Multiple shutoffs under sink?

[Bassman]

It's been suggested to me to have two separate hot and cold shutoffs under the kitchen sink: one each for hot and cold sink, DW and water filter. Is this better than two valves with dual outlets? Thanks for any opinions.
Neil

[leejosepho]

If the DW developed a leak and needed time for repair or to order a part, having dual shutoffs would leave the sink still useable without having to block the DW line some other way.

[hj]

It is "better" but can be a nuisance if by so doing the handles wind up in such a way as to make them difficult to operate. And I hate to try to operate valve handles that are "sideways" as most 2 handle/double valves are.

[jimbo]

Since all of the uses connected under the sink are low-volume, then the use of Tees or dual outlet valves poses no problems. So far, I have not seen a ball-valve type dual valve, so this is one vote for putting in multiple valves. I would probably do this if replumbing my kitchen from scratch. I would put approriate tees inside the wall, and provide 4 separate sturdy stuboout, and use the brasscraft 1/4 turn ball valves. I would stub them a reasonable distance apart to allow for installation/maintenance.

This may be overkill, and may lead to a bigger tangle of supply lines under the sink. All in all, it is not an issue to lose a lot of sleep over.

[Kiril]

So far, I have not seen a ball-valve type dual valve, so this is one vote for putting in multiple valves.

http://www.watts.com/pro/_products_sub.asp?catId=68&parCat=928

[GrumpyPlumber]

Kiril, thats not a ball valve....

http://www.conbraco.com/products/ball/bronze_balls1.asp?section=A&category=1

[jadnashua]

When I had my kitchen remodeled, I had them put in 5 ball valves and a hammer arrestor: hot and cold for the sink faucet, one cold for a filter at the sink, one cold for the frig, and one hot for the DW.

[Bassman]

It is "better" but can be a nuisance if by so doing the handles wind up in such a way as to make them difficult to operate. And I hate to try to operate valve handles that are "sideways" as most 2 handle/double valves are.

A plumber buddy of mine said to put them at 16 and 20 inches which seems like plenty of separation for 1/4 turn valves.

[Ian Gills]

I use two dual outlet angle stops to keep things tidy and it means fewer compression joints to leak. It also means no need for Tees. If the dishwasher leaks, or the icemaker fails I can live without the kithcen faucet for a while.

The only challenges are the price and how you position them. I bought my ball dual oultet angle stops from Lowes and they cost more than the single outlet versions.

Two compression joint ball angle stops thereby replaced my old set-up comprising three gate angle stops, a saddle valve and a Tee. There were six compression joints on the old-setup and one had started to leak.

Now if my original setup had sweated Ts on the hot and cold water supply I would have replaced with four seperate single outlet ball angle stops, but it all depends on what you are working with. I did not want to sweat in the confined space of my kitchen cabinet. Doing that would have made me Grumpy. As would installing ball valves instead of angle stops.

[jadnashua]

When I had mine done, I opted for soldered in valves...too much possibility of knocking things with compression fittings for me there...other places, no problem.

[SteveW]

I would highly recommend having separate shutoffs for the DW and faucet. Consider that if your DW springs a leak and you need to replace it, it may be at least several days until you can buy and install/have installed a new one. I personally would find not having a kitchen faucet working to be a major inconvenience.

I too would vote for a sweated fitting if I were doing it from scratch. Not sure why folks are so skittish about soldering inside a cabinet.

[Ian Gills]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_01/HouseFireDM1704_468x359.jpg

[jadnashua]

My sink is in a corner cabinet, so there was actually a fair amount of room, the the plumber was small:) . The counters weren't on, either, so the light and claustrophobia was okay.

[Terry]

I always stub out four times.

2- hots
2- colds

Each with it's own compression shutoff.

Using a torch in a cabinet doesn't make sense to me.
It's much easier to replace compression shutoffs at a later date.

[tjbaudio]

Do the shut offs have to be under the sink? In my case the valves could go right under the floor in the fairly low basement celing. It is also easy to get to, considering all the crap that gets stuffed under there by my other 1/2.:D

[Bassman]

I always stub out four times.

2- hots
2- colds
Each with it's own compression shutoff.
Using a torch in a cabinet doesn't make sense to me.
It's much easier to replace compression shutoffs at a later date.

I have no walls in my kitchen at present, so I can solder to my heart's content. 4 shutoffs it is. I've uses compression shutoffs under sinks with no problems before too.

[patrick88]

Do the shut offs have to be under the sink? In my case the valves could go right under the floor in the fairly low basement celing. It is also easy to get to, considering all the crap that gets stuffed under there by my other 1/2.:D

Yes they should be at the fixture. If something ever happened would you want to go hunt for the valves, or just reach under and shut them off.

[tjbaudio]

Yes they should be at the fixture. If something ever happened would you want to go hunt for the valves, or just reach under and shut them off.
That was my point about all the CRAP she puts under there! I guess I could put a valve in both places. One way or another it gets turned off!

At least she prefers Linux to Windows!

[patrick88]

That was my point about all the CRAP she puts under there! I guess I could put a valve in both places. One way or another it gets turned off!

I would also put the ones in my basement just in case you need them I have valves in my basement for my kitchen sink. I have them at the sink also. It makes things easy for plumbing upgrades.


At least she prefers Linux to Windows!

You married a very smart women.

[Kiril]

Kiril, thats not a ball valve....

http://www.conbraco.com/products/ball/bronze_balls1.asp?section=A&category=1

Are you sure? The specs say "Ball valve style construction".

http://www.watts.com/pdf/es-wb&t-kwikstop.pdf

BTW, what is your opinion of Apollo valves in terms of service life?

[GrumpyPlumber]

Are you sure? The specs say "Ball valve style construction".

http://www.watts.com/pdf/es-wb&t-kwikstop.pdf

BTW, what is your opinion of Apollo valves in terms of service life?

It says "• Ball valve style construction"
The operative word is "style", personally I've had bad experiences with 1/4 turn stops...a small amount of sediment or corrosion and they don't shut all the way.
I say the inconveninece of multiple turns is a fair trade off for secure knowledge that won't happen.
As for Apollo...numero UNO in my book.
I mentioned Apollo in a thread not long ago, unfortunately they're not available everywhere, they're very common where I am, plumbers use them for quality.

[Kiril]

personally I've had bad experiences with 1/4 turn stops...a small amount of sediment or corrosion and they don't shut all the way.

Funny you should say that. With waters around here, the exact opposite is true. Multi-turn valves end up getting frozen due to deposits and are essentially worthless as a shutoff. If you can get the stem turning, the valve 9 times out of 10 starts leaking. Same thing with gate valves (no positive shutoff), however ball valves will typically remain functional even after extended periods of non-operation.

Check out these Nibco stops. These actually specify brass ball and stem under materials and construction.

http://www.nibco.com/assets/PRST.pdf


As for Apollo...numero UNO in my book.
I mentioned Apollo in a thread not long ago, unfortunately they're not available everywhere, they're very common where I am, plumbers use them for quality.[/B]

How about their RPZA? Both their valves and RPZAs are significantly cheaper than the comparable Watts versions. I can get a Apollo bronze ball valve for about the same price as one of Watts higher end brass valves.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Nibco, found at home D...good stuff cheap.
Watts, Apollo, Boston - reliable, known, trusted, more expensive.
The guy at the hardware store may not always be the best source of useful info.
When it comes to sediment deposit I've seen both type stops...tends to happen in my line of work, we seem 'em on occasion.
The regular multi-turn stops tend to get harder to close at the "twilight" of their lifespan, but you can see it coming - just takes more force to close before they completely go.
The 1/4 turn stops just don't shut off all the way and forcing them will break something once there's sediment in the port.
You are likely referring to actual ball valves when you reference to their performance over gate/globe valves.

http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull_tree.asp?catId=64&parCat=196&pid=545&ref=2

http://www.bostonvalve.com/pdf/USA&SST%209201%20p1&2.pdf

http://www.conbraco.com/products/ball/techtemplateb1.asp?section=A&category=1&pid=77C-200

Ball valves themselves are MUCH better than multi-turn valves when used on water pipe.
On stops for fixture feeds where there's usually a 1/2" reducing to 3/8" or 1/4"...nope, not a good idea, but you'll possibly get differing opinions, thats my experience.
Gate valves were the valve of choice for water mains for years because they're full port, globe valves were used more on fixtures before brasscrafts angle stops.
Ball valves are full port and much less likely to break or cease like old gate valves...as long as you buy a good one that won't de-zinc from galvanic action because the alloy mixture is cheaper.

[patrick88]

Funny you should say that. With waters around here, the exact opposite is true. Multi-turn valves end up getting frozen due to deposits and are essentially worthless as a shutoff. If you can get the stem turning, the valve 9 times out of 10 starts leaking. Same thing with gate valves (no positive shutoff), however ball valves will typically remain functional even after extended periods of non-operation.

Old valves will leak out the packing nut. That is very common.

I think if a person is looking to modernize there plumbing then installing a modern looking valve is nicer.

[Kiril]

The guy at the hardware store may not always be the best source of useful info.

I don't get advise from the guy at the hardware store. :)
I'm an outdoor "plumber", and I get all my plumbing materials from supply houses. I typically use Watts Series B6080 (http://www.watts.com/pdf/ES-B6080.pdf) for my ball valves.

I am currently putting together a material list for a complete re-plumb of my entire house starting at the meter. For my work I use nothing less than full port bronze ball valves with SS stem and ball.

This is not really a big expense when your only talking about 1-2 valves, but when you bump that number up to 15, now your talking a significant amount of money just for ball valves.

In your experience, what valves have you seen de-zinc from galvanic action? I am currently planning on using Watts FBVS-3C (http://www.watts.com/pdf/ES-FBV-3C.pdf) valves for everything except house shutoff.

For fixture stops, what I want is ball valve reliability. That being said, what 1/2" to 3/8" fixture stop is going to give me that? Since I have had good experience with Watts products, I assumed that would extend to their indoor products as well. Perhaps I am mistaken?

[patrick88]

For fixture stops, what I want is ball valve reliability. That being said, what 1/2" to 3/8" fixture stop is going to give me that? Since I have had good experience with Watts products, I assumed that would extend to their indoor products as well. Perhaps I am mistaken?

I would stick to the brand you like. Watts makes great products.
I like brass craft for supply lines and only started to use 1/2"X3/8" 1/4 turn stops. I have been told if you heat them to much the plastic could melt. I have not had that problem yet.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I would stick to the brand you like. Watts makes great products.
I like brass craft for supply lines and only started to use 1/2"X3/8" 1/4 turn stops. I have been told if you heat them to much the plastic could melt. I have not had that problem yet.

Leave the valve semi open, the washer is away from the heated seat and won't melt.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I don't get advise from the guy at the hardware store. :)
I'm an outdoor "plumber", and I get all my plumbing materials from supply houses. I typically use Watts Series B6080 (http://www.watts.com/pdf/ES-B6080.pdf) for my ball valves.

I am currently putting together a material list for a complete re-plumb of my entire house starting at the meter. For my work I use nothing less than full port bronze ball valves with SS stem and ball.

This is not really a big expense when your only talking about 1-2 valves, but when you bump that number up to 15, now your talking a significant amount of money just for ball valves.

In your experience, what valves have you seen de-zinc from galvanic action? I am currently planning on using Watts FBVS-3C (http://www.watts.com/pdf/ES-FBV-3C.pdf) valves for everything except house shutoff.

For fixture stops, what I want is ball valve reliability. That being said, what 1/2" to 3/8" fixture stop is going to give me that? Since I have had good experience with Watts products, I assumed that would extend to their indoor products as well. Perhaps I am mistaken?

You were talking Nibco, not a personal choice, Watts is, amongst others.
For stops...brasscraft.
Dezincification...do a websearch, I'm not a metalurgist.
From what I understand the higher the percentage of Zinc vs copper in the brass..the faster it corrodes.
Copper is more expensive so MFG's will want to cut cost.
Cheap valves, in other words.
As for stock lists, oh I might know what ya mean...done 'em once or twice.
One way to look at this...you order 20 3/4" brass HD valves for $8 apiece.
You order 20 3/4" Watts valves at $12 apiece from a legit supplier.
You save $0.
In 10-15 years you have to reorder 20 3/4" valves.
Or, you wait 50 years.
As for the 1/4 turn stops, not a choice of mine, I see the end results often.
Even if they last as long as multi-turn, I'd rather at least be able to tell when ones on the way out, rather than have to shut down a 15 story condo building because I can't shut off a faucet feed.
HD sells them, often an indicator of the target market, but then, they sell Brasscraft too...a guessing game if you don't know what to look for.

[Kiril]

You were talking Nibco, not a personal choice

My Nibco reference was merely to point out a stop that has true ball/seat construction as opposed to "ball type" construction. I wouldn't give serious consideration to using them. :)


HD sells them, often an indicator of the target market, but then, they sell Brasscraft too...a guessing game if you don't know what to look for.

Yes, I know what you mean. I don't get anything critical (like valves) from HD. I'll be getting all my plumbing supplies from Ferguson. I'm looking at 11 - 1" valves, and a handful of 3/4" and 1/2" valves (including gas).

I totally agree with you on the whole price vs. longevity issue. When I build something, I want it to last longer than I do. If I were to take the extreme high end route, I would be using nothing less than 3-piece SS valves throughout. This however is not what I would consider a high end house ( factory ;) ), nor do I plan on staying there until I kick the bucket. Considering that, I don't really see the need to fork out 200-300 bucks per valve to get 100 years of reliability. :eek:

I took a closer look at the Apollo valves and based on the specs one word sums it up; Impressive. The comparable Watts valve is considerable more expensive and would appear to have lower quality packing and seats.

Given the list price of the 77C series and your recommendation I'm probably going to go with those over the Watts brass. I'll also use the SS stem and ball in the critical areas where I want ultimate reliability (house shutoff and filtered to unfiltered bypass). I have a fairly complex filter setup with multiple bypasses that I don't particular want to be rebuilding that due to valve failure, so I want(need) high quality that will not break the bank. As my other half pointed out, the quality of the ball valves is not really a major selling point for most people. :)

I initially shied away from BrassCraft due to the fact that HD sells it. I now am looking at the KT series again given the two positive remarks. Anyone else want to chime in on their experience with BrassCraft KT series stops?

Curious if anyone here has plumbed in any solenoid valves into water and gas lines for emergency shutoff?

[jadnashua]

TACO has an interesting gas/water shutoff for WH you might be interested in (WAG)...you put it in the pan, and it cuts off both the gas and water inputs if it detects water. No power...uses the same sort of trigger that is used in life vests on airplanes that operates them when they get wet.

[patrick88]

They seem to be ball valves with older looking handles. I bet they are easer to turn than those little dinky handles you see on the other brands.

[Kiril]

I was looking at ASCO solonoid valves for water, haven't gotten around to gas yet. These valves will be wiring into the home automation system. For water, some leak detectors/sensors in critical locations will control water, fire alarms will control gas. I'm also planning on using the Watts FloodSafe supply hoses. Has anyone used those and what do you think about them?

BTW, that WAGS valve won't work for me since I'm installing a tankless. :)

[patrick88]

I'm also planning on using the Watts FloodSafe supply hoses. Has anyone used those and what do you think about them?

I have used them 3 times and removed all 3. Had one not work because the house pressure was a around 80lbs i do believe. I think the other two got clogged real fast from sediment.

[Kiril]

I have used them 3 times and removed all 3. Had one not work because the house pressure was a around 80lbs i do believe. I think the other two got clogged real fast from sediment.

I expect supply pressure to be around 40 psi once it goes through the filters (3 of them, final filter prior to UV unit is 5 microns).

[patrick88]

I expect supply pressure to be around 40 psi once it goes through the filters (3 of them, final filter prior to UV unit is 5 microns).

I follow the three strikes rule, so I will not put them in my house or any of my customers houses.
What do you need them for. I would make sure I installed a single handle laundry valve, and made sure the water was turned off after every use. It is best not to rely on mechanical devises.

[GrumpyPlumber]

TACO has an interesting gas/water shutoff for WH you might be interested in (WAG)...you put it in the pan, and it cuts off both the gas and water inputs if it detects water. No power...uses the same sort of trigger that is used in life vests on airplanes that operates them when they get wet.

I'm a Taco "groupie"..I lurk on their website looking for the new stuff.
Maybe it's just me, but they seem to use alotta common sense in their choice of product.
Freedom flanges for example.

[Kiril]

What do you need them for.

Don't necessarily need them, just insurance. I'm remodeling with the intent to make the house appealing to retired folk since there are alot that live in the area. Worry free supply hoses are just one of the bells, but if they don't work, I don't want them.



I would make sure I installed a single handle laundry valve, and made sure the water was turned off after every use. It is best not to rely on mechanical devises.

Going to use the Watts 2M2 recessed washer box. :)

[Kiril]

I'm a Taco "groupie"..I lurk on their website looking for the new stuff.
Maybe it's just me, but they seem to use alotta common sense in their choice of product.

Have you used one of their recirculation systems?