BIG PROBLEM: Installer didn't read instructions!

Montalvo

Montalvo

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On June 18, I asked this forum for some advice on replacing a water heater that provided DHW and radiant heat for my 7,100 square foot house. Based on the advice I got here plus a recommendation from a local installer, I had the installer put in a Phoenix gas-fired water heater/boiler from Heat Transfer Products at a cost of $12,900. It worked great until we got a small cold snap.

I turned on the radiant system for the first time today and as the boiler began to fire up, it abruptly shut down, displaying an error code "FLU", which meant a clogged vent (or a bad venting switch). I read through the installation instructions and discovered that the combined length of the intake and exhaust vent pipes can only be 85'. The exhaust ALONE is 85', when you take into account the friction loss of elbows which adds 5' of length for each.

I have a call in to the installer and fortunately I can rely on a forced air system for heat in the interim. But now that I look at the alternatives for venting this installation, I don't think it's going to be possible to install this unit at my house. So what should I be expecting from this installer? He's already removed and junked my leaky water heater. And at this point I think a unit like the one he installed or a boiler with an indirect tank would be far better than simply replacing the old water heater. But I don't want to get soaked for the cost of the improper installation that this guy has done and I'm not sure how to tell whether he's going to be burying cost recovery charges in whatever new solution he comes up with. And, needless to say, my confidence in his competence is more than a little shaken.

Can I ask for some opinions on what my expectations should be? I'd like to hear from those professionals who might have encountered situations like this with your clients. What would YOU do to make things right in a situation like this? And do you have any recommendations for high-efficiency boilers that could accommodate long intake/exhaust runs?

Thanks,

Bob

P.S. Here's my original forum inquiry if you're interested:

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13748&highlight=montalvo
 
Montalvo said:
... now that I look at the alternatives for venting this installation, I don't think it's going to be possible to install this unit at my house.
Click to expand...

I would talk to the unit's engineers and see what can be done about adding either a little boost at the intake or some draft at the exhaust, or both.
 
Montalvo said:
And at this point I think a unit like the one he installed or a boiler with an indirect tank would be far better than simply replacing the old water heater. But I don't want to get soaked for the cost of the improper installation that this guy has done and I'm not sure how to tell whether he's going to be burying cost recovery charges in whatever new solution he comes up with. And, needless to say, my confidence in his competence is more than a little shaken.


Can I ask for some opinions on what my expectations should be? I'd like to hear from those professionals who might have encountered situations like this with your clients. What would YOU do to make things right in a situation like this? And do you have any recommendations for high-efficiency boilers that could accommodate long intake/exhaust runs?

Thanks,

Bob

P.S. Here's my original forum inquiry if you're interested:

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13748&highlight=montalvo
Click to expand...

The following is not legal advice and I am not a lawyer; but I have had a lot of experience dealing with vendors and subcontractors.

If they get in trouble you must often do something to get their attention, such as showing them that failure to fix the problem may cost them more than trying to get out of it.

I would be careful to keep the existing project separate from any new project.

First, I would give him formal written notice that the installation is defective and give him an opportunity to fix it promptly at no cost to you. The notice should include citation of the manuracturers requirements compared to the deficiencies.

If he fails to promptly make it compliant with the manufacturers standards, at no cost to you, I would serve him with notice of default. I would cite the coming winter season, and the fact that you are without hot water, and give him not more than 10 days to 2 weeks to get you operating. That process will require an attorney.

I would also give him notice that you intend to recover the cost of providing emergency heating and hot water that is required as a consequence of his failure, and/or the cost of alternative living arrangements if that becomes necessary.

I would communicate with him only in writing, unless you are accompanied by your attorney.

It may be necessary to formally file suit to get him to respond. If he is sued it will be necessary for him to contact his insurance company and they will apply pressure to get him to resolve it at minimum risk to them.

I would not plan on any further contracting with the individual. It will get very messy if you try to get him to do further work while trying to resolve this issue.
 
I'm not up to crucifying the installer just yet.
I think Joseph had the right idea, one of three potential cures comes to mind.
- Adding an in-line blower with a relay thats connected to the boiler's 24v circuit (as Joe said)
- Relocating the exhaust to the outside of the foundation at a nearer location.
- Worse case, maybe increasing the exaust diameter a pipe size to decrease resistance.
 
Question comes to mind, asumming you'd been using the DHW loop all along.
Why would the "FLU" come on just now if the hot water has been running all along?
This could be something as simple as a birds nest or a trapped pine cone.
Which means you'd want them to make sure they screen the outlet.
 
the max distance is 125' with a 4" flu. I did not see anything about larger than 4". I would have the installer check things over to see if it not just a minor problem like Grumpy said. You have had hot water for sometime. Just running the system up till now should have caused a problem with the flu. That is if it is the flu
 
Thanks for the ideas, folks. Here's more info...

First, leejosepho, it's certainly worth a phone call to the manufacturer's tech support to find out if they have any suggestions. Good thought! However, I'm not optimistic that a manufacturer would recommend any type of special work-around that hadn't been thoroughly tested by their engineers, given the liability they would assume if something went wrong.

Next, BobNH, I like your approach for handling things if the situation looks like it won't get resolved satisfactorily. Clearly the focus should initially be on putting the ball in the installer's court and letting him know I expect him to make it right. Only after I get his response do I need to be consider what may be needed to protect my rights and you've given me some good food for thought. Hope it doesn't come to that!

Lastly, GP, I've explore alternatives, including increasing pipe diameter and alternate routes for the intake/exhaust. The one with the most potential is using the 8" vertical exhaust pipe that was abandoned from the water heater. It rises about 34', ending in a chimney top alongside stacks from two zero clearance fireplaces. And that's a problem, because the boiler's air intake can't be within 4' of a fireplace exhaust. And using that 8" pipe won't accommodate two 4" diameter intake/exhaust pipes, without which I don't think I can stay under the 85' limit (even if I exhausted the intake and exhaust out the side of the stuccoed chimney, which I'd need to do to get away from the fireplace exhaust). There are several elbows needed just to get the intake and exhaust headed up the vertical stack and the manufacturer's spec requires me to increase the pipe-length-equivalent friction from 3' to 5' when going from 4" pipe to 3" or 2".

The reason that I've had hot water all this time is that the "FLU" warning doesn't come on immediately. The boiler slowly builds up speed and apparently is able to heat enough hot water before the FLU warning shuts it down, assuming that the demand isn't too great (it's an 80 gallon tank). And the boiler restarts after about two minutes, continuing to cycle on and off. But when I tried to use the radiant system, the heat required was too great and the temperature in the tank continued to drop, even with the boiler cycling on and off. The intake and exhaust outlets are both screened with no signs of blockage or intrusion.

Patrick, I just read your comment that I could go 125' with a 4" pipe. I didn't see that in the installation materials but if that's the case, I might be able to make things work. I'll take some additional measurements and see what I come up with. Thanks for that info.
 
Patrick, I'm assuming you went to HTP's site and got the specs...interesting because Montalvo said his manual states 85' as opposed to 125'.
I'd wager he may not have realized he was looking at the specs for 3".
Furthermore, I'd wager there's something stuck in the flu because somebody forgot to screen it.

Montalvo, when you try to start the unit can you hear the blower go on?
OR does it just silenlty give you an error code?

It could very well wind up being a major error on the part of the installer, but for those of you who might immediately jump to that conclusion without prior investigation, imagine what it's like for an installer to get phone calls like:
"I was told by another "plumber" you should have done it this way, I'd like you to come over and redo the entire job, or give me a full refund." - "My water isn't as hot as it used to be, I'm suing you."
 
E. EXHAUST VENT AND INTAKE AIR VENT SIZING
1. The exhaust and intake vent size is 2" for the PH100 and PH130 and 3" for the PH199.
2. The total combined equivalent length of exhaust vent and intake air pipe should not exceed 85
feet.
a. The equivalent length of elbows, tees, and other fittings are listed in the Friction Loss Table 5-5.
b. For example: If the exhaust vent has two 90° elbows and 10 feet of PVC pipe we will calculate:
Exhaust Vent Pipe Equivalent Length = (2x5)+10=20 feet
Further, if the intake air vent pipe has two 90° elbows, one 45° elbow and 10 feet of PVC pipe,
the following calculation applies:
Intake Air Vent Pipe Equivalent Length = (2x5)+3+10=23 feet
Finally, if a concentric vent kit is used we find:
Total Combined Equivalent Length = 20+23+3=46 feet
Therefore, the total combined equivalent length is 46 feet which is well below the maximum
of 85 feet.
c. The intake air vent pipe and the exhaust vent are intended to penetrate the same wall or roof
of the building.
d. Effort should be made to keep a minimum difference in equivalent length between the intake
air vent pipe and the exhaust vent.
3. The minimum combined equivalent length is 16 equivalent feet.
F. LONGER VENT RUNS
1. The maximum combined equivalent length can be extended by increasing the diameter of both
exhaust vent and intake air vent pipe equally. However, the transitions should begin a minimum
of 15 equivalent feet from the water heater.
a. The maximum equivalent length for the increased diameter vent pipes is 125 feet.
Click to expand...


http://www.htproducts.com/literature/lp-179.pdf

good info
I would not mess with things untill you read the full pdf
 
OK, I did more checking...

First, I re-read the spec and can confirm that Patrick was correct. I can have a combined length of 125' if I transition from 2" to 3" at no less than 15' from the connection to the boiler. There are several other conditions that need to be met (e.g., transition should be in vertical section, if transition occurs beyond 15' from boiler connection then the allowable length gets reduced) but I think this can work.

I think the installer can get two 3" pipes inside the existing 8" ducting. He'll have to go into the attic and cut the existing ducting below the chimney cap. Then he can put elbows onto the 3" intake and exhaust pipes and run them out the side of the chimney, ensuring they're 8" apart as required by the spec. It's going to be close to the 125' maximum but it appears it can all get done within spec.

Now, one more question: Should I present this elegant solution to the installer or ask him to propose what he's going to do first? I don't want to play games with the guy but I'm just wondering whether I should allow him to think things through himself, since he might come up with an even better idea if he gives it some thought.

Thanks again for the help!

Bob
 
I would let him decide how to go about it. He might have a better idea. If you don't think it is right then make suggestions. There is nothing worse than walking in and having somebody say "this is what needs to be done". That makes most people get very defensive.

Good Luck
 
Montalvo,
Servicing new installations is par for the course, things happen.
My advice to you, from an installers perspective, DON'T threaten an installer unless he's given you reason to do so.
This could turn out to be something very simple, he could have the option of billing for something that turns out to not be his fault, or he could think to himself "this guy has been reasonable" and do all he can to stay in the good graces of a customer he'd like to keep.

One VERY important question, what size IS the exhaust vent?
 
Montalvo said:
Now, one more question: Should I present this elegant solution to the installer or ask him to propose what he's going to do first? I don't want to play games with the guy but I'm just wondering whether I should allow him to think things through himself, since he might come up with an even better idea if he gives it some thought.
Thanks again for the help!
Bob
Click to expand...

Never propose a solution to the vendor. He will jump on that, do what you say, and if it doesn't work he will argue that you own it.

Suggesting a solution will greatly weaken your case if he doesn't get the problem resolved. He will probably also try to get you to pay for the changes on the basis that you "iniitated" or "requested" the change.

You can afford to be nice to him to give him an opportunity to fix the problem, but if he doesn't take advantage of that opprotunity and promptly fix the problem, then you need to be ready to play hardball.
 
Some good suggestions.

I like your suggestion Patrick and yes, GP, I think keeping things friendly is always a good policy unless or until there's reason to suggest that people aren't dealing in good faith. I liked this installer and would really like to believe that it was simply an oversight on his part.

Regarding GP's question about the size of the exhaust vent, if you mean the old water heater's vertical exhaust vent that exits through the chimney, that vent is 8" ID (steel). If you're asking about the boiler's existing intake and exhaust pipes, those are both 2" PVC. And if you were asking about the LENGTH of the boiler's existing exhaust pipe, the lengths of pipe total about 40' and it has 9 elbows, which adds another 45' of equivalent length. The intake pipe has an almost identical configuration, meaning that the combined equivalent length is currently about 170'.

Many thanks for your help, guys. I'll let you know how things turn out by updating this posting next week.

Bob
 
Assuming it is designed for it, and most closed combustion systems are, I'd rather go the shortest distance outside - through the wall. There are limitations on where that can exit in relation to windows, doors, overhangs, etc., but that is probably the most efficient. Many of the systems also allow concentric vents, and this may help. Another thing to keep in mind, there will be condensation running down the exhaust pipe, and depending on where that is, running it up through the house could be an annoyance, since you'll hear it. On a cold day when my boiler is running, it sounds like a toilet is constantly being flushed with the volume of water condensing in the pipes.
 
Thanks, Jim, but...

In my case, I simply can't get to an outside wall and stay within the limitations placed on the equivalent length by the manufacturer. Going through the chimney, the pipe will run in a chase between the living room and dining room so it would be annoying if it's noisy when we're entertaining guests. Will I get more condensate running down that exhaust pipe than is already being discharged by the condensate collector pipe at the base of the unit? Even so, it's hard to believe that much noise will be generated if it's running straight down the sides of a vertical 3" pipe inside a wall.

Thanks for the heads-up in any case. It's something to ask the installer about.

Bob
 
The longer the run, the more chance it has to condense the moisture out of the flue gasses. As to whether it will be annoying or not, hard to tell.
 
After seeing the actual length & diameter of the exhaust, I'd almost bet there's something blocking the intake or exhaust.
You might want to hold off on the in depth schematics on how he should completely redo the job & pending lawsuit until he displays the suspect dust bunny, bee hive or stray rag.
 
A problem even if there's blockage...

GP, I'd love to believe that this problem could be solved by simply finding something that was blocking the intake or exhaust. But the fact that the current installation violates the requirements of the manufacturer's guidelines still has me concerned. And this isn't like having an equivalent length of 89' when the instructions call for 85'. This is almost DOUBLE the specified length!

And irrespective of whether the installer could make it work with the current configuration, there's a safety issue here that I think should be of concern, too. The only thing that protected me when I fired up the radiant system was the boiler's flue switch. It worked, thank goodness, but I'd like to know that the installation doesn't put my safety fully at the mercy of that little switch.

UPDATE: While drafting this response, the installer called and suggested several possibilities. He said that there could be condensate in the exhaust line that blocked the flow and triggered the flue switch. And in discussing solutions, he said that he could adjust the flue switch to a higher limit in order to keep it from tripping. But when I mentioned that the piping was longer than that recommended by the manufacturer, he dismissed that by saying that, since it was a horizontal installation, that was less of a problem.

I'm going to call the manufacturer to get their take on this. The installer's coming out tomorrow to take a look at the problem. Any other thoughts?
 
Was the installation permitted, and inspected? The inspectors are supposed to verify that the system is installed per the manufacturer's instructions. This, obviously, doesn't. I would request that it be installed per the manufacturer's instructions...unless they can give you dispensation or an exception, something needs to be done. My guess is that you will not achieve proper operations. My guess is that he didn't perform a combustion analysis of the flue gasses, either. If he had, he'd probably find out that the thing was running lean, which could lead to short life and poor efficiency. you mentioned the boiler short cycling to keep the DHW warm...this should not happen...it should turn on, and run until the design temp is reached, then shut off. If it is running, stopping, running, things will wear out and efficiency drops dramatically.
 
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