Drip Behind the Wall

[kcarmean]

We bought a rehabbed house that is very old 150 yrs old. I doubt the plumbing was replaced when the house was fixed up. We have a drip/leak that happens when we use the third floor shower. We we resealed the shower and that doesnt seem to be the problem. There are no drips after the shower is off for 5 minutes. WE hear the drip behind the walls and we hear it all the way down to the first floor. Is there an easy way to locate the leak before tearing up all of the walls. Do you think the pipes leak throughout the house or just behind the walls of the shower?
We cut a hole behind the shower and built a trap door, but there are no leaks where the shower head is.
what would be the second step after finding the leak. Thank you for your help.

[jadnashua]

Fill a 5-gallon bucket full of water from somewhere other than the bathroom, then pour it down the drain in the shower. If you have a leak then, it is from the shower pan or the drain lines. If it doesn't leak from pouring it down the drain, try again and this time throw it on the wall of the shower. See if you have a leak. If you get no leaks after innundating all of the walls and the shower pan, then it has to be leaking from the supply line.

[hj]

Do you SEE a leak, or just hear it? If you only hear it then it is probably pipe expansion when warm water flows through the pipe and heats it up.

[kcarmean]

We only hear the leak through the walls. It's a drip that occurrs from the third floor and drips down to the first floor. If it is pipe expansion, would I have to replace the pipes or is there a fix for this?

[Cass]

If it is pipe expansion you only need to correct it if the noise is bothersome enough to warrent opening up the walls to find the spot causing the noise and then fix it.

It could be very costly depending on where the problem is.

If it is pipe expansion the pipe is rubbing on wood as it expands and contracts creating the "dripping" sound. You woud make the hole larger or move the pipe so it wasn't contacting wood.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Humorous memory working with a "strict" apprentice who decided to drill all his water pipe holes tight to "keep the pipes from rattling".
He didn't like me much when I had him go back and ream everything.

[Nate R]

Why did he have to ream them larger?

[jadnashua]

PVC pipe expands and contracts quite a bit with changes in temperature. If it is rubbing against anything, it will make noise. Running it through a tight hole is just asking for noise problems.

[kcarmean]

So I took the 5 gallon bucket of water and sure enough I had a drip in the wall from the third floor down to the second. Does this mean it is from the shower pan or the drain lines? If so is this an expensive fix? I have a closet under the shower so I guess I would have to cut through the wall there?
THanks for all your help gang. I'm slowly starting to understand this. FIrst time homeowner!

[jadnashua]

If you are lucky, it is in the drain and not from a leaking shower pan. If you can open the ceiling underneath the shower, you should be able to get a better idea. If it is the shower pan, then usually, replacement is required - there are no topical fixes that realiably work. Check out www.johnbridge.com (http://www.johnbridge.com) for help with tiling.

[geniescience]

if you just poured water only into the drain, then it is the drain that is the problem. Period.

open the ceiling, directly under the drain. Not the wall. Be prepared for some standing water to come out after you pierce the ceiling. Where the joists are, they may be directing water to flow one way or another, and then it drips into a wall cavity. So the noise is in the wall but the leak is accessible from the ceiling.

david

[Nate R]

PVC pipe expands and contracts quite a bit with changes in temperature. If it is rubbing against anything, it will make noise. Running it through a tight hole is just asking for noise problems.

I guess I assumed he meant supply lines, which I was thinking would've been copper.

[kcarmean]

Thank you for your help.
THe shower is over a 2nd floor walk in closet. At some point I'm gonig to open the ceiling. Until then I'm not going to use the third floor shower. I'm not a plumber and I know nothing about the configuration of a drain. Should I seek a proffesional's advice or is there a manual/book I can follow to fix this. I'm trying to save money but I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Kyle

[jadnashua]

You really won't know until you can look to see what's going on. Depending on where it's leaking, it may be fairly simple. It also depends on what the pipes are made of.

[ShannonT]

Before you call in the plumber, go ahead and cut that hole in the closet ceiling, directly under the drain and see what you have.

Oh wait, do you have plaster walls and ceilings? That may make the hole cutting and patching a real pain. I was thinking sheetrock.

At the very least, you could post some pictures and get some advice here before calling in someone to fix it for you. It's always nice to have an idea of what the problem is and how it is fixed before that "professional" comes digging in your wallet.

Please, I have nothing against true professionals that do right by people. It is the fly by night, slap some bubblegum on it ones that just burn me!:mad:

[toolaholic]

Do a search on Ridgid Sea snake.I Have one, drill small holes in walls and ceilings, find that stinker! Plumb supplies have em., Around $250.
Where You live ? If Near S .F.I can help :)

[Livin4Real]

http://www.gearlog.com/2007/10/ridgid_seesnake_micro_your_eye.php

[geniescience]

some like tools, some like fixing what's broke. Both approaches work. I'd break the ceiling, before spending money on a plumber or on a tool. You already know that there is a leak. No plumber will be able to do anything or say anything until he has access to the offending drain pipe. Break the ceiling. You can safely do so without risking being told later that it was "actually" an unnecessary step. Just like ShannonT said.

david

[toolaholic]

Yes I like tools. Been building homes ,repairing them for 45 years. Not to mention union carp and pile buck as a cert. welder.
Now what's Your experience Genie? I see none listed.
If You would like to see how this tool has saved messes ,and money go to RIDGID TALK FORUM. GO TO RIDGID MICRO SEA SNAKE.
And send the cheap shots elsewhere !

[toolaholic]

Thankyou LIVIN 4 REAL FOR POSTING THAT TOOL

[Verdeboy]

Thank you for your help.
THe shower is over a 2nd floor walk in closet. At some point I'm gonig to open the ceiling.

Shower drains can also be viewed from an access panel located behind the shower wall where the valves are. If you don't have an access panel there, you might want to create one.

BTW, to my ears, expanding pipes sound more like a "tick, tick" rather than a "drip, drip."

[jadnashua]

There is no guarantee you'll be able to see the drain from an access panel that allows work on the valve. Since you mentioned there was a closet underneath, I still think it is probably best to take out a chunk of that so you can get a good view. If it has been leaking for awhile, you should also be able to get an idea of how much, if any, rot and mold there is. There are various sized plastic access panels available at the big box stores. If you cut the hole the right size for one of these, you can just snap in the access panel to close it up. It is a good idea to buy that first, so you know the size. If it were in a room other than a closet, you'd probably want to patch the ceiling, but I wouldn't worry about it in a closet.

[kcarmean]

I created an access panel behind the shower valves and I did not see any evidence of a leak. Thanks for the advice on the panel below the shower. I will do that this week. I'm worried because I'm hearing the drip in two different walls. SO I'm starting to think that the drip is in more than one location. But I do know I have one somewhere in the drain so I'll start there.
I'll keep you posted.

[Verdeboy]

There is no guarantee you'll be able to see the drain from an access panel that allows work on the valve.

If the access panel goes all the way to the ground, he should be able to shine a flashlight under the tub and see most of the drain.

Cutting out a large hole in the ceiling below is messy and is time-consuming to repair.

K: Does the access panel you created go all the way to the ground?

[kcarmean]

THe access panel behind the shower does not go all the way to the ground.
So you think I should just continue to make that access panel bigger instead of cutting the wall below the shower?

[Verdeboy]

As I mentioned, a low access panel may be all that's required to find the leak in the drain. Shine a flashlight under the tub, while your assistant dumps a bucket of water down the drain.

[toolaholic]

Either ,4 access panels , Large plaster repairs or a couple of 1" holes to find leak. Ridgid Micro Sea Snake gives only one repair where the leak is.
And NO I get nothing from Ridgid, Just good tools I pay full price for .:)

[kcarmean]

Because of the drips in the wall I started using the second floor bathroom. The problem is when I use the second floor bathroom I'm still hearing drips on the third floor. This gives me the impression that I have more than a leak in the drip pan or drain. Before I start tearing apart the walls, what is the best way to attack this problem. Is there a diagram I can find online that will show me the way my plumbing is hooked up. Is it possible for water to travel through pipes on the third floor to get to the 2nd floor bathroom? For instance when I run the water I am hearing drips above the shower line????
I'm sick just thinking about all the problems I'm going to have.

[jadnashua]

On a house that old, it's hard to say what you have. It may not have even had indoor plumbing when it was built, and all of the stuf was added later. Codes are very different than they were, if they even existing, way back when.

If the plumbing is cast iron (fairly likely), over say the 50-100 years since it was put in, in places, it could very well have holes in it. It could be solid as well. Sorry, but if it is truely drips, then you may need to start tearing walls and ceilings apart to assess the state of the plumbing. What does the stuff look like in the basement? That may give you an idea.

Running a drain upstairs certainly could result in something leaking below it if the drain is defective. It could get quite expensive. If people used chemical drain cleaners, those can create problems, too. A fiber-optic snake fed through a smaller hole might get you enough of a view to try to see what is happening, but you'll likely have to start tearing things apart.

Is any paint bubbling or peeling off of the walls anwhere? If so, then the plaster has likely been saturated, and that might be a place to look.

[kcarmean]

Most of the walls are fairly new, the house was rehabbed when I bought it. So I don't have water stains or damage (YET) THe previous owner must have put new drywall in if there were any problems. I guess I'll have to start at the top and work my way down?