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hids2000
09-20-2007, 07:41 AM
I need some help with rough in. Attached are 2 pics of what I did.

2924

2925


There are two 14-2 providing power to 4 switches. I labeled each wire it may be hard to see the labels.
One of the 14-2 will provide power to 600watt track light switch and an outside 100watt light switch.

The other 14-2 will provide power to two switches each controlling a 50” ceiling fans.

The inspector came today and left in 10 secs. He said it is not ready, because the splices are not done.

I thought “rough in” is just having the correct wire, making sure the wire is stapled to the posts correctly? When I asked him what it means to have the “all the splices done” he said go call an electrician.

Only thing I can think of that he wants me to remove the rubber sheathing from the NM wires, and splice and wire nut all the grounds and natural together. But since I can’t install any of the switches yet. Do I just leave the black wire alone?

Any help and suggestion is much appreciated.

Livin4Real
09-20-2007, 07:57 AM
Is there a particular reason you can't install the switches yet? Also if you won't be using the angle nails go ahead and pull them from the box.

frenchie
09-20-2007, 08:34 AM
How is that box attached?

jbfan74
09-20-2007, 08:57 AM
I agree with frenchie.
If that box has screws going through it in the back, it will not pass anyway.
What the inspector wants is all the grounds made up, all neturals made up, all the hots, with pigtails made up, and the swithlegs waiting for the switches.

Bob NH
09-20-2007, 09:58 AM
I would screw a piece of 2x4 to that stud behind the boards and drive the nails into it to hold the end of the box in position.

I can't see the numbers but your box should have the volume marked somewhere. You need enough volume for equivalent of 21 wires, 42 cubic inches.

jwelectric
09-20-2007, 10:51 AM
The inspector came today and left in 10 secs. He said it is not ready, because the splices are not done.
The most important thing here is the equipment grounding conductors and grounded (neutral) conductor.

All the grounds will be together but the grounded (neutral) conductors must stay with the circuit conductors do not join all them together.

Once the devices are installed and a cover plate attached these items are no longer visible and would require a good amount of time to inspect on a finial inspection.

A question concerning the installation of the box;
How is that box attached? This is a violation of 110.3(B) as well as 314.23(B)(2) and should be rejected. The wall and back of the box are not strong enough to support the box itself.

hids2000
09-20-2007, 02:08 PM
the box i am using is a Carlon Wall Boxes, Nonmetallic Four-Gang
Model BH464A it holds 64cu" so i got enough space.

One the right side the box has a flange that goes over the 2x4 post which i nailed with two 3" 10D nails. I didn't nail or screw anything to the back of the box. there is in fact about 1" space between the back of the box and the wall.

I will build out the left side of the box with 2x4 so i can use those 2 build-in nails and make the box more secure.

I will take a pic later once do up some of the wires so you guys can tell me if it looks good. I am going to make sure all the ground wires are connected and there are 4 pig tails 6" long each for each of the switches. The Neutrals I will wire nut them together and I will leave the hots alone. Does that sound right?
thanks guys for the info.

hids2000
09-20-2007, 02:20 PM
Is there a particular reason you can't install the switches yet? Also if you won't be using the angle nails go ahead and pull them from the box.


I thought you can't install the switches until i pass the rough in? If I could install the switches than hack I would.

jwelectric
09-20-2007, 03:18 PM
The Neutrals I will wire nut them together and I will leave the hots alone. Does that sound right?
thanks guys for the info.

If you indeed have two circuits
There are two 14-2 providing power to 4 switches. then all the Neutrals would not go together.

The neutrals of this circuit
One of the 14-2 will provide power to 600watt track light switch and an outside 100watt light switch. will go together and the neutrals of this circuit
The other 14-2 will provide power to two switches each controlling a 50” ceiling fans. will go together.

Livin4Real
09-20-2007, 11:10 PM
That's a little harsh. At least he's here for help. Everyone starts out knowing nothing, it's those that choose to read and ask questions that learn something. I'm not an electrician, I'm not a plumber. I crunch numbers on 100,000lbs of freight for aircraft and tell people how to load it so it doesn't go down in a ball of flames. I'm also an avid DIY'er that reads and researches and asks questions so I can learn as much as possible, when I can't do something I hire someone. Criticizing people in a non-constructive way just scares them away from asking questions, so the next time they'll just do what they think they should instead of asking the right way to do it for fear of being berated, then end up multiplying the problem, getting hurt or worse.
I'd step off my soapbox now but I'm vertically challenged and need the height ;)


Brian

ked
09-21-2007, 07:14 AM
I find it works better to label the cables on the blue box parallel to where they come in with a permanent marker pen-other labels vanish when you splice. I always install switches and temporary light bulbs in the rough so I can make sure everything works and provide light for the workers. But not receptacles. I use some old switches and do not attach them to the boxes, they just are stuffed in there at an angle so the wall can be drywalled. The switches get covered with drywall mud and paint, so they are replaced at finish. I use rubber bulb holders, I call them used car lot bulb sockets, for a single light bulb. I hate having to run new cables to solve mistakes at finish electrical. The inspectors usually say, "At least you know it works!"

Livin4Real
09-21-2007, 07:20 AM
you can install switches before drywalling, most have the removable tabs that can be broken off with no impact to the switch. The screw mounting holes are still intact after doing so, just the "ears" get snapped off to allow pre-drywall wiring.

jbfan74
09-21-2007, 07:29 AM
The ears have a purpose!
They pull the device tight against the drywall so the cover will sit flush and you are not using the cover to hold the switch flush.

jwelectric
09-21-2007, 07:48 AM
As a code official I will make you remove the switches before I make the rough-in inspection.

In NC if I catch the interior circuits energized before a CO is issued I will have all power removed.

Bob NH
09-21-2007, 08:09 AM
As a code official I will make you remove the switches before I make the rough-in inspection.

In NC if I catch the interior circuits energized before a CO is issued I will have all power removed.

What is expected in a remodel where the house is already occupied?

I did a remodel that included installing a subpanel that served the water heater, dryer, lights, and several outlets. Most but not all of the outlets existed in the original house. The only thing the inspector seemed concerned about was to verify that the neutral in the subpanel was not grounded.

jwelectric
09-21-2007, 08:58 AM
So there will be a total of 10 ground wires together in a wirenut... 2 from power sources, 4 from switch legs and 4 more pigtails to link to the ground screws on the switches? When would it not be necessary to put a pigtail to each switch (assuming plastic box)?

404.9 Provisions for General-Use Snap Switches.
(A) Faceplates. Faceplates provided for snap switches mounted in boxes and other enclosures shall be installed so as to completely cover the opening and, where the switch is flush mounted, seat against the finished surface.
(B) Grounding. Snap switches, including dimmer and similar control switches, shall be effectively grounded and shall provide a means to ground metal faceplates, whether or not a metal faceplate is installed. Snap switches shall be considered effectively grounded if either of the following conditions is met:
(1) The switch is mounted with metal screws to a metal box or to a nonmetallic box with integral means for grounding devices.
(2) An equipment grounding conductor or equipment bonding jumper is connected to an equipment grounding termination of the snap switch.

jwelectric
09-21-2007, 09:15 AM
What is expected in a remodel where the house is already occupied?

What is being done?

Any new installations would fall under the same rules as new construction.

Do you believe that just because it is remodel work it is exempt from inspections?

Bob NH
09-21-2007, 10:10 AM
What is being done?

Any new installations would fall under the same rules as new construction.

Do you believe that just because it is remodel work it is exempt from inspections?

Not exempt from inspections, but I was replying to your comment about shutting off the power if anything is connected. If I am moving a water heater from the main to a new subpanel in an occupied house, what is the acceptable process for hooking up the essential circuits. Do I have to rough install the circuits, get them inspected, do the final, and get that inspected, before applying power to the circuits?

If I am putting in new wire and a 4-terminal receptacle for a range in an existing receptacle box when I put it on the new subpanel am I supposed to install the cable, wait for rough inspection, install the receptacle, and wait for final inspection before I can cook dinner?

jwelectric
09-21-2007, 11:30 AM
Not exempt from inspections, but I was replying to your comment about shutting off the power if anything is connected. If I am moving a water heater from the main to a new subpanel in an occupied house, what is the acceptable process for hooking up the essential circuits. Do I have to rough install the circuits, get them inspected, do the final, and get that inspected, before applying power to the circuits?

If I am putting in new wire and a 4-terminal receptacle for a range in an existing receptacle box when I put it on the new subpanel am I supposed to install the cable, wait for rough inspection, install the receptacle, and wait for final inspection before I can cook dinner?

It would take more time than I am willing to invest to answer your questions above in their entirety. We both know that each installation you have mentioned above and the manner in which it was installed would warrant its own merit for inspection process.

A very simple rule that most in my area go by is;

If the wall is open anytime during the remodel process then anything new that will get covered by wall board requires an inspection before the finish wall is installed.
With either of the two circuits you mentioned above installed in the wall an inspection of these circuits would be required before the wall was covered.
Should either installation leave the cable exposed for inspection as under a house then the circuit cable would be visible for the entire length but the short run that was fished in the wall.
300.4(D) Exception No. 2: For concealed work in finished buildings, or finished panels for prefabricated buildings where such supporting is impracticable, it shall be permissible to fish the cables between access points.
334.30(B) Unsupported Cables. Nonmetallic-sheathed cable shall be permitted to be unsupported where the cable:
(1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable.

If the subpanel that you mention in both scenarios is new then the panel would need inspection before being energized.

Granted a lot of inspectors will give a lot of lead way with remodel installations but the contractor making the installation is carrying a very big liability if the proper procedures are not followed.

hids2000
09-21-2007, 12:18 PM
You need enough volume for equivalent of 21 wires, 42 cubic inches.

The above got me thinking about over crowding. MY TJI joists have knock out that are 1-1/2" in size. To me there is more than enough room for those wires. Looking at the attached picture am I "over crowding" with the number of wires going though each knock out hole? If so I may as well rerun those wires before the inspector comes back and yells at me again.

Also can anyone recommend some basic books I can go buy and read up on?


2933

Livin4Real
09-21-2007, 02:38 PM
The ears have a purpose!
They pull the device tight against the drywall so the cover will sit flush and you are not using the cover to hold the switch flush.

And if you snap off the ears the switch will tighten up against the gang box. This is helpful for people who can't leave the power off very long on an extended remodel (like mine), allow you to drywall it without having to pull all the switches back out until inspection. I just used a scrap piece of drywall when setting the depth of the box. The switch is just as tight, if not tighter being flush with the gang box.

hids2000
09-28-2007, 06:44 PM
The above got me thinking about over crowding. MY TJI joists have knock out that are 1-1/2" in size. To me there is more than enough room for those wires. Looking at the attached picture am I "over crowding" with the number of wires going though each knock out hole? If so I may as well rerun those wires before the inspector comes back and yells at me again.

Also can anyone recommend some basic books I can go buy and read up on?


2933

So I got a hold of the local inspector on the phone and I asked him how many wires can in one hole and he said 3 wires. Later that day I was thinking this does not make sense at all. Can someone please explain it to me?
Why would the code say you can only have 3 wires per hole without limit the size of the hole? I mean if the hole is 3" in size that is more than enough room for 5 or 6 sets of 14-2 wires why does that cause a problem? I will follow the code and rerun the wire, but I would like to understand the reasoning behind it. It would make more sense if it was the number of wires can only be a % of the hole size.
Thanks

Speedy Petey
09-28-2007, 06:51 PM
Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.

jwelectric
09-28-2007, 07:03 PM
Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.

Me to and I agree with your other part of the post.

If these cables were going through the top or bottom plate then I would look at 334.80

Where more than two NM cables containing two or more current-carrying conductors are bundled together and pass through wood framing that is to be fire- or draft-stopped using thermal insulation or sealing foam, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be adjusted in accordance with Table 310.15(B)(2)(a).

hids2000
09-28-2007, 07:03 PM
Three wires would be wrong in ANY case. Four is the least in most cases.

Most inspectors (correctly) do not consider running cables through bored holes as "bundling". Some do.
Even if this guy considers this bundling you can have up to NINE CCC's (current carrying conductors) before derating is an issue. Four 2-wire cables is 8 CCC's.

If it were me I'd leave that the way it is.

Speedy Petey thanks for your quick answer. I will follow the 9 CCC per hole. My inspector is an old timer I just don't want any problems so running a new hole next to it and rerun the wire is not a problem. But can you explain the reason why only 9ccc per hole? I still do not understand the reasoning behind it, is it for fire protection? and why doesn't the size of the hole play a factor in how many ccc one can fit inside a hole?

jwelectric
09-28-2007, 07:44 PM
310.15(B)(2) Adjustment Factors.
(a) More Than Three Current-Carrying Conductors in a Raceway or Cable. Where the number of current-carrying conductors in a raceway or cable exceeds three, or where single conductors or multiconductor cables are stacked or bundled longer than 600 mm (24 in.) without maintaining spacing and are not installed in raceways, the allowable ampacity of each conductor shall be reduced as shown in Table 310.15(B)(2)(a). Each current-carrying conductor of a paralleled set of conductors shall be counted as a current-carrying conductor.

EDITED TO ADD:

Yes bundling will cause heat

hj
09-28-2007, 08:49 PM
Why do the DIY'ers always cut the wires so short?

That is nothing. A DIY contractor in Battle Creek did his own wiring, and went into one side of the box then straight across and left the other side. After all the drywall and taping was done, he called an electrician to install the devices. The sparky took one look at the job and, after he finished laughing, said he would not even consider it because he would have to crimp splice EVERY wire in the house, and the contractor would not be able to afford him.

Kiril
09-29-2007, 06:59 AM
Not to hijack the thread, but have a related question. See attached photo and comment on if it will fly with the inspectors as is.

jwelectric
09-29-2007, 07:02 AM
Where is the wires?

Kiril
09-29-2007, 07:07 AM
No wires yet, was just curious if boxes in such close proximity to each other would pass inspection without any further fire proofing like putty pads.

jwelectric
09-29-2007, 07:10 AM
No wires yet, was just curious if boxes in such close proximity to each other would pass inspection without any further fire proofing like putty pads.

Are the walls required to be fire rated?

Kiril
09-29-2007, 07:16 AM
Not at that particular location. There is a fire rated assembly required for a duct chase further up the wall.

So am I to assume that by your answer it would only be an issue in a fire wall assembly?

jwelectric
09-29-2007, 07:36 AM
So am I to assume that by your answer it would only be an issue in a fire wall assembly? This is correct.

Kiril
09-29-2007, 07:38 AM
This is correct.

Thanks. That is what I thought, just wanted to be sure before getting called on it by the inspector. :)

Speedy Petey
09-29-2007, 12:46 PM
See attached photo and comment on if it will fly with the inspectors as is.Is there a reason you have all that framing and blocking around those boxes? It's going to be a PIA to wire them.

hids2000
10-02-2007, 11:41 AM
Guys I should have pics uploaded tonight I did what people advice me on and I wire nut and spliced everything in that switch box.

I was talking to a friend who build him own house in PA. (I am in NJ) just talking about how my house is coming along and he came over during the weekend and he said he does not think I can use 14-3 to power a garage door opener. That motors and pumps should be on a 12ga wire. I would like to get some advice on this before I rip the 14-3 down and rerun 12-3 wires.

My plan for the 14-3 is to power a track of lights in the ceiling of the garage total about 500watts. The red (by pass the track light switch) wire will provide power to an outlet in the ceiling for a future 1/2hp garage door opener. I picked 14-3 based on that the sear craftsman 1/2hp door open pulls 4.5amps or 540watt. so my total usage when everything is running is at 1040watt which is with in fine for 14-3. Am I safe here or I still need to rerun the wires to 12-3 just because.

Bob NH
10-02-2007, 11:54 AM
14 is fine for up to 15 Amps. A garage door opener and lights are not continuous loads that would require derating.

Not clear why you are using 14-3 unless you are counting the ground wire. Standard wire would be 14-2 with ground; black, white, and green or bare.

hids2000
10-02-2007, 12:07 PM
14 is fine for up to 15 Amps. A garage door opener and lights are not continuous loads that would require derating.

Not clear why you are using 14-3 unless you are counting the ground wire. Standard wire would be 14-2 with ground; black, white, and green or bare.

sorry Bob, i guess i was not clear enough, i am not counting the ground wire in the 14-3. I have a 15 amp breaker, than a 14-2 to the wall switch box. I than splice the 14-3 into the 14-2. So the track light switch will not affect the garage door opener's power. I spliced the red wire from the 14-3 into the black of the 14-2 with a pig tail. The location of the track light is right next to the garage door opener so i just ran one 14-3 instead of two 14-2s. I am just happy that I don't need to rerun wire just because the outlet will supply power to a so called motor. thanks!

jwelectric
10-02-2007, 03:18 PM
sorry Bob, i guess i was not clear enough, i am not counting the ground wire in the 14-3. I have a 15 amp breaker, than a 14-2 to the wall switch box. I than splice the 14-3 into the 14-2. So the track light switch will not affect the garage door opener's power. I spliced the red wire from the 14-3 into the black of the 14-2 with a pig tail. The location of the track light is right next to the garage door opener so i just ran one 14-3 instead of two 14-2s. I am just happy that I don't need to rerun wire just because the outlet will supply power to a so called motor. thanks!

U N good shape

joe in queens
10-06-2007, 11:06 AM
It took our resident plumbing expert, HJ, to catch the 300.14 violation. That was the first thing I saw, the wires are too short, especially that little one - doesn't look like 6" and if you make a mistake, it'll cetainly be less than 6".

Personally, my minimum is 12" particularly on multi-gange boxes where you might want to move things around. Often, I'll go 15-18" but then again, I always use large boxes. I also like to leave a small loop just before the box, in case the wiring is damaged. I realize cooper is expensive these days, but this is not the place to save.

I do like the idea of the label maker to identify the wires - I do that too.

hids2000
10-06-2007, 12:39 PM
thanks for everyone's comments and suggestions. I made sure all the wires are more than 6" long. more along the line of 10~12"

I still plan to add some 2x4 around the switch box. But before I move forward how does my rough in look now?

2993

2994

sjcrawley
10-06-2007, 05:31 PM
if i did work that exact and perfect before the drywall no one could afford me looks really nice. ( i asume everything is in order)

Speedy Petey
10-06-2007, 06:31 PM
if i did work that exact and perfect before the drywall no one could afford meIt's not all that time consuming to do a neat rough-in once you've done it for a while.

I ignore folks who tell me "No one will see it once the sheetrock is up".:mad:

Chris75
10-07-2007, 09:47 AM
IMO, I thought it was pretty messy compared to what I do, but this is no slam at the installer, it looked good....

hids2000
10-07-2007, 10:10 AM
IMO, I thought it was pretty messy compared to what I do, but this is no slam at the installer, it looked good....

Chris,
This is my first time doing rough in. I did not have any pics to follow only the advices from members of this site.
As long it will pass and I can move forward I will be happy.

Side note the 6" wire length from NEC. Couldn't I just use a pig tail to increase the length instead rerun the whole wire?

ked
10-07-2007, 06:02 PM
I have had jobs where the inspectors want the switches removed. I remove them and install wire nuts to make the lights turn on. Then we switch off the circuit breakers so the drywallers can do their thing .

Speedy Petey
10-07-2007, 06:40 PM
I have had jobs where the inspectors want the switches removed. I remove them and install wire nuts to make the lights turn on. Then we switch off the circuit breakers so the drywallers can do their thing .WHY are you even installing devices before the rock goes up????? :confused:

Chris75
10-07-2007, 07:29 PM
WHY are you even installing devices before the rock goes up????? :confused:


I generally install some temporary devices, lets face it people need lights and power to work...

Speedy Petey
10-07-2007, 07:42 PM
I generally install some temporary devices, lets face it people need lights and power to work...That's a different story. I do the same. Although I think temp lighting is a luxury.

Chris75
10-08-2007, 02:59 PM
That's a different story. I do the same. Although I think temp lighting is a luxury.



Yes it is... I hate when people ask for lites to be turned on, yeah, like I have nothing better to do than cap off all the other hots in other switch boxes, tie the feeder in and install a temp switch and light socket... :D

Speedy Petey
10-08-2007, 03:16 PM
Yes it is... I hate when people ask for lites to be turned on, yeah, like I have nothing better to do than cap off all the other hots in other switch boxes, tie the feeder in and install a temp switch and light socket... :DYou know it!

It is painfully obvious that folks have NO clue what it takes to run temp lights on the branch circuits. I'd almost rather get some string lights and hang them. :rolleyes:

hids2000
10-08-2007, 04:16 PM
can someone please answer the question regarding the 6" wire length out of switch box and outlet boxes from NEC. Couldn't I just use a pig tail to increase the length instead rerun the whole wire? thanks.

Speedy Petey
10-08-2007, 04:45 PM
Yes, a pigtail is fine.

Bob NH
10-08-2007, 04:48 PM
You could use pigtails, but if your wires are long enough to install the switches I would not mess with it unless the inspector gives you a hard time, which he probably won't.

With the neutrals and grounds made up you shouldn't have a problem. If you need to make up some length you could rearrange those brackets onto a cross-piece to get a little more.

hids2000
10-08-2007, 04:48 PM
Yes, a pigtail is fine.

thanks pete!

hids2000
10-08-2007, 04:53 PM
You could use pigtails, but if your wires are long enough to install the switches I would not mess with it unless the inspector gives you a hard time, which he probably won't.

With the neutrals and grounds made up you shouldn't have a problem. If you need to make up some length you could rearrange those brackets onto a cross-piece to get a little more.

thanks bob. I made sure they are all more than 10" in length.