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Rod M1
03-12-2005, 11:45 AM
If there is no hammering noticeable in a shower is it still smart to install SouixChief hammer arresters in the system? Is there any code requirements in new and old installations? What are you recommendations?

hj
03-12-2005, 12:00 PM
A shower would not likely to be where water hammer occurs. Dishwashers, clothes washers, fast closing lavatory faucets, and toilet fill valves are the most likely culprits. If water hammer does occur you can install the Sioux Chief arrestors on the device causing it. An arrestor does not serve any purpose unless it is installed right at the source of the water hammer, i.e., you cannot just install a hammer arrestor someplace in the system and think you have taken care of the problem.

Rod M1
03-12-2005, 01:41 PM
Thanks. I just thought to check while I have it all apart

Marrkk
03-14-2005, 09:51 PM
If you do need hammer arrestor, the old fashioned method of installing a 12 to 18" section of capped pipe above the outlet (using a tee in the vertical orientation) does the job. The beauty is that it has no moving parts to wear out (it works by trapping a cushion of air in the vertical section). Some will tell you that over time these will fill with water, negating their function, but if it happens (you start to get hammering), a quick shut off of the water supply and drain of the system by opening a hose bib or other low mounted outlet will empty the pipe sections and get you back in business.

hj
03-15-2005, 04:55 AM
http://www.siouxchief.com/images/airchmbr.gif

[QUOTE=Marrkk]If you do need hammer arrestor, the old fashioned method of installing a 12 to 18" section of capped pipe above the outlet (using a tee in the vertical orientation) does the job. The beauty is that it has no moving parts to wear out (it works by trapping a cushion of air in the vertical section). Some will tell you that over time these will fill with water, negating their function, but if it happens (you start to get hammering), a quick shut off of the water supply and drain of the system by opening a hose bib or other low mounted outlet will empty the pipe sections and get you back in business

They MAY only refill if the pipes are arranged so them drain completely, which few systems are, and if the air chamber is able to drain the water by allowing air in to break the vacuum produced at the top by the lack of air in the chamber.

Marrkk
03-15-2005, 07:25 AM
The first part is theoretically true (due to high points between the drain point and an area to be drained). However in practice, most anti-hammer pipe sections are high in a wall, and would drain even if water did not completely drain in piping directly below (the water wiil seek its level, to the high point, which is likely below the bottom of the anti-hammer section). As to the water being "trapped" in the capped pipes because air not being able to get in behind it, this doesn't "hold water" (pardon the pun). A 1/2" pipe is not a capillary tube, and the water will drain. As a test, try filling a 12" section of capped pipe, hold your thumb over the open end, invert it, slide off your thumb and see how long the water remains.

Terry
03-15-2005, 09:23 AM
If you have water hammer, then the correct method is to use the hammer arrestors and not air chambers.

Air chambers have required an accesible means of draining them in the UPC code for years.

For that reason, as a plumber, it makes much more sense to install code legal devices and be done with it.

No inspector here would pass off an air chamber that didn't have an accesible means of draining it.
By that I don't mean turning the water off at the house, but rather a drain at the base of the chamber.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/icemaker_box.jpg

Marrkk
03-15-2005, 03:44 PM
Thanks for the info, Terry. My brother-in-law and I completely rebuilt his house when it burned down three years ago, and used the air chamber method (undrained) through-out without any comment by the inspectors. This was in Contra Costa County, CA. We use the UPC here in CA and in CCCounty, so I'm sure it just wasn't on their checklist.

My concern with devices buried in wall with mechanical parts is lifespan and replacement at failure. My house built in 1941 has the chambers, and never a water hammer problem. I doubt if the Souix anti-hammer chambers will last 60+ years. (of course, the tub supply valves in the wall were original and still going strong until I tore them out this year for the renovation).

Terry
03-16-2005, 11:07 PM
If the inspectors in California don't care in your city, that's fine, however I wouldn't suggest that anyone using the UPC codebook try it unless they don't mind doing the work twice.

There are a lot of licensed plumbers here that know plumbing code.

There may be things a handyman could do, and maybe even get away with. It's not something that we would recommend, Questions here tend to be answered as if the intentions is for it to be both legal and inspected.

The reason air chambers have been replaced with hammer arrestors in the code book, is that they do a better job.
Testing has proven that air chambers will fill with water.

"Although arresters are typically tested to 10,000 on/off cycles, Sioux Chief arresters have been lab tested to 500,000 cycles without failure. All Sioux Chief arresters are guaranteed to control water hammer for the lifetime of the plumbing system." Sioux Chief (http://www.siouxchief.com/Frm_MS.cfm)



[/URL]
http://www.terrylove.com/images/mini_resters.jpg
The one on the left is for a washer.
The one in the center can be soldered onto a tee.
The one on the right can be used inline like for a lav supply or an icemaker line.

601.10 Water Hammer. All building water supply systems in which quick-acting valves are installed shall be provided with devices to absorb high pressures resulting from the quick closing of these valves. These pressure-absorbing devices shall be either air chambers or approved mechanical devices. Water pressure shock arrestors shall be installed as close as possible to quick-acting valves at the end of long pipe or near batteries of fixtures or both.

601.10.1 Water Chambers. Where air chambers are installed, they shall be in an accessible place, and each air chamber shall be provided with an accessible means for restoring the air in the event that the chamber becomes waterlogged.

601.10.2 Mechanical Devices. Where listed mechanical devices are used, the manufacturer's specifications as to location and method of installation shall be followed.

Approved water hammer arresters shall conform to the ANSI/ASSE 1010 - 1996 Revision arrester standard (sizes AA-F). Note: the AA size arrester is adequately sized for each application required in this model code.

Since an approved arrester is required by the ANSI/ASSE 1010 Standard to provide continuous protection from water hammer without maintenance, access panels shall not be required.

Other arresters, air chambers or expansion tanks installed in any other part of the plumbing system not specified in this model code may not be considered a substitute for the minimum requirements of this code.
[URL]http://www.siouxchief.com/B_WaterHammer_Code.cfm (http://www.siouxchief.com/B_WaterHammer_Fall.cfm)

slimjim43
03-26-2008, 01:00 PM
A shower would not likely to be where water hammer occurs. Dishwashers, clothes washers, fast closing lavatory faucets, and toilet fill valves are the most likely culprits. If water hammer does occur you can install the Sioux Chief arrestors on the device causing it.

Shower would not cause water hammering? I hear the water hammering early in the morning after the shower is turned off. You think it is caused by a lavatory faucet instead? I already installed
Sioux Chief at the washer and plan on installing at the faucet in the bathroom and kitchen. I plan on using the Sioux Chief that is attached to the water shutoff valve. It should arrived next week, hopefully problem will be resolved.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31yP99gCRoL._SS500_.jpg

Terry
03-26-2008, 02:59 PM
It's more likely something like a toilet.

Can you go in there and check all of the fixtures?
Some fill valves on toilets slam pretty good.
The Fluidmaster can hammer.
The Korky Quietfill is much better for that.

slimjim43
03-27-2008, 07:50 AM
Even if the toilet is less than 1 years old can cause hammering?

Dunbar Plumbing
03-27-2008, 09:10 AM
Water Pressure
Water Pressure
Water Pressure
Water Pressure


What is your incoming static Water Pressure? You're trying to fix a symptom of a problem, not a problem with symptoms.

slimjim43
03-27-2008, 01:02 PM
Water pressure is 50psi.

slimjim43
04-09-2008, 08:07 AM
It's more likely something like a toilet.
The Korky Quietfill is much better for that.

I changed all 3 units with Korky Quietfill and it seem to help a lot.
But the problem still exist, but not as bad as before. The only time the noise
comes on is when unit C is turning off the hot water in the kitchen faucet. I can hear the horn noise in the pipes. I confirm this noise by turning it off myself and I can hear the sound. Anything else I can do?

I think there is air in the pipes. Last December, I had to shutdown the main water to the complex to replace a bad shutoff valve. After shutting off water, I only opened the kitchen faucet to let the all the remaining water in the pipes out. I heard I should had open all the faucet in units to let the water out because they are all connected to the same line. You guys think this is the problem? I was thinking of turning off the main water and open all the faucet to let the water out and close it back up and turn the water back on.