, but was humoring myself researching it anyway. This thread has proved quite enlightening.

As a PhD student, you should work a little more on your critical thinking skills. Has any of your research turned up any research papers that have been peer reviewed? Have you conducted any empirical testing of your own under controlled conditions? Perhaps you can work this research and testing into your quest for your PhD.



The original start to the thread had this link: http://www.space-age.com/magwater/fta/fta_nonchem.pdf, that reference a Department of Energy (DOE) Federal Technology Alert (FTA). Being a researcher, the DOE is a huge entity that funds a lot of science. I went to the DOE website to see if other FTA's existed; long story shortm, the document in the link wasnt BS. I found many other FTA's that were also quite enlightening, offering a review of some of the best recent technologies for the various topic.


I have a few problems with that link that you provided. If anybody wants to check it out, I suggest that they skip to pages 9 and 10. The suggested applications are for boilers and cooling towers. Also, these require a method to filter out precipitate or you will have precipitate flowing through your water system. Having presipitates flowing through your water system can be bad. I'm sure the plumbers here have changed their share of leaky seats that were probably scratched by some solid that made its way through the water system. I like the part on page 10 on what to avoid. They state, "This technology is littered with disreputable manufacturers." Also, the application noted here is for scale management. Do they discuss any of the other aspects as to why people install residential water softeners?

The biggest problem I have with this document is that it has been retired by FEMP and is no longer available through FEMP period. They went so far as to pull it down from the web site, "At the direction of the program's Interlaboratory Council ... FEMP has retired the following publications. (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/femp/new_technology/printable_versions/techdemo_retiredpubs.html)" Why was that document retired? So, who is it that is hosting that document now? Looks like a snake oil peddler to me.

Look at the results you can get with one of their magnetic water softeners.
http://www.space-age.com/magwater/images/small_lemon1.jpg
Wow!



The other link ('electromagnetic' - http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/hmws.html) also had a lot of insight, talking about the actual science of the technology. It essentially lowers the surface tension of the water, allowing solutes to be dissolved that much easier, i.e. keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution and not plating the pipes.


This one might be legit. No shortcuts with this one like clamping some device to your pipes. It requires a real installation and water must flow through it and it involves filters. This company also sells reverse osmosis systems as well. The statement above about "keeping the chemicals of the 'hard' water in solution", isn't that the definition of hard water? Minerals in solution.



What I dont get, is how all of you can bash people who have bought the materials and have personal testimonies supporting the theory and the science. Its all there. I researched this thinking it was BS and spent a lot of time trying to see if its worth investing in, and it seems like it is.


The bashing comes easy when one of the devices being discussed here is from a snake oil peddler and that the device was tested by Consumer Reports and was shown not to work. Perhaps there are some of these systems that work, but the problem is that the reputation is being tarnished my the multitude of snake oil peddlers that are out there selling these sort of devices that either do not work or not applied appropriately.



And remember this about magnets and water, Magnetic resonance imaging is a technology (commonly referred to as MRI) that works on the fact that you can align water molecules in a given magnetic field. These water molecules have dipole moments, a positive and negative end of the molecule that interact with ions such as calcium and magnesium (hard water congeners), that could just as easily be influenced by the poles of a magnetic field.


Apples to oranges. What about MRIs proves that electromagnetic water softeners work?



For those naysayers out there

just remember that if I would have told you that splitting an atom in 1939 is pure rubbish, you would have been sorely mistaken if you would have been a Japanese person in 1945.


What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Hey, time travel is not yet possible, so I guess that is proof that these things do not work?

While you might be an honest person trying to do some research, citing links to a snake oil web site gives the impression that you might be a shill for one of these peddlers.

jimbo
02-15-2009, 07:50 AM
Hey, time travel is not yet possible, .......


All that is lacking for that is the necessary 21.21 GigaVolts!



In all this discussion, has anyone, or CAN anyone , point to any military or industrial process where this magnetic technology is being used to demineralize their process water?, as a replacement for resin ion exchange?


If it works, then the price will either come down to earth, or no one will buy it. Solar electric panels for your roof do work well, and the payback period on the investment is longer than the life expectancy of the house. That is why only AlGore and Ed Begley are rushing to embrace this technology right now. You can replace a 60 watt bulb with about a 5 watt LED, but that bulb costs $115! I'll wait!

Dunbar Plumbing
02-15-2009, 08:22 AM
I figured it out folks!

He left an N out of his username!

Don't tell me you didn't think the same either!!!

You did!!



Wow! Look at the size of that lemon! I gots to have one!

TheGreatAus
02-15-2009, 02:26 PM
The only real intelligible response to peoples posts is Carl H.'s. And I thank you for that. I can assure you Im a poor graduate student in Salt Lake City that is looking for a way try and eliminate the hard water in my small condo, not a salesman for these 'snake-oil peddlers', just someone wanting to know about this intriguing topic. I dont have the room in my condo for a typical chemical treatment method, so I typed in 'small water softeners' and found a variety of softeners, some of which were the electromagnetic softeners. I eventually found this thread (I know Im repeating myself, but you all apparently are skeptics of my own validity) and wanted to shed light on the topic, as I am as much a skeptic as I am a believer. I had a hard time finding much of anything on non-chemical methods of water 'purifying' (as its not purifying, but rather a method to control scaling, some of you are having a hard time understanding this (see the quote right below)), so I am still somewhat in the dark on specific examples and good science ON those examples.



In all this discussion, has anyone, or CAN anyone , point to any military or industrial process where this magnetic technology is being used to demineralize their process water?, as a replacement for resin ion exchange?

So the answer to your question is no, because its not what it does.




There's so much hocus pocus to the belief that you can hook a magnet to a water line is because everybody including the senior citizen on welfare on the second floor above a chinese voodoo

Since you're highly intelligent on these matters, I would like you to contact the makers of such products

I want to believe, just like you...

I dont believe, Im a scientist, Im trying to understand. And I have sent emails to the manufacturers listed in the DOE link that was in Carls and my own post trying to get some information on their products. I sent them last night, so probably wont hear from them atleast until Monday.


As a PhD student, you should work a little more on your critical thinking skills. Have you conducted any empirical testing of your own under controlled conditions?

This one might be legit. No shortcuts with this one like clamping some device to your pipes.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Hey, time travel is not yet possible, so I guess that is proof that these things do not work?


I disagree on my critical thinking, I have thought a lot on this and am looking for 'experts' on the subject and done literature searches on my own, and have come to no conclusion on the topic, other than it seems you have to have a strong magnet in order to get any real effect. I have not conducted any experiments on this, Im an organometallic chemist and dont have the equipment to perform them, or I probably would. But it is a good suggestion for a general experiment for a collaberation with a civil engineer.

And as far as the last part of the quote, what my allegory was illustrating was that people shouldnt speak too soon, not time travel. If there is good science behind it, it IS legitimate (like evolution, for another example). However, the ONLY good science was in the link of a company selling their own product, however, to their benefit, did reference data collected by outside sources.

And the MRI reference was to illustrate that magnets DO in fact have an influence on water. However, understanding how MRI's work, I still am searching as to exactly HOW the magnetic field would change the surface tension of room temperature water to that of boiling water (the physical property change magnets have on water that some of the links eluded too), which is really quite fascinating.




Solar electric panels for your roof do work well, and the payback period on the investment is longer than the life expectancy of the house.

Have faith in your countries scientists: http://www.mrl.ucsb.edu/mrl/faculty/heeger.html . He's invented cheap thin film solar cells that have some of the best solar conversions yet, something that Wal-mart is considering putting on some of their buildings as an experiment to lessen their own daily operating costs, something I wish all companies would do.

TheGreatAus
02-15-2009, 02:26 PM
I figured it out folks!

He left an N out of his username!

Don't tell me you didn't think the same either!!!

You did!!



Wow! Look at the size of that lemon! I gots to have one!

I dont get this at all....way to contribute though.

CarlH
02-15-2009, 04:31 PM
Im a poor graduate student in Salt Lake City that is looking for a way try and eliminate the hard water in my small condo, not a salesman for these 'snake-oil peddlers', just someone wanting to know about this intriguing topic. I dont have the room in my condo for a typical chemical treatment method, so I typed in 'small water softeners' and found a variety of softeners, some of which were the electromagnetic softeners.

I did a search on that Santa Clarita Water Conditioning company and came up with a couple of discussions. One of them mentioned a small reverse osmosis units that might fit under a sink. The problem with the reverse osmosis is that the water they take in is greater than the water they output. At the moment, I don't remember what they said about the Sanat Clarita units. Mind you that I know very little about water softeners and don't own one.



I eventually found this thread (I know Im repeating myself, but you all apparently are skeptics of my own validity) and wanted to shed light on the topic, as I am as much a skeptic as I am a believer. I had a hard time finding much of anything on non-chemical methods of water 'purifying' (as its not purifying, but rather a method to control scaling, some of you are having a hard time understanding this (see the quote right below)), so I am still somewhat in the dark on specific examples and good science ON those examples.


The problem is that it appeared as though you might be one of those one post wonders and that it looked like you might be supporting or promoting these units.



I dont believe, Im a scientist, Im trying to understand. And I have sent emails to the manufacturers listed in the DOE link that was in Carls and my own post trying to get some information on their products. I sent them last night, so probably wont hear from them atleast until Monday.


They might give you some information, but they are unlikely to have something that fits your needs since they appear to do this on an industrial scale. Good luck in getting information, you might find it difficult getting to the right person.



I disagree on my critical thinking,


Just pickin' at you for providing a link on a snake oil web site. I'm not sure if you knew what else was on that web site.



And the MRI reference was to illustrate that magnets DO in fact have an influence on water. However, understanding how MRI's work, I still am searching as to exactly HOW the magnetic field would change the surface tension of room temperature water to that of boiling water (the physical property change magnets have on water that some of the links eluded too), which is really quite fascinating.


The problem is that it adds noise to the discussion since there is no direct correlation between an MRI and the effectiveness of a water softener.

Assuming that there are some of these units that work and are suitable for a residential application, the problem is that there are a number of disreputable companies selling equipment that is supposed to be using this technology to be equivalent to the chemical water softeners. This has muddied the waters and might make it difficult for you to get accurate information on the subject.

Dunbar Plumbing
02-15-2009, 08:20 PM
I dont get this at all....way to contribute though.




Tongue n Cheek my friend! You are far greater than me on this subject, CarlH is better suited for this duel!



Just remember that I am the hands and eyes that witness the many spent dollars on this idea that promises everything, and delivers nothing.


That's an expert witness testimony to all the fallen victims called homeowners.

If you have something credible, you are facing an uphill battle with the reputation these devices currently posess.

But then again, they still sell these damn things. :mad:

Redwood
02-15-2009, 09:32 PM
All we need now is our 2 self appointed tankless water heater experts Greg Sauls and Laddy Boy to show up lending their water conditioning knowledge to this discussion...:eek:

TheGreatAus,
Perhaps you should move on past the graduate program at the Pleasant Grove Community College and enter the real world. Read at these 2 links below and learn... You will see that you don't have to always be poor. From these 2 links you may become rich in knowledge and it will save you from wasting your precious money on voodoo water softeners...

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html

CarlH
02-16-2009, 04:49 AM
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html

Those two links are the best that I have seen on this topic. Good find. On the other hand, I have not tried to dig up much of anything on the subject. The DOE document mentioned previously that was retired by FEMP is covered at that site and why it was retired.

Cass
02-16-2009, 05:29 AM
The Great Aus....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE

Redwood
02-16-2009, 07:17 AM
Those two links are the best that I have seen on this topic. Good find. On the other hand, I have not tried to dig up much of anything on the subject. The DOE document mentioned previously that was retired by FEMP is covered at that site and why it was retired.

Yea, When somebody can offer a rebuttal to all the points made at those 2 pages...
We'll Talk!

Til then it's smoke n mirrors, voodoo water conditioning, a con game, a scam, or, whatever else you want to call it!

But, one thing for sure it isn't water conditioning...

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html

Most of what you will find on the subject is a bunch of very shallow "Con Artist" websites selling them.

And a few postings on forums like this one where someone initially posts a question about them.
The pro's usually respond with the truth about these systems exactly like the postings here...
Then the original poster switches roles from wondering about them to being "The Great Defender."

Maybe they should just quit the con game and move onto a real product that stands on it's own...
Then they might actually not attempt to rely on other peoples bandwidth for their advertising.

I consider the method used to be...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/spam.jpg

TheGreatAus
02-16-2009, 08:12 AM
TheGreatAus,
Perhaps you should move on past the graduate program at the Pleasant Grove Community College and enter the real world. Read at these 2 links below and learn... You will see that you don't have to always be poor. From these 2 links you may become rich in knowledge and it will save you from wasting your precious money on voodoo water softeners...

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html

Ha! It seems I have the ability to offend people while simply going against the grain and saying largely nothing of an inflammatory caliber. Your links are quite informative. The second link that deals with crystallization surfaces is a field that is dealing with a phenomenon that is largely, well, still a phenomenon and not well understood. I wont touch that topic since none of what I have talked about actually dealt with that.

This paper, C. Gabrielli, R. Jaouhari, G. Maurin and M. Keddam, Magnetic water treatment for scale prevention, Wat. Res. 35 (2001) 3249-3259, that was referenced in this link http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ref3.html#r259 of your first link, states this:

'Many tests mainly utilizing single pass systems, however, have proved negative [212]. Recirculatory systems, with prolonged magnetic exposure, give more supportive results. Rapid movement (1200 rpm) in a strong magnetic field (4.75 T) had a significant effect compared with the movement or field alone [105]'
and this...
'This study also showed an optimum in the flow rate as at too high a flow rate the magnetic field was encountered only briefly, an effect recently confirmed [555]. Recently, the presence of dissolved oxygen has been shown important for the production of the magnetic effect for forming aragonite rather than calcite [970], and for initiating scaling [1046]. It may be assumed that many of the studies described on this page did not control for oxygen content, so their effects may have been moderated by the varying dissolved oxygen contents.'

And Ill let you, mister inflammatory, tell the rest of the audience why dissolved oxygen might be important for this effect (I'll give you a hint: it has to do with oxygens molecular orbitals and where its last two electrons reside in the ground state (ill give you a hint at what the ground state is: its not the excited state!)).

Heres also a statement from YOUR link for clarification of exactly the claim of these systems do for anyone out there who still needs clarification on this:
1. Reduction in the amount of limescale formed.
2. Production of a less tenacious limescale due to a change in the crystal
morphology.
3. Removal of existing scale (3 - 6 months).
4. Retention of anti-scaling properties for hours following treatment.
*NOTE: does NOT claim to remove the hardness*

From the words of your author on his own webpage: 'For some users, MWT seems to be effective in controlling scale deposition; there are too many favorable anecdotal reports to dismiss it entirely.'

TheGreatAus
02-16-2009, 08:41 AM
When I got into work today, yes, on presidents day, I decided to use the resources that are available to graduate students at the flagship state school the 'University of Utah', or rather, Pleasant Grove Community College as its so often referred to in the Valley. What I found when typing in 'magnetic water treatment' was a variety of articles where people have actually studied the effect water has on aragonite and its precipitation. Here is the doi (document object identifier or something to that accord) 10.1016/j.ces.2006.12.051 (just cut and paste it into in the search bar of the doi website (http://www.doi.org/), though YOU all might have to pay for it. If you'd like a copy, contact me personally and I will send you the article via email). For the bibliography, here is that as well (*note: this article was written recently): Chemical Engineering Science 62 (2007) 2089 – 2095.

For reference MWT is Magnetic Water Treatment, youll see it a lot below

Ill cut and paste the important parts of this document:
Experimental:
'Two experimental lines (Fig. 1) were installed to compare the amounts of the scales precipitated in two identical boilers and pipes from magnetically treated (MWT line) and untreated water (blank line). Both lines were supplied by tap water at adjusted input (0.2 l/min) running continuously for three weeks. In MWT line, water was circulated through the magnetic device to intensify its effectiveness and to fulfill the effectiveness condition of water velocity in MWT device, which is from 0.5 to 2 m/s. In our case, the velocity through the gape of the magnetic device was adjusted on 1.25 m/s (water circulation flux 5.3 l/min). The retention time of water in the magnetic field was 0.1 s. The water was heated in boilers from 16 to 70 ◦C. Some parts of the equipment in which an abundant precipitation was expected, such as heating copper-pipe spirals and some segments of zinc-coated steel pipes for hot water conduction, were weighted before and after the experiment. The applied MWT device was constructed with alternately arranged permanent Neodim magnets (Fig. 2), yielding a magnetic field with three maximums of density 0.6 and 0.8Vs/m2 (Fig. 3a). Density curve along the axis at the edge of the gap (indicated as edge axis in Fig. 2) is only slightly lower than
the curve along the center axis. Data in Fig. 3 were monitored by Hall effect method with a microprobe point-measurements (Goriˇcan et al., 2000).
Tap water had a total hardness of 14 German degrees, pH of 7.5, electrical conductivity of 485 S/cm, turbidity of 0.35NTU and concentrations given in Table 1.

Results (the important stuff for conciseness):

'The scale precipitated on hot surface of the heating spiral in both lines. After the lining had reached the particular thickness, it started to crack and husks were accumulated on the bottom of the boiler. Photographs of scales are presented in Fig. 4. In the blank line, scale on the heating spiral was 3.5mm thick in average. On the boiler’s bottom, the sediment consisted of well-formed crystals (diameter 2–3 mm) and scale husks (also 3.5 mm). The outlet pipe was almost blocked by the abundant and compact scale (Fig. 4c). In MWT line, lining on heating spiral was also present, but the amount of sediment on the bottom was much smaller—for about 70%, and it consisted only of husks, which were about 2.5-times thinner than those in the blank line (Fig. 4a and b). Secondly, the major difference was inside the outlet steel piping (Fig. 4d), where only a small amount of powder-like coating was found in L-segment of the pipe inMWTline. It was wiped out easily and its amount was negligible in comparison to the abundant scale from untreated water.
Considering the over-saturation in the boilers, a diagram, presented in Fig. 5, was estimated by Eq. (8) taking the values for the equilibrium constants from Table 2. During the run, inlet and outlet calcium concentration was being determined periodically by EDTA titration. With certain timely variations, the inlet data were 16 ◦C, 1.8 mmol/l Ca2+ and pH=7.5; and the outlet data were 70 ◦C, 1.0 mmol/l Ca2+
and pH = 7.5, for both lines. The concentration varied up to Ī0.1 mmol/l and pH up to Ī0.2. The inlet concentration was slightly below the solubility point (that is 1.88 mmol/l from the isotherm at 16 ◦C); and in boilers, 3.6 higher than the solubility point at 70 ◦C, while in the outflow, it was double higher. According to the outlet calcium concentrations similar from both lines, and the weight difference between the scales, we
can conclude that certain part of CaCO3 was somehow washed away by water flow.'

Heres the best part:

'After the first experiment was completed, two additional runs were performed in MWT line. For the first additional run, the scaled pipe from the blank line (Fig. 5c) was installed into MWT line and then the test was conducted at the same conditions as in the first run. The old scale was gradually disappearing; for about 2mm in 10 days. This result is consistent with some other reports (Grimes, 1988) and with our further
industrial experiences with the MWT device applications. For instance, a pipe-shell heat exchanger was supplied with tap water, which had similar composition as the one in our laboratory. The water was used for cooling with outlet Temperature 40 ◦C. The water was not pretreated properly and scaled up the inner side of pipes in the heat exchanger drastically. After the installation of our devices at the entrance of the exchanger, the scale completely disappeared in a few months. Secondly, an article on reduction in the surface tension of water due to magnetic treatment and hydrodynamic treatment was published recently (Amiri and Dadkhah, 2006). In that report, a circulation of pure and tap water through plastic Tygon pipe affected the surface tension similarly as MWT. To find out the portion of possible hydrodynamic effect due to the circulation on our results in MWT line, we repeated the run in the line with the circulation, but without MWT unit, which was replaced by a blank pass. The scaling was quite similar to the scaling in the blank line from the first run; an abundant blockage in outlet pipe occurred. Some thickness and amount differences of sedimented husks in both latter tests appeared, but these were rather a result of slightly different fluctuations of tap water composition than in the first test.'

For the chewed up version: essentially the MWT still had some scaling, but the degree of it was far less. The large amount of scale that had built up in the boiler without MWT had largely disappeared when the line from the boiler WITHOUT MWT was put into the system that did have MWT.

In this paper, they also analyzed the scale that built up in the two systems by cross section morphology, i.e. a giant microscope of the crystals. The crystals from the MWT system were similar, though the sizes of the crystals were MUCH smaller than those crystals found in the boiler that didnt have MWT treatment.

I still am leery of this technology, however, I still am interested since I had what I presume to be aragonite build up on the hot water line to my dishwasher that all but made it ineffective. MWT it appears that it HAS indeed caught the eye of the science community, a community that wants to go 'green' and is looking for ways to purify water with as little effort as possible. Then again, this technology DOES indeed threaten an industry that is already in place, so there WILL be lots of naysayers, mainly because it threatens their livelihood. Again, if any of you want this document, please message me and I will send you a PDF of the article from Chemical Engineering Science.

Redwood
02-16-2009, 08:50 AM
So to The Wizard of Oz I say you are grasping at straws...
The one possible thing that these devices may be able to do, is have some degree of effectiveness preventing scale buildup in a recirculating loop system... Possibly... Maybe... :D

How does that have any bearing on it being a water softening device?
To change the composition of water from soft to hard it can only be accomplished by the removal of the hardness minerals from the water. This is only efectively done with the "Ion Exchange" method...

If you do not pysically remove these minerals from the water, the water has no change in it's hardness.

Now the "con artist" AKA: "The Wizard of Oz" switches gears to "Plan B" the anti-scaling value of this device...

In your grasping at straws you quoted this from the website I linked...


'Many tests mainly utilizing single pass systems, however, have proved negative

Show me a house that recirculates it's cold potable water supply....

Give me a break!
Be off with you!
And your con artist friends!

Go sell this idea to an easy mark!
You aren't going to win the game here...
Ya Two Bit Punk!

Maybe play a little shell game...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/the-Shell-Game.jpg

Perhaps a little 3 card monte with another well known con artist.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/bush3cardwg6.jpg

Redwood
02-16-2009, 09:19 AM
When I got into work today, yes, on presidents day, I decided to use the resources that are available to graduate students at the flagship state school the 'University of Utah', or rather, Pleasant Grove Community College as its so often referred to in the Valley. What I found when typing in 'magnetic water treatment' was a variety of articles where people have actually studied the effect water has on aragonite and its precipitation. Here is the doi (document object identifier or something to that accord) 10.1016/j.ces.2006.12.051 (just cut and paste it into in the search bar of the doi website (http://www.doi.org/), though YOU all might have to pay for it. If you'd like a copy, contact me personally and I will send you the article via email). For the bibliography, here is that as well (*note: this article was written recently): Chemical Engineering Science 62 (2007) 2089 – 2095.

For reference MWT is Magnetic Water Treatment, youll see it a lot below

Ill cut and paste the important parts of this document:
Experimental:
'Two experimental lines (Fig. 1) were installed to compare the amounts of the scales precipitated in two identical boilers and pipes from magnetically treated (MWT line) and untreated water (blank line). Both lines were supplied by tap water at adjusted input (0.2 l/min) running continuously for three weeks. In MWT line, water was circulated through the magnetic device to intensify its effectiveness and to fulfill the effectiveness condition of water velocity in MWT device, which is from 0.5 to 2 m/s. In our case, the velocity through the gape of the magnetic device was adjusted on 1.25 m/s (water circulation flux 5.3 l/min). The retention time of water in the magnetic field was 0.1 s. The water was heated in boilers from 16 to 70 ◦C. Some parts of the equipment in which an abundant precipitation was expected, such as heating copper-pipe spirals and some segments of zinc-coated steel pipes for hot water conduction, were weighted before and after the experiment. The applied MWT device was constructed with alternately arranged permanent Neodim magnets (Fig. 2), yielding a magnetic field with three maximums of density 0.6 and 0.8Vs/m2 (Fig. 3a). Density curve along the axis at the edge of the gap (indicated as edge axis in Fig. 2) is only slightly lower than
the curve along the center axis. Data in Fig. 3 were monitored by Hall effect method with a microprobe point-measurements (Goriˇcan et al., 2000).
Tap water had a total hardness of 14 German degrees, pH of 7.5, electrical conductivity of 485 S/cm, turbidity of 0.35NTU and concentrations given in Table 1.

Results (the important stuff for conciseness):

'The scale precipitated on hot surface of the heating spiral in both lines. After the lining had reached the particular thickness, it started to crack and husks were accumulated on the bottom of the boiler. Photographs of scales are presented in Fig. 4. In the blank line, scale on the heating spiral was 3.5mm thick in average. On the boiler’s bottom, the sediment consisted of well-formed crystals (diameter 2–3 mm) and scale husks (also 3.5 mm). The outlet pipe was almost blocked by the abundant and compact scale (Fig. 4c). In MWT line, lining on heating spiral was also present, but the amount of sediment on the bottom was much smaller—for about 70%, and it consisted only of husks, which were about 2.5-times thinner than those in the blank line (Fig. 4a and b). Secondly, the major difference was inside the outlet steel piping (Fig. 4d), where only a small amount of powder-like coating was found in L-segment of the pipe inMWTline. It was wiped out easily and its amount was negligible in comparison to the abundant scale from untreated water.
Considering the over-saturation in the boilers, a diagram, presented in Fig. 5, was estimated by Eq. (8) taking the values for the equilibrium constants from Table 2. During the run, inlet and outlet calcium concentration was being determined periodically by EDTA titration. With certain timely variations, the inlet data were 16 ◦C, 1.8 mmol/l Ca2+ and pH=7.5; and the outlet data were 70 ◦C, 1.0 mmol/l Ca2+
and pH = 7.5, for both lines. The concentration varied up to Ī0.1 mmol/l and pH up to Ī0.2. The inlet concentration was slightly below the solubility point (that is 1.88 mmol/l from the isotherm at 16 ◦C); and in boilers, 3.6 higher than the solubility point at 70 ◦C, while in the outflow, it was double higher. According to the outlet calcium concentrations similar from both lines, and the weight difference between the scales, we
can conclude that certain part of CaCO3 was somehow washed away by water flow.'

Heres the best part:

'After the first experiment was completed, two additional runs were performed in MWT line. For the first additional run, the scaled pipe from the blank line (Fig. 5c) was installed into MWT line and then the test was conducted at the same conditions as in the first run. The old scale was gradually disappearing; for about 2mm in 10 days. This result is consistent with some other reports (Grimes, 1988) and with our further
industrial experiences with the MWT device applications. For instance, a pipe-shell heat exchanger was supplied with tap water, which had similar composition as the one in our laboratory. The water was used for cooling with outlet Temperature 40 ◦C. The water was not pretreated properly and scaled up the inner side of pipes in the heat exchanger drastically. After the installation of our devices at the entrance of the exchanger, the scale completely disappeared in a few months. Secondly, an article on reduction in the surface tension of water due to magnetic treatment and hydrodynamic treatment was published recently (Amiri and Dadkhah, 2006). In that report, a circulation of pure and tap water through plastic Tygon pipe affected the surface tension similarly as MWT. To find out the portion of possible hydrodynamic effect due to the circulation on our results in MWT line, we repeated the run in the line with the circulation, but without MWT unit, which was replaced by a blank pass. The scaling was quite similar to the scaling in the blank line from the first run; an abundant blockage in outlet pipe occurred. Some thickness and amount differences of sedimented husks in both latter tests appeared, but these were rather a result of slightly different fluctuations of tap water composition than in the first test.'

For the chewed up version: essentially the MWT still had some scaling, but the degree of it was far less. The large amount of scale that had built up in the boiler without MWT had largely disappeared when the line from the boiler WITHOUT MWT was put into the system that did have MWT.

In this paper, they also analyzed the scale that built up in the two systems by cross section morphology, i.e. a giant microscope of the crystals. The crystals from the MWT system were similar, though the sizes of the crystals were MUCH smaller than those crystals found in the boiler that didnt have MWT treatment.

I still am leery of this technology, however, I still am interested since I had what I presume to be aragonite build up on the hot water line to my dishwasher that all but made it ineffective. MWT it appears that it HAS indeed caught the eye of the science community, a community that wants to go 'green' and is looking for ways to purify water with as little effort as possible. Then again, this technology DOES indeed threaten an industry that is already in place, so there WILL be lots of naysayers, mainly because it threatens their livelihood. Again, if any of you want this document, please message me and I will send you a PDF of the article from Chemical Engineering Science.

Ya better get back to your studies...
Your getting a good quality education is far more important than this game of 3 card monte you are playing...

As stated in my other post you are grasping at straws with your boiler recirculating loop...

When you are prepared to enter a real world discussion of the effects or, lack of on a potable water system we'll talk...

TheGreatAus
02-16-2009, 09:28 AM
So to The Wizard of Oz I say you are grasping at straws...
The one possible thing that these devices may be able to do, is have some degree of effectiveness preventing scale buildup in a recirculating loop system... Possibly... Maybe...


I just found an article from europe, government funded, that studied the efficacy of this technology, and demonstrated some level of effectiveness, and yet, you STILL have not asked for the document and refuse to look at the actual science. The only Bush like person here is you. That part of the world where the science was performed, being essentially a 3rd world country, would have a lot to gain IF this technology works. So I trust the science that was performed.



How does that have any bearing on it being a water softening device?
To change the composition of water from soft to hard it can only be accomplished by the removal of the hardness minerals from the water. This is only efectively done with the "Ion Exchange" method...

If you do not pysically remove these minerals from the water, the water has no change in it's hardness.

Forthe 5th time! It doesnt have any bearing on the softness device! It's supposed to prevent it from scaling out, thereby preventing lime build up! Do you know what milk has in it? Calcium, also written as Ca+2. Its good for you and your kids. 'Ion exchange' systems replace the Ca+2 with Na. Do we really need more sodium in this high blood pressure society?



Show me a house that recirculates it's cold potable water supply....

With my limited knowledge in the field, its to my understanding that scale build up is a problem at heat exchangers, not in cold water supplies. Why would you want to put this technology on the cold water supply? It wouldnt make sense.

And just to let you know, I make a graduate student stipend (less than 30,000 a year). I do research in an organometallic group working on carbon dioxide activation. I have no ties to any of the manufacturers of Magnetic water treatment providers. Im a scientist, its in my curious nature to look at this with an eye that is neither for the technology or against it, but to look at the science and see what it says. Ive found one paper so far that supports it. Ill find more, but I have research to perform ;)

Reverend Zombie
02-16-2009, 10:03 AM
You aren't doing my cause any good kid.
All you are doing is bringing unwanted attention to my game.
This Terry Love has a big Google presence and I don't want you getting whumped on here coming up in front of my sites on a Google search.
These guy aren't easy marks!
You're not going to baffle them with BS!

Move your pitch to a new venue that isn't so hostile.

Maybe sell a few in the process and make some money.

Redwood
02-16-2009, 10:25 AM
Why would you want to put this technology on the cold water supply? It wouldnt make sense.

That's just it!
They are attempting to market this device as an electronic water softener installed on the cold potable water line as it enters the house just after the meter...

You're right!

It doesn't make sense.:cool:

Cass
02-16-2009, 10:38 AM
B I N G O...B I N G O...B I N G O...and BINGO was his name O

Reverend Zombie
02-16-2009, 10:58 AM
Darn it!
I got here too late!

Kid You aren't qualified to argue with these guys.

A note to the moderators of this forum:
What may I offer you in exchange for deleting some of this thread.
Perhaps leaving it in a more favorable state towards my business.

TheGreatAus
02-16-2009, 11:05 AM
That's just it!
They are attempting to market this device as an electronic water softener installed on the cold potable water line as it enters the house just after the meter...

You're right!

It doesn't make sense.:cool:

Wouldnt it make sense to have a unit like this somewhere near your hot water heater though? If this technology does work, and you coupled it with a small ion exchange system, wouldnt a system like that prevent massive scale build up? Again, I dont know, just questions Im asking. I find the concept of a magnet being able to solvate lime in water perplexing as anything. Based on the papers Ive found, I honestly think that someone could do a PhD dissertation on the science of it, and some people already have. (for Carl)


As a PhD student, you should work a little more on your critical thinking skills. Has any of your research turned up any research papers that have been peer reviewed? Have you conducted any empirical testing of your own under controlled conditions? Perhaps you can work this research and testing into your quest for your PhD.




You aren't doing my cause any good kid.
All you are doing is bringing unwanted attention to my game.
This Terry Love has a big Google presence and I don't want you getting whumped on here coming up in front of my sites on a Google search.
These guy aren't easy marks!
You're not going to baffle them with BS!

Move your pitch to a new venue that isn't so hostile.

Maybe sell a few in the process and make some money.

And honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about. I didnt realize a public forum trying to engage a topic that is shrouded in mystery was attempts at making anyone a 'mark'. Hell, if I would have thought trying to have an intelligent conversation would have received such a violent reception, I would have moved to North Korea so that no intelligent thought would be allowed. As far as I'm concerned, Im doing research to try and prove if this research is even viable, not trying to sell it. I dont even know who manufactures a good unit or what gauss levels and water flows make a unit effective. Stop flaming already, Ive at least brought forward a real scientific paper, something that others earlier in this thread wanted. Now I challenge you rev. zombie: Why dont you bring up something that has credible science to disprove MWT? Im going to continue my search, albeit slow and in my free time, so just wait, ill find more :D

Gary Slusser
02-16-2009, 11:11 AM
Aus, I've seen some PWT and MWT (physical and mechanical water treatment) devices cause a whitish powder on surfaces where the water was allowed to evaporate on but, they are not a substitute for a water softener because they do not remove and hardness minerals.

So I'm with you, there is something changing in water with MWT and PWT devices. The scientific community could care less what like they did about the cause of stomach ulsers, long runout landslides and 1000 to 3000' tsunamis although they could see the evidence but wouldn't believe the potential causes put forth as to why they were happening until some guys in other parts of the world proved their theories beyond any doubt and then, the school books were eventually reluctantly changed over like the next quarter century. It's very much like the liberal democrats here taking us into socialism while the rest of the world is giving up on it and becoming more conservative; it's very self serving.

The formula for added sodium, if a water softener is regenerated with sodium chloride salt, is 7.85 mg/l per grain per gallon of hardness removed. Compared to the sodium content of our food and beverages, a slice of white bread usually has a 120-160 mg of sodium, the added sodium is usually a damned slight amount of added sodium; 15 gpg hardness * 7.85 = 117.75 mg per roughly a quart of that softened water. Drink a quart of that water and eat one slice of white bread per day and you actually reduce your sodium intake tha tday. Skim milk is like 500 mg of sodium per 8 oz glass.

To get any benefit from the calcium and magnesium in water that ion exchange softening removes, you have to drink a large volume of water and that will be enough to kill the average person. We get our minerals from food we eat, not water.

Reverend Zombie
02-16-2009, 11:22 AM
Kid,
I'm begging you to lie low on this one.
He's a link to the site for the stuff I'm pushing.
http://www.santaclaritawaterconditioning.com/index.htm
Yea I know it's a little off it's regular application. Same old magnets with a carbon filter twist.

Come on I've got a lot invested in this and you're blowing it for me.
I made this stuff up special just for the California market.
I've spent a lot of money wining and dining politicians getting the no salt agenda pushed through.

Give me a break will ya?

fredmatic
02-16-2009, 02:20 PM
I guess I might have a little interest in these. I am using one now, and it DOES seem to work. I surfed the net looking into the various units available and found that there are two different modes of operation between the different models available.

Now, my wife wanted some softener because the calcium in our water was 'drying out her skin'. Now, I have literally traveled all over the world, and there is nothing I find more repulsive than the slimy feel of water from a salt water softening system. No, it is NOT the way water was meant to feel.

So, I built a dual mode unit to try out. I uses 100khz to 150khz frequency sweeps AND 1 khz to 20 khz frequency sweeps. I used to have to soak my shower head in CLR every 6 to 8 weeks to get the white crust off it. I haven't had to do that in 6 months now.

I am an electrical engineer and use a digital signal processor to generate the signals I then couple to the pipe via 18 ga. solid copper wire wrapped.

So... it does seem to work for me. I am in the process of installing 6 other units at friends homes and in our cottage.

I do honestly believe this might not be very effective in area that have VERY hard water, but I have yet to test some of these.

Hope this might help to put a damper on the doubters.....but from what I have seem, mine seems to work, (but then again, I designed and built it).

Furd
02-16-2009, 04:05 PM
I'm guessing the chemicals Not used on the "Dolphin" installation just about balance out the installation cost in a year. So the 15,000 $ cost is reasonable for that installation, IF ... it works.
(See original post for additional comments.)

I apologize for not responding to this "one post wonder" at the time but he is dead wrong about the chemical costs. We had accurate records of the chemical usage on the original installation and if I remember correctly it was less than a thousand dollars a year. That would make the simple payback (not including electricity and maintenance on the Dolphin) more than fifteen years. Of course we had extremely tight control of the chemical system due in no small part to a highly sophisticated measurement and control system in which I played an important role in development and installation. I think that at the time I made a rough estimate that it would take close to twenty five years before the Dolphin would start earning the company a real return over the "old fashioned" chemical treatment.

I'll also add that in the original installation (cooling tower on intermittently run air compressors) it was deemed (after about six months) there was no return on investment and the Dolphin system was then transferred to a cooling tower serving a centrifugal chiller that ran 24/7/365 and it was in that continuous operation that proved the Dolphin did work under tightly controlled parameters. However, since this came about after my retirement I can't speak as to any of the details.

As for any residential usage of this technology...sorry, I just don't see it EVER having a positive return on investment, EVER.

TheGreatAus
02-16-2009, 04:59 PM
As for any residential usage of this technology...sorry, I just don't see it EVER having a positive return on investment, EVER.

Haha, I would guess not. I dont generally produce chemicals to make money at home. I mean, im a chemist, meth isnt too hard of a stretch...but yeah, I wouldnt expect a return, other than if it prevented scaling it would save hot water appliances like my water heater, dish washer, washing machine, etc.

williama
02-25-2009, 06:49 PM
Go ahead and buy it, let us know how well it works.

I agree with you Rugged, he should go get one and report.

SPSSALESLV
08-06-2009, 09:04 AM
I have been watching this post for some time and would like to pass along some information for you all about these types of systems. To my knowledge there is only one system on the market that has been tested and certified by UPC IAPMO to work as an ANTI-SCALE appliance. And that is the Sterling ICT series of electronic water conditioners. www.sterlingwatersystems.com
And yes I am a salesman for the product.
These systems do not remove any of the hard water elements from the water supply. They do what they are supposed to do and that is preventing scaling of your pipes, fixtures, and plumbing components from hard water deposits. If you want to remove those elements the best way to do that is through filtration. The best way to use this type of a system is to install the unit with a 5 to 10 micron sediment filter down stream of the unit to trap any of the heavy deposits and then a GAC filter after that to answer the issues of odor & taste for your clients. If your clients like the slippery feel that a softener system gives them then this is not for them because the only thing that will give that to you is a Salt based softener.
Ok, let the bashing begin! LOL!!