Help Choosing Toilets For New Construction

[JBreits]

We are in the middle of selecting all plumbing fixtures for our new home.

We are usure which toilets to purchase. Our current home has Crane (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/search.php?searchid=593175) toilets that have had to be plunged many times over the past four years. We really want to avoid this in the future.

We are really only looking at gravity-fed, 1.6 gallon,round front, and normal height (not comfort height).

The toilet that was included in our bid allowance is the Gerber Viper. I saw an online deomonstration video and it looked pretty good to my novice eye. The latest MaP report shows it flushes 600 grams which I take is pretty good?

However, the consultant at the plumbing supply store says she hates her Viper because she thinks you have to hold the lever down for it to flush all the way. She said, in her opinion, Kohlers flush better, including the Wellworth (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/search.php?searchid=593168), which has a low MaP rating.

From what we know at this point based mostlye on price and looks, we have it narrowed down to these options:

Gerber Viper (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/search.php?searchid=593174)
Gerber Allerton (from the Allerton suite)
Kohler Pinoir
Kohler Memoirs (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/search.php?searchid=593173)

We are using the Memoirs suite in our powder room and would like a toilet that matches. We think the Allerton would be close enough to the Memoirs if price and performance were right. The Pinoir, to me, looks to be nearly the same as Wellworth with a little different look.

Anyone have any opinions on these 4 toilets?

Thanks,
JBreits

[Gary Swart]

Have you read Terry's Report on Low Flow Toilets? Just go to the home page and follow the link. Whatever you do, stay away from Big Box store toilets.

[JBreits]

Yes, I have read his report. It's obvious that the favorite is TOTO. I'm not sure it's in the price range and we weren't told it was an option by the plumb supply store.

I haven't found much information on some of these toilets so I was just wondering if anyone else had information about them.

[Furd]

I bought Toto Carlyles based upon Terry's report and the looks of the toilet. I wanted one-piece toilets for their ease of cleaning and I liked the "lines" of the Carlyle, i.e. not showing the contours of the internal trapway.

Although I occasionally do have to plunge (I think it is because my "waste" is sometimes too big and too hard) I wouldn't have any other toilet.

Toilets are a necessity of life and it makes no sense to try to economize in this area.

Just my opinion. ;)

http://www.terrylove.com/images/abak/abak_carlyle.jpg

[Gary Swart]

I just installed a Toto Dartmouth and I am very impressed. I truly believe that in low flow toilets you get what you pay for. Sure I could have gone to a HD and paid alot less than I paid Terry for the Toto and saved a 300 mile drive, but I don't consider toilet problems as a favorite pastime. I wanted one that will last and serve me for many years, and I believe this unit will do that. There are times when we need to bite the bullet and step up to quality at a quality price.

[JBreits]

I figured I'd get several advice posts to buy a TOTO.

Anyone have any information about any of the toilets I originally posted about?
If so, I'd find it very helpful.

Thanks,
JBreits

[SteveW]

Our current home has Crane (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/search.php?searchid=593175) toilets that have had to be plunged many times over the past four years. We really want to avoid this in the future.




I agree with the posts above - just bought a Toto Soiree from a local plumbing supply house (since I live 1500 miles from Terry!).

If you really want reliable performance and want to be able to retire your plunger, heed what folks are telling you. I'm sure Toto isn't the only "good" brand, but from what I read, it seems to have really good quality control during manufacturing. For example, somehow Toto seems to have largely prevented the problem of "slumping" of wet clay in the trapway, which plagues some other manufacturers, and which leads to clogging problems down the road.

In the big scheme of things, it just doesn't seem worth it to me to try to save a few bucks on toilets when building a house. If you chose wisely, you will probably never have to replace them. If you chose less wisely, you'll end up putting up with bad performance
for a good while until you finally bite the bullet and pay to have them replaced.

Incidentally, don't be put off by the list prices at the Toto web site. It lists the Soiree, with Sanagloss, for $850 - I bought mine locally for $***. Still not cheap, but a whole lot more palatable (if it makes sense to use that term for a toilet...)

http://www.terrylove.com/images/abak/abak_soiree_1.jpg
TOTO Soiree pedestal lav, faucet and toilet suite

[Terry]

For a starter round bowl toilet I like the Toto Drake (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5241)CST743S or the WaterSense Toto Drake CST743E

They also make them in elongated, which I will only have in my home.
I never understood why anyone would want a round bowl.

Elongated
CST744S
CST744E

http://terrylove.com/wc/toto/cst744sl_03_paper.jpg

[Gary Swart]

It would appear you are seeking a cheap toilet. There are plenty to choose from, and who knows, you may get lucky and find one that doesn't have to be plunged on a regular basis. Big Box Stores have lots of choices. You know, there may be some reasons why so many of us promote the Toto. :rolleyes:

[Terry]

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4542&stc=1&d=1211864669
American Standard Champion quality control

http://www.terrylove.com/wc/as/champion_tank_lid.jpg
Factory chipped Champion lid that has been sanded, reglazed and sold at a home center.
Why throw away broken lids when you can sell them?

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4043&stc=1&d=1205729186
The leaning American Standard Cadet 3 bowl. I guess that it wasn't crooked enough to be thrown into the reject pile.
Just put this in a nice box and sell it.

[Redwood]

It's funny but all the toilet brands you mentioned are ones that I stopped installing years ago because they were junk.

They may have changed their act but I'm not one to keep checking manufacturers and see if they have started getting better...

I'll stick with what I know is good!
Toto!

[Gary Swart]

It is really unfortunate that while the average person will keep up with changing times on many things, when it comes to toilets they the only names they know are brand names from the 1930 and 40s. Names like Kohler, American Standard, Gerber, and etc.. They don't know how these companies have slipped with quality control and do not represent state of art for the 21st century. Many of these folks have never even heard of Toto, so take home toilets with the once reliable name brand from the junk dealers and then are plagued with quality. They think that clogged toilets are just the price have to pay to have a low flow toilet, not realizing that it is possible to have a toilet that will seldom if ever clog, will be inexpensive to maintain with parts commonly available. I would apply the old adage, "Penny wise and pound foolish" to this. If there is a fault with Toto, I would say it is they do not promote their product to the general public enough.

[gusherb94]

It is really unfortunate that while the average person will keep up with changing times on many things, when it comes to toilets they the only names they know are brand names from the 1930 and 40s. Names like Kohler, American Standard, Gerber, and etc.. They don't know how these companies have slipped with quality control and do not represent state of art for the 21st century. Many of these folks have never even heard of Toto, so take home toilets with the once reliable name brand from the junk dealers and then are plagued with quality. They think that clogged toilets are just the price have to pay to have a low flow toilet, not realizing that it is possible to have a toilet that will seldom if ever clog, will be inexpensive to maintain with parts commonly available. I would apply the old adage, "Penny wise and pound foolish" to this. If there is a fault with Toto, I would say it is they do not promote their product to the general public enough.

yeah toto should market more and on tv it's getting annoying having to explain to everyone what toto is. i always get that three eyed look when i mention toto.

[gusherb94]

then people think toto's some no name crappy brand cuz they never heard of it then i have to pull out a computer and show them toto's website and my videos.

[Redwood]

Funny but there is a supply house I often go to when I need a Toto...
They carry Toto, American Standard, Kohler, Porcher, Great John, Gerber, Gerberit Wall Mount Toilets, St Thomas Creations, & Sani Plus-up Flush Toilets
And probably a few they don't list on their line card...
Well stocked in any case...

Why is it when I ask for a Toto Drake they always say, "You want the good toilet?"

They Know!:D

[gusherb94]

Funny but there is a supply house I often go to when I need a Toto...
They carry Toto, American Standard, Kohler, Porcher, Great John, Gerber, Gerberit Wall Mount Toilets, St Thomas Creations, & Sani Plus-up Flush Toilets
And probably a few they don't list on their line card...
Well stocked in any case...

Why is it when I ask for a Toto Drake they always say, "You want the good toilet?"

They Know!:D

what i said about the three eyed look that's the relatives and people i know that i get that look from. the supply house i go to the counter people's eyes light up whenever i mention toto:D.

[SewerRatz]

I have heard good things about the St Thomas Creations. Myself I like to keep it simple and stick with the good old Kohler wellworth. I never had any troubles with them no call backs saying that they are having flushing issues or anything of that sort.

[gusherb94]

I have heard good things about the St Thomas Creations. Myself I like to keep it simple and stick with the good old Kohler wellworth. I never had any troubles with them no call backs saying that they are having flushing issues or anything of that sort.

i tried out the wellworth about a year ago for 9 months no one ever clogged it but it often smeared and left murky water.

[achutch]

I didn't know about the Toto Drake (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5241) (or much about Toto at all) until I read about it here. I have only seen 3 Toto toilets installed (one of them mine) in this area. I can vouch for the fact that my Drake is everything the professionals here say that it is.

I can also vouch for the fact that those toilets from big box stores tend to have flaws or defects, and can speak from experience, because I also have a Cadet 3 which while works perfectly well, is not flawless (and I had to return 2 bad bowls to the store and have boxes opened so I could find one that was acceptable) and has some cosmetic defects.

I can understand why a professional would not want to install a product that comes out of the box with defects or lacks uniformity from bowl to bowl in the rim holes (which explains why the few Cadet 3's that I have encountered seem to flush a bit differently -- some splash more).

My guess is that most people don't know that Toto exists, and that the best they can do is shop at the box stores (and go home with Crane in a Box, like I saw on several peoples' shopping carts on my first visit to out new Lowe's last Friday).

If I were to replace the Cadet 3 (and since it works and it hasn't failed I won't at this point), I would go with another Toto, perhaps try an Aquia, or one with the Double Cyclone.

achutch in Vermont

[SewerRatz]

The big box store do not carry grade A water closets. They get their hands on Grade B and Grade C water closets.

Grade A = Flawless
Grade B = Flaw that is unseen to the naked eye but can affect the operation of the water closet.
Grade C= physical defect that can be seen by the naked eye.

I had a home owner that called me to install 6 new water closets in their home. They got a great deal on them from the big box store. When I opened the water closet bowls 5 out of the 6 had a noticeable twist to the bowl. The 6th bowl was missing the holes for us to bolt up the tank to. All of them where Grade C that she only paid 50 bucks each for. As the saying goes you get what you pay for.

[Terry]

I've seen customers supplied bowls from Kohler and American Standard that would have required 1/2" shims to keep them from rocking.
I refused to install them.

[SewerRatz]

I've seen customers supplied bowls from Kohler and American Standard that would have required 1/2" shims to keep them from rocking.
I refused to install them.

I will install anything a customer will give me as long as it meets code and no one can get hurt and have them sign off on a form I have that says I do not warranty customer supplied plumbing parts, supplies. In the case of a water closet needing 1/2" shims I would of refused as well.

[SewerRatz]

I have bought 4 American Standard toilets in the last few months from two different stores. All of them have been Grade A (flawless) and work perfectly. The ceramic is perfect, no flaws in the glaze, no repairs, no cracks, no rocking and they sit perfectly level. They are a very high quality product. I am a very picky person and will not accept anything new which has the slightest flaw.

I checked into Toto before buying American Standard and found that they were too expensive and did not perform as well. I bought three cadet 3 1.28 gallon flush and one Champion 4 1.6 gallon flush. The Champion 4 performs so well that I have adjusted the water level as low as it will go to conserve water. It has never clogged and the bowl has never required cleaning.

The three Cadet 3s are one piece toilets and are absolutely beautiful. I will post some pictures when I get around to it. I bought the Watersense version since there is currently a $100 each rebate from my water company. They perform extremely well - no clogs, and no cleaning necessary. The bowl wash is very effective and the everclean surface stays spotless.

I can honestly say that these toilets perform better in every way than the three 3.6 gallon and one 5 gallon flush toilets they replaced.

All four of the toilets I bought have MAP ratings of 1000. I am not aware of any Toto toilet that has a MAP rating of 1000. I think Toto could learn a few things from American Standard.

I am not going to criticize Toto - they make a great product, but I personally prefer the performance, price and quality combination that I got. I have two more toilets to buy and they most certainly will be American Standard.

Well it can be a Grade B water closet and you would have no idea. They x-ray the water closets to ensure that their are no defects in the casting in the parts that the naked eye can not see. Now I am not saying a big box store does not get Grade A water closets, but they will not be selling the Grade A types for 50 bucks.

I never knocked American Standard, or any other brand for that matter. There are two brands I will steer clear from for personal reasons one is Crane and the other is Eljer. They are the only two that make their trap ways with such sharp turns in it that auguring them is a pain at times. Other than that They seem to work well for people that love them brands. If people call me asking for me to buy them a water closet and intall it I come with a Kohler Wellworth, and never had any complaints.

[Terry]

Now that Tom has bought some toilets for his home. he's the expert on toilets.
I sell and or install about three thousand toilets a year.
You have a bit of catching up to do Tom.

I'm just waiting for the flappers to go bad, they do you know.
You've had them two weeks?

I've seen plenty of product that would be good for two weeks.