PDA

View Full Version : Wiring a Spa. Do I use #8 awg or 6/3 romex slimpull ?



nail bender
10-30-2007, 06:27 PM
Hey guys any help you could offer this fearless D.I.Yer would greatly be appreciated.
I'm getting ready to wire a Spa (hand me down)that will be installed in my back yard. The challenge is how to do it in the most cost efficient way and still be up to code. My service panel is located in the garage in front of the house and the Spa will be located in the backyard opposite corner appx. 95' thru the attic or appx. 120' around the exterior perimeter.
GE service panel not sure of the amp rating (if it helps, it is 6yrs old)
Circuit calls for a 50 amp 230 vac 2-pole brkr and a sub with a 20 and 30 amp gfci brkr.
What are my options as far as wiring?
And my panel only has 1 space for a 120v brkr but, there is a 30amp 240v breaker for the clothes dryer not being used since I am using gas. I prefer to keep it in the case I later sell.
Any suggestions?

Speedy Petey
10-30-2007, 06:34 PM
You can use standard wiring methods INSIDE the house, meaning NM cable is fine. Once you leave the structure you MUST be in conduit with individual conductors, and insulated ground is a must.

Using NM in the house you MUST use #6 minimum.

Mount the panel on the house if possible and run a 1" conduit to the tub.
You can use a maximum of 6' of liquidtite flexible conduit at the tub.

You DO NOT need a ground rod, no matter what anyone tells you.

nail bender
10-30-2007, 07:29 PM
Thanks for replying Speedy Petty.
This next question will reveal my electrical skill level but never fret I follow good instructions. ..So what does "nm" exactly mean? lol. I thought that was your typical white insulation type romex.

Chris75
10-30-2007, 07:32 PM
NM stands for Non-Metallic, the reason some guys use the term NM instead of Romex is because Romex is a trademark of a type of NM, just a very popular type...:D


Just like "Simpull" is a trademark of Southwire, a company that makes NM wire...

jwelectric
10-30-2007, 07:33 PM
Petey

Let’s look at this again,

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and 680.42(B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

Now he said that he was going to install,
Circuit calls for a 50 amp 230 vac 2-pole brkr and a sub with a 20 and 30 amp gfci brkr. Huston we have a problem,
680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.

(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight, flexible nonmetallic conduit, or rigid nonmetallic conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building.

(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.

Once the tub is installed outside then the feeders between the two panels must be in a raceway and have an equipment grounding conductor that is insulated.

As far as the ground rod,
You DO NOT need a ground rod, no matter what anyone tells you. and this includes Speedy.

Chris75
10-30-2007, 07:36 PM
A5. If the hot tub is located indoors, then NM cable can be use as the wiring method [680.43]. However, if the hot tub is located outdoors of a one-family dwelling, then NM cable can be for the indoor portion [680.42(C)]. Outdoors, the most practical wiring method will be rigid nonmetallic conduit and liquid-tight flexible conduit [680.42 and 680.42(A)].

nail bender
10-30-2007, 07:48 PM
OK what about installing a breaker for this when my service panel has only one slot left and a 240v brkr not being used?

Speedy Petey
10-31-2007, 04:13 AM
IMO this is a grey area. That little "panel" is supplied by the spa people. Is it is "sub-panel" fed by a feeder, or is it fed by the spa circuit and split at this "disconnect" panel?

I have done EVERY one of these as a spa circuit. I have NEVER had to run conduit to one of these panels. Maybe this is just my AHJ's interpretation?

Sorry Mike, I personally feel 680.25 is a JOKE.

jwelectric
10-31-2007, 01:46 PM
A5. If the hot tub is located indoors, then NM cable can be use as the wiring method [680.43]. However, if the hot tub is located outdoors of a one-family dwelling, then NM cable can be for the indoor portion [680.42(C)]. Outdoors, the most practical wiring method will be rigid nonmetallic conduit and liquid-tight flexible conduit [680.42 and 680.42(A)].

This goes to prove that even I can learn something new (after three years that this code has been out one would think that I had already seen this)

Thanks Chris

Chris75
10-31-2007, 06:07 PM
This goes to prove that even I can learn something new (after three years that this code has been out one would think that I had already seen this)

Thanks Chris

Don't worry about it, I usually learn alot from you, glad I could give a little back...

nail bender
10-31-2007, 08:30 PM
Thanks guys for the info.
Petey, here is an image of the diagram. I'll try and post maybe this will answer this question. 3125

IMO this is a grey area. That little "panel" is supplied by the spa people. Is it is "sub-panel" fed by a feeder, or is it fed by the spa circuit and split at this "disconnect" panel?

I have done EVERY one of these as a spa circuit. I have NEVER had to run conduit to one of these panels. Maybe this is just my AHJ's interpretation?

Sorry Mike, I personally feel 680.25 is a JOKE.

So do I use 6/2 nm x2,run them together and use one of the insulated conductors as ground, ignoring the bare ground in the nm wire?

Alectrician
10-31-2007, 09:22 PM
6/3 (white=neutral)

Speedy Petey
11-01-2007, 01:29 AM
So do I use 6/2 nm x2,run them together and use one of the insulated conductors as ground, ignoring the bare ground in the nm wire?NO!
As Alectrician stated. You need 6/3. As it specifically shows in that schematic. You need two hots, neutral and ground from the main to the sub.

nail bender
11-01-2007, 03:33 PM
Thanks Aelectric and Petey.
I got confused there for a minute but, that (6/3) is what I was planning to use I just wanted to consult with you all first.
Just went out this morning and bought 6/3 wg romex.
Now about the limited amount of slots in my main panel.
I am planning to replace the two inch 30amp 2 pole dryer breaker with a 1" and use a 1" 50 amp 2 pole brkr in the empty slot to feed the 6/3 conductors.
Any objections with that?

Alectrician
11-01-2007, 04:57 PM
I would twin up a couple of 15 amp lighting circuits and use full size breakers for the 240 volt loads. If any of the 15 amp circuits are RED, avoid using twins on them or get more detailed instruction here.

Pics are helpful.

Be careful dammit!!

nail bender
11-01-2007, 06:12 PM
I would twin up a couple of 15 amp lighting circuits and use full size breakers for the 240 volt loads. If any of the 15 amp circuits are RED, avoid using twins on them or get more detailed instruction here.

Pics are helpful.

Be careful dammit!!

I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say "twin up" but, here is a link to a couple of pics of my service panel. Tell me what you think.


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/hilbutterfly/Servicepanelopen.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/hilbutterfly/Servicepanel.jpg

Alectrician
11-01-2007, 09:27 PM
I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say "twin up" but, here is a link to a couple of pics of my service panel. Tell me what you think.


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/hilbutterfly/Servicepanelopen.jpg
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/hilbutterfly/Servicepanel.jpg

Crap. all the single pole breakers are already twins (or thins). A full size single pole breaker would be half the size of your 2/30 and 2/40.

I'd unhook the dryer and put a 2 pole 50 for the spa and deal with the dryer issue when you sell the house.

nail bender
11-02-2007, 02:46 PM
I'd unhook the dryer and put a 2 pole 50 for the spa and deal with the dryer issue when you sell the house.

The dryer breaker is 2" wide and I discovered that HD has a 30 amp 2 pole breaker but half the width or @ 1".and a 50 amp 2 pole cbrkr 1" wide as well. I was thinking of taking out the double wide dryer cb and replacing it with the two mentioned above.

Will this work for what I am trying to do?

If I try and sell the house it would be ideal to have both features operating if at all possible.

Speedy Petey
11-02-2007, 03:10 PM
This would not work in your GE panel, but you can make it work.

GE panels are weird in that when using skinny breakers the "phasing" is a bit off.
You CANNOT put a two pole 1" breaker in the top spot. The top spot is the same "phase" for the top two 1/2" spaces.
Let me see if I can draw it out..

1a---------2a
3a---------4a
5b---------6b
7b---------8b
9a---------10a
11a--------12a

The uppermost two pole breaker would have to go in space "3a/5b" or "4a/6b"
1a or 2a would have to begin with a 1/2" single pole breaker.

All it would take is some shifting around of some breakers, but you can do it.

Alectrician
11-02-2007, 03:13 PM
The dryer breaker is 2" wide and I discovered that HD has a 30 amp 2 pole breaker but half the width or @ 1".and a 50 amp 2 pole cbrkr 1" wide as well. I was thinking of taking out the double wide dryer cb and replacing it with the two mentioned above.

Will this work for what I am trying to do?

If I try and sell the house it would be ideal to have both features operating if at all possible.


GE MIGHT make a quad breaker (2/30...2/50) which would allow two, 2 pole breakers in the space taken up now by your dryer. That's the easiest way.

If not, you will need the narrow 50 PLUS a narrow 30.

Turn OFF the main breaker and use a meter to insure the power is off. Then you can pull out the existing dryer and four of the single pole breakers under it.

Install the new 2 pole breakers, one in the center of the existing dryer space (leaving a space above and below it) and one in the center of the four breakers below it (leaving a space above and below it), then put the existing single poles back in the empty spaces.

Crap....I coulda done it TWICE by now :)

nail bender
11-02-2007, 05:55 PM
Thanks Petey and Alectrician
I value all your advice and I will follow the given instructions.
Aaand I am sure I will have another question on this very topic as soon as I go to the next step (i.e. sub panel):)

For ex. which sub panel will be adequate for this job ?
I found this inexpensive Rainproof 2-4 circuit nonmetallic(plastic) 125amp box for $18. Any advice on this?

Speedy Petey
11-02-2007, 05:57 PM
I can only assume this would work.
The tub did not come with one? Usually they come with the panel with the GFI breakers already installed.

Speedy Petey
11-02-2007, 05:59 PM
I was asked a question via PM from another member. With permission I'm re-posting it here:


Why can't you use more than 6' of the liquidtite? I got about 12' to go from the GFCI to the tub and was planning on using flex all the way (4x #6, ground included).The answer is simply it is a code restriction.
NEC reference 680.42(A)(1)

nail bender
11-02-2007, 08:24 PM
I can only assume this would work.
The tub did not come with one? Usually they come with the panel with the GFI breakers already installed.


No it did not. This is a used spa handed down to me by a friend.
I will try and find out the spec on it.

nail bender
11-02-2007, 08:26 PM
I was asked a question via PM from another member. With permission I'm re-posting it here:

The answer is simply it is a code restriction.
NEC reference 680.42(A)(1)


I should be ok with the six feet rule. It might end up between 5 -6 feet anyway.

Alectrician
11-02-2007, 10:32 PM
I found this inexpensive Rainproof 2-4 circuit nonmetallic(plastic) 125amp box for $18. Any advice on this?



WTH? I have never seen a plastic panel.

As long as it's an outdoor panel and has your gfci breakers in it you are good.

frenchelectrican
11-02-2007, 11:49 PM
WTH? I have never seen a plastic panel.

As long as it's an outdoor panel and has your gfci breakers in it you are good.

yeah i did see few of them but myself i am not a strong fan with plastic box.

BTW Nailbender., with that box you got there one thing you have to watch out is the room to bend the wire[s] with #6's it might get pretty tight in few spots.

If i know what that box brand name i can able tell ya the fastest and safest route to land the wires.

and if you going to run the GFCI on the plastic box make sure you bring out netural wire but ground wire have to be insluated green wire [ once it get outside of building ].

Merci, Marc

RickD7
11-03-2007, 08:48 AM
I was asked a question via PM from another member. With permission I'm re-posting it here:

The answer is simply it is a code restriction.
NEC reference 680.42(A)(1)

Thanks Speedy Petey,

So solid plastic pipe buried all the way (18 in., right?). Will a 1" pipe be ok for four #6 wires in regards to heat dissipation?

nail bender
11-03-2007, 11:22 AM
Thxs Alectrician & Frenchelectrician

Hey French, here is a link to the box I'm looking at ,. tell me what you think.

http://catalog.geindustrial.com/dataSheet_LC.jsp?PID=190553&PN=TPL412R&FAM=LC&FAMID=228&Lang=EN&CC=MA&Profile=

The only thing the pic does not show is the front cover(or lid)
It covers the whole front and the access door is just small enough to access the actual cbrkrs alone.

Bob NH
11-03-2007, 12:58 PM
You can't run the NM wires outside in conduit of any kind. You will have to use THWN or some other kind of wire that is rated for wet locations. You will usually find that wire rated for THHN also rated as THWN.

The wire you need is #6 for the hot conductors (#8 will actually handle 50 Amps), and #8 for the white and ground. Those will fit in a 3/4" rigid or flex conduit. You may need the 1" if they are all #6.

The load calculations would let you run smaller wires (THWN) but the inspector on a recent project that I did required the larger wires.

Rigid PVC is easy to run and it is easy to pull if you use lubricant. You can connect flex to the end using a adapters and pull the wire through both at once.

Alectrician
11-03-2007, 03:20 PM
I found this inexpensive Rainproof 2-4 circuit nonmetallic(plastic) 125amp box for $18. Any advice on this?


Are the 2/30 and 2/20 GE GFCI breakers you need available? How much??

nail bender
11-03-2007, 05:24 PM
You can't run the NM wires outside in conduit of any kind. You will have to use THWN or some other kind of wire that is rated for wet locations. You will usually find that wire rated for THHN also rated as THWN.

The wire you need is #6 for the hot conductors (#8 will actually handle 50 Amps), and #8 for the white and ground. Those will fit in a 3/4" rigid or flex conduit. You may need the 1" if they are all #6.

The load calculations would let you run smaller wires (THWN) but the inspector on a recent project that I did required the larger wires.

Rigid PVC is easy to run and it is easy to pull if you use lubricant. You can connect flex to the end using a adapters and pull the wire through both at once.


Bob, If I run nm thru the attic and out the soffit down 5 feet to a sub panel, Do I still need to run THWN wire for the exterior 5 feet pre-sub portion?
If so where will I splice down to Thwn?
I know post sub panel I will have to run THWN to the circuit board.

nail bender
11-03-2007, 05:28 PM
Are the 2/30 and 2/20 GE GFCI breakers you need available? How much??

I just assumed they would be available but never checked on that yet, not to mention the price. I usually never have trouble locating things here in the city . I'll let you know tommorow.

Bob NH
11-03-2007, 07:14 PM
Bob, If I run nm thru the attic and out the soffit down 5 feet to a sub panel, Do I still need to run THWN wire for the exterior 5 feet pre-sub portion?
If so where will I splice down to Thwn?
I know post sub panel I will have to run THWN to the circuit board.

I was remarking relative to the comment by RickD7 about burying the conduit 18", without noticing that it wasn't you.

My comment about not using NM is related to the requirement that NM can't be used in any location that is classified as "wet" by the code.

If you have to change wire types you would have to splice it in a box somewhere. I don't believe that a conduit fitting has enough volume to meet the code requirements for a junction box.

nail bender
11-03-2007, 08:07 PM
I was remarking relative to the comment by RickD7 about burying the conduit 18", without noticing that it wasn't you.

My comment about not using NM is related to the requirement that NM can't be used in any location that is classified as "wet" by the code.

If you have to change wire types you would have to splice it in a box somewhere. I don't believe that a conduit fitting has enough volume to meet the code requirements for a junction box.

Oh ok ,I was just planning on taking nm out of structure and run it the 5' in conduit to panel.

Alectrician
11-04-2007, 10:26 AM
I was just planning on taking nm out of structure and run it the 5' in conduit to panel

You can sleeve that portion of the NM. It is an exception somewhere in the code (anybody???). It is basically the same thing they do for rooftop AC units.

ked
11-04-2007, 10:41 AM
3/4 sealtight or PVC 40 will take 4 #6 THHN wires. You could strip the sheathing and run the 6-3wG in 3/4 conduit.

nail bender
11-04-2007, 03:39 PM
Ok
I like you guys to look at this and give me your expert opinions.
The diagram shows the neutral and ground on different bars. If you look at the sub I have here, there is only one bar. I bought a spare bar to install but I would like to consult with you all first. Let me know what you all think.

nail bender
11-04-2007, 03:42 PM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/hilbutterfly/DSC00962.jpg

nail bender
11-04-2007, 03:47 PM
oops the pic may be too small.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/hilbutterfly/DSC00962-1.jpg

Obviously I decided to go with a metal panel.

jwelectric
11-04-2007, 07:41 PM
Oh ok ,I was just planning on taking nm out of structure and run it the 5' in conduit to panel. This is a code violation

3/4 sealtight or PVC 40 will take 4 #6 THHN wires. You could strip the sheathing and run the 6-3wG in 3/4 conduit. This is a worse code violation.
310.8(C) Wet Locations. Insulated conductors and cables used in wet locations shall be
(1) Moisture-impervious metal-sheathed;
(2) Types MTW, RHW, RHW-2, TW, THW, THW-2, THHW, THHW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, ZW; or
(3) Of a type listed for use in wet locations.


http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/hilbutterfly/DSC00962-1.jpg

The flex in the PVC is a code violation

Alectrician
11-04-2007, 08:52 PM
Can you cite the violation?

I am SURE you are allowed to sleeve NM. It is done every day on roof top AC units and to protect short pieces go to eave lights etc.



Tell me you didn't run that pvc down and loop it into the bottom? That SCREAMS homo(wner) !!:eek: It works and everything but it is u g l y.

If you don't have a hole saw at LEAST use an LB/chase nipple into the side.

I don't know if I WANT to see it exiting from the gable/eave:mad:

jwelectric
11-05-2007, 04:33 AM
Can you cite the violation?

334.12 But you will need a code book to read it

nail bender
11-05-2007, 04:58 AM
Can you cite the violation?

I am SURE you are allowed to sleeve NM. It is done every day on roof top AC units and to protect short pieces go to eave lights etc.



Tell me you didn't run that pvc down and loop it into the bottom? That SCREAMS homo(wner) !!:eek: It works and everything but it is u g l y.

If you don't have a hole saw at LEAST use an LB/chase nipple into the side.

I don't know if I WANT to see it exiting from the gable/eave:mad:

Yea I don't have a hole saw .What is a LB/Chase nipple and what does it look like?

As far as the pvc/flex joint. What is a better way of getting it under the sub or is there an adpter to fit it in the main on top that is appx. 2 1/2" wide?
Yea I wouldn't want the work to be obvious that a "homo(wner)" did it himself. : )
by the way the pvc goes thru the eave where it meets the wall.

jwelectric
11-05-2007, 07:45 AM
Yea I wouldn't want the work to be obvious that a "homo(wner)" did it himself. : )
by the way the pvc goes thru the eave where it meets the wall.

You have several issues with the installation.
First and foremost NM cable can not be installed outside even if it is in a raceway.
334.12(B)(4)Where exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness

The transition from PVC to flex needs to be done using the proper fittings
356.42 Couplings and Connectors.
Only fittings listed for use with LFNC shall be used. Angle connectors shall not be used for concealed raceway installations. Straight LFNC fittings are permitted for direct burial or encasement in concrete.
Although the flex fits into the PVC the coupling that is part of the PVC is listed for use on PVC only.

Both the PVC and the flex needs to be supported
356.30 Securing and Supporting.
Type LFNC-B shall be securely fastened and supported in accordance with one of the following:
Where installed in lengths exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft), the conduit shall be securely fastened at intervals not exceeding 900 mm (3 ft) and within 300 mm (12 in.) on each side of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.

352.30 Securing and Supporting.
RNC shall be installed as a complete system as provided in 300.18 and shall be fastened so that movement from thermal expansion or contraction is permitted. RNC shall be securely fastened and supported in accordance with 352.30(A) and (B).
Securely Fastened. RNC shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, conduit body, or other conduit termination. Conduit listed for securing at other than 900 mm (3 ft) shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the listing.

The panel will require an equipment grounding terminal bar for the equipment grounding conductors to land on that is also bonded to the panel itself.
250.96 Bonding Other Enclosures.
(A) General. Metal raceways, cable trays, cable armor, cable sheath, enclosures, frames, fittings, and other metal non–current-carrying parts that are to serve as grounding conductors, with or without the use of supplementary equipment grounding conductors, shall be effectively bonded where necessary to ensure electrical continuity and the capacity to conduct safely any fault current likely to be imposed on them. Any nonconductive paint, enamel, or similar coating shall be removed at threads, contact points, and contact surfaces or be connected by means of fittings designed so as to make such removal unnecessary.

The grounded (neutral) must not be connected to the enclosure or the equipment grounding conductor terminal
250.142(B) Load-Side Equipment. Except as permitted in 250.30(A)(1) and 250.32(B), a grounded circuit conductor shall not be used for grounding non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment on the load side of the service disconnecting means or on the load side of a separately derived system disconnecting means or the overcurrent devices for a separately derived system not having a main disconnecting means.


Also the use on NM cable for this installation can be used for this part of the installation
(C) Interior Wiring to Outdoor Installations. In the interior of a one-family dwelling or in the interior of another building or structure associated with a one-family dwelling, any of the wiring methods recognized in Chapter 3 of this Code that contain a copper equipment grounding conductor that is insulated or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than 12 AWG shall be permitted to be used for the connection to motor, heating, and control loads that are part of a self-contained spa or hot tub or a packaged spa or hot tub equipment assembly. Wiring to an underwater light shall comply with 680.23 or 680.33.

Once the conductors leave the interior of the dwelling
680.25(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.
(1) Size. This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12 AWG. On separately derived systems, this conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 but not smaller than 8 AWG.

The art of electrical installations involve a lot more than twisting wires together.

480sparky
11-05-2007, 08:34 AM
The art of electrical installations involve a lot more than twisting wires together.

Good one! You should copyright that! :o

Alectrician
11-05-2007, 09:07 AM
334.12 But you will need a code book to read it



I think we have one in the office.

Can you cite the exception to this rule? EVERY residential roof top unit in AZ (and I am assuming elsewhere) has sleeved NM. Have all the inspectors overlooked this........ forever?

NM HAS to be allowed in exterior sleeves. I have done it thousands of times and have had it inspected countless times. Somebody somewhere would have caught it. When doing service changes or adding circuits the NM is generally sleeved. They don't consider it "conduit" if it is a sleeve.



Bender. Get a "hub" to fit the top of the panel. It has threads to accept your conduit connector. Make it plumb and strap it appropriately. To ME, PVC looks like homeowner work but apparently it is done a lot. I would use EMT to make it really clean. The PVC tends to warp and bow.

480sparky
11-05-2007, 09:39 AM
Can you cite the exception to this rule? EVERY residential roof top unit in AZ (and I am assuming elsewhere) has sleeved NM. Have all the inspectors overlooked this........ forever?

NM HAS to be allowed in exterior sleeves. I have done it thousands of times and have had it inspected countless times. Somebody somewhere would have caught it.

This is being clarified in the '08 NEC:
300.5(B) Wet Locations. The interior of enclosures or raceways installed underground shall be considered to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables installed in these enclosures or raceways in underground installations shall be listed for use in wet locations and shall comply with 310.8(C)...."

So this reads that if the raceway is above grade, it is not in a wet location.

jwelectric
11-05-2007, 09:58 AM
Can you cite the exception to this rule?

Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

There is no exception.

310.8(C) Wet Locations. Insulated conductors and cables used in wet locations shall be
(1) Moisture-impervious metal-sheathed;
(2) Types MTW, RHW, RHW-2, TW, THW, THW-2, THHW, THHW-2, THWN, THWN-2, XHHW, XHHW-2, ZW; or
(3) Of a type listed for use in wet locations.

The conductors in NM cable have no type marking on them therefore they are not one of these.

jmartin
04-05-2010, 08:33 PM
So did this last disagreement get settled? It is the only question left for my own, similar, spa installation.

Can I run the last few feet of NM type cable in Schedule 40 PVC conduit to my Spa Sub Panel?

Jim

drick
04-05-2010, 10:45 PM
Technically your not supposed to. NM is not considered waterproof and conduit exposed to rain is considered a wet location.

-rick

jmartin
04-07-2010, 08:08 PM
So I have read this post over and over several times but still have this question...

I assume from the information in this post that I can use 6/3 NM from my garage panel to the spa GFCI sub panel (a long attic run).
However the 'romex' style wire that I see everywhere (Home Depot / Lowes) that everyone is calling "6/3 Romex" has a 6 AWG Black, a 6 AWG White, and a 6 AWG Red wire, but the ground is not insulated (well, paper wrapped) and is only a solid (not stranded) 10 AWG.
Is that wire acceptable between the panels? Or do I truly need a wire that has four 6 AWG conductors and all separately insulated (RED, Black, Green, and White)?

Keep in mind that my spa requires only a 3 wire connection from the sub panel, 2 hots and a ground (Red, Black, and Green - those will be 3 independent 6 AWG wires through 1" PVC from the Spa-GFCI Panel to the equipment).

I think I'm asking the question right.

lilricky
07-09-2010, 05:51 PM
Your ground definitely needs to be insulated by code. And remember that the NEC requires a manual disconnect at least 5 feet away, and within line of sight. As for the number of conductors you need, are you sure you don't need 3 conductors and a ground? What model is your spa?

Speedy Petey
07-09-2010, 06:35 PM
In a one family dwelling setting, the interior portion of the wiring CAN be NM cable. ALL of the outside portion of this circuit must be insulated conductors in conduit.

ActionDave
07-10-2010, 10:36 AM
Your ground definitely needs to be insulated by code. And remember that the NEC requires a manual disconnect at least 5 feet away, and within line of sight. As for the number of conductors you need, are you sure you don't need 3 conductors and a ground? What model is your spa?
The emergency shut off is not required in single family dwellings. NEC 680.41

Speedy Petey
07-11-2010, 05:06 AM
The emergency shut off is not required in single family dwellings. NEC 680.41

He didn't say emergencey shut off, he said disconnect. Two distinctly different things.
A service disconnect IS required.

The emergency shut off you are referring to is also required to be not less than 5' away. (NEC 680.41)

jwelectric
07-11-2010, 07:50 AM
Five oclock rush hour traffic and what do I see? A blind man helping another blind man cross an intersection.

What do you think Petey? Does some of the post in this thread remind you of something like that?

Speedy Petey
07-11-2010, 08:08 AM
Five oclock rush hour traffic and what do I see? A blind man helping another blind man cross an intersection.

What do you think Petey? Does some of the post in this thread remind you of something like that?Yup, sometimes. :p

Jim Port
07-12-2010, 09:23 PM
At least no one here is recommending solving the problems with resistors, a switch wired in series with a load and a 100 watt light bulb.

Speedy Petey
07-13-2010, 07:17 PM
At least no one here is recommending solving the problems with resistors, a switch wired in series with a load and a 100 watt light bulb.Don't get me started. :p

Mitchelli
05-28-2011, 08:19 PM
I bought a used spa which has about 10 feet of 6 gauge wire coming out of it (red,blk,wht,ground) in that flexible watertight conduit. So, I need to get a 50 amp GFCI and then there is about 20 feet to a box that was installed when the house was built that is labeled SPA. Problem is the wire from that box to the 50 amp breaker in the main circuit breaker box in the garage is that it looks to me like 8 gauge wire on that run(about 20 feet). So, can you go from 8 gauge to 6 gauge wire at the gfci box outside?(another 20 foot run) Thanks in advance...scott

jwelectric
05-29-2011, 05:53 AM
If it is #8 NM cable then it is only good for 40 amps

cbuehler
06-01-2011, 12:55 PM
Is the 50A double-pole breaker in the panel required? The GFCI mini-panel has a breaker already... can't a guy tie directly into the bus bar? I don't have room in the main panel.

And does anyone know if you have to remove the sheathing on 6/3 Simpull if it's in 1" conduit?

thanks guys!!

jwelectric
06-01-2011, 03:45 PM
Yes you need to protect the conductors in the panel and there is no need to skin or strip the conductors out of the sheathing