Hit a phone line and need help.

[got_nailed]

I was putting up a fence on Monday and I hit a telephone feeder cable. I called Miss Utilities and they had marked out where the line was so they thought. I was 5 feet from there marks. There was no tape or anything else to let me know that I was going to hit something. You can clearly see the marks that were put down. It did get out a camera and took about 50 pics of everything.

When I hit it I called the phone company and called Miss Utilities. Miss Utilities will not come back out to look at there lines compared to where I was digging. The phone company is telling me it will be $3000 to $5000 to fix the cable. They have fixed the cable and form what I was told I will be getting the bill.

I don’t think that I should have to pay for anything but what should I do? I called my lawyer and he came out with his video camera and he told me that if it went to court I would end up paying for it.

According to Miss Utilities they will be within 2 feet from the cable. I was 5 feet off there marks and still hit the thing.

I’m tossing this under a plumbing because I would think someone would of hit something and would know what I need to do.

[Cass]

You will have to check and see what your states laws are reguarding this.

Here in OH you must dig with a shovel if you are within 3' of either side of the marked line. 6' total.

Your state may be different.

It is good that you took before pics. Now take some after pics.

You may want to check with your home owners ins. if you lose the battle with the utilities but don't hold your breath.

Try calling where you called to have it marked and they may know.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I'm digging a small ditch today for the first time in 3 years and I read this. :eek:


Why....would your lawyer automatically state that you would pay? It seems to me you followed standard practice and the ones who marked it, fudged up.


I'm working under a deck today and I fear something is under the dirt other than a downspout line.

I plan on using a small tiller and slowly break the dirt up.

[jimbo]

Well, this is strictly a legal question, so I won't even offer my opinion of what's right, etc.

The question boils down to this: DOES THE LAW make the person doing the digging ultimately totally responsible to dig carefully no matter what, OR does relying on the information provided by the testing company transfer some of the responsibility to them. Strictly a lawyer question.

You could try www.handelonthelaw.com (http://www.handelonthelaw.com) I believe there is a feature on that website where you can post briefly about your case, and you may get a response from a lawyer if they think you have a case. This one will not be a freeby, strictly defense, and I suppose to defend would cost you way more than the five grand. If nothing else, it is probably worth paying a lawyer an hour for a consult to see 1) if you might prevail and 2) if you do, will the other side be obligated to pay your attorney fees. This will help you decide where to go.


We are all dying to find out how this goes, so please keep us posed.

[sjsmithjr]

I do a lot of intrusive work (drilling) and the digger is typically on the hook for utility damages unless he has an agreement in place with the utility owner prior to commencing work. Some locator services (the free ones funded by the utiltity companies) do not mark service feeds. Additionally, they will typically tell you the marks are approximate and are to be verified by the excavator.

If your attorney told you that you'd have to pay, then...well; I've never seen one turn down case they thought they could win. Check in with your insurance agent to see if you're covered.

Rugged - we were racking so many utility damage bills that the company I work for now requires that we hire our own locator service in addition to the local one call, will not dig within 50 feet of a fiber optic cable unless the owner agrees in writing to accept responsibility, and fires you on the spot if you hit something and weren't hand digging (that means gently with a shovel) the first five feet after having the utilities marked. We can't even drive a survey stake until we get paint on the ground.

-Sam

[Dunbar Plumbing]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/WAPP003.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/WAPP005.jpg



If you see that white bucket near the building wall, I have to dig from there to that gas valve on the pool heater, 18" deep.

Some idiot pool man ran that gastite you see under the deck and it leaks everywhere, especially at the connections.

I've already rerouted this gas line inside and right where the white bucket is there is a 3/4" gas line stubbed out of the wall.

That 4" downspout line is the only thing I see so far; hopefully going shallow allows me some safety.

I'm taking pictures of the progress to completion so I'll post back with either my misery or happiness.


EDIT: Sorry about that; should of spaced my links. It won't let me do that now. :(

[cwhyu2]

Is that normac or trac pipe? to rugged

[got_nailed]

I called my insurance and told them what was going on. They said that they would send someone out if they could find my house. I told them where to meet me so I could pick them up. I have to go get him in about 10 min. There will also be a privet marking company that is coming with him to look at everything.

I was told that if the marks are off that I would have to pay my deductible and it would not go ageist me as a claim and they would handle everything.

I read the entire Miss Utilities and “Excavate carefully - If the excavation is within 2 feet of a marked utility line, expose the utility line by hand digging and keep all mechanized equipment at least 2 feet away from the extremities of the utility”. They don’t say anything else about digging except about privet utilities.

This line was over an inch round. I was using an auger on the back of my J-Deer. I snapped the bolt that protects the drive unit on the auger. I had to hand dig the auger out because it wouldn’t pull out.


I’ll be back on in an hour or so when I meet with these people.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Is that normac or trac pipe?


Pretty sure it's gastite.....I don't work with this stuff as I don't want the liability....and there's 6 leaks in it.


It's super thin corrugated stainless with the coating on it. Laying it on a walkway was about the stupidest thing I've seen in some time.


Good luck nailed.......I hope the utility detecting company owns up to their mistake...and it is their mistake for not marking that properly.

[Wet_Boots]

Locates are supposed to be accurate to within a given spec. If you are way outside the spec, then you should be able to avoid liability. You did get the locate done, the locating equipment has a known accuracy, so it is reasonable to expect the locating work to be within tolerance. (and just how sloppy is a 2-foot leeway? Any stooge should be within half-a-foot)

[sjsmithjr]

Liability is a state/local thing and the legalities rarely seem to follow common sense. Combine that with such variables as utility type, technique (direct induction, indirect induction, mag, or an as-built drawing), and experience and it is not uncommon for these onecall locators to miss by as much as 8 or 10 feet or fail to locate them at all.

I'm curious to see what the original posters insurance company says. You can bet they won't pay up if the liability can be transferred to the locator service.

Like plumbing code, it's best to know what the law is in your locality if you do intrusive work.

-Sam

[got_nailed]

Well it all comes down to the phone company dose not have a right away on my land. My insurance will not do anything.

Right now my lawyer, the county building department, a surveyor, the phone company, and the state police are on my property.

I have to go down to the county jail and file trespassing on the phone line and for Monday when they came out to fix the line. My lawyer is going to make up papers saying that they have 30 days to remove the line and what ever BS goes with it.

The phone company is trying to say there on the state right away but the cable is 20’ onto my land.

I will say that I do not want the wire run inside of my fence and I would rather not have it on my land at all. I just wonder how long till the flood gates open. I hope that they don’t open till Monday.

[master plumber mark]

if you have not already,

you need to document everything here.....


take exact pictures or movies of exactly where the phone cable was supposed to be....

and exact pictures of where you dug....


that is probably going on already with all those people
standing around ....

but I would have my own pictures just for fun...


you will probably not have to pay a cent

and perhaps if you play your cards right

the phone company will not want to
spend the money to move that line,,,,

so if you let them have access to that part of your
property,

you will probably get your attoruney fees
paid for , and get the line fixed for free,

just demand that they move the cable, and they will be
singing another song...

[Ian Gills]

Only in America. Why couldn't they have just fixed it, smiled and left.

Or do what they do in the UK: fix it, swear at you and leave.

[Cass]

If it turns out all in your favor you could walk away with a bundel of cash in your pocket, the line fixed, the lawyer paid and everyone happy.

[got_nailed]

I have over 100 pics and 30 min of video. As far as the access to my land they will get it by appointment only until I know what’s going on.

As far as my fence it will be moved back about 10 more feet so I can keep the wire 4 feet on the out side of my fence.

m p mark
With out a right away and if I fight this all the way out I’m looking at the leas of the land for 10 years where that line was buried. As far as getting the line fixed I was told that in 31 days to go dig up one end and get out the chain.

Right now all I’m looking for is all of my expenses. If they would of just come out fixed the line and painted the ground where it was it would of all been over with and I would not care.

[GrumpyPlumber]

How SUWEEET it is!

[spetrucco]

Got Nailed.
I am on your side. I work in the communications industry (fiber).
I place one-calls, engineer routes and even watch crews install it all the time.
I will assume this is a copper cable that you hit. No biggie. Be glad it was not fiber....someones head would roll (not yours)...the locators.

I noticed you said no right-of-way exists but I would check to see if thier was an easement/ utility easement or anything that shows up on your deed...more specifically on your title. If thier is nothing then you have the phone company. You should be able to have the cable moved off your property or grant them an easement for some $. Depending on how many linear feet I would think they would be more inclined to go after an easement.


Good-luck
Shawn

[got_nailed]

They were putting in the cable as I was building my house. No one told me anything about the cable and at the time I didn’t know it was on my land. With over 120 acres I didn’t know what was mine and what was not. The line has only been there 4 years.

It is a copper bundle. The thing that dose get me is that now I have 2 splice boxes 20 feet apart.

There is nothing on my title except for the power line (above ground) that feeds my house. According to all of the county records the phone line should be next to and under the gravel road. The only record of the phone line was the utility map.

There is over a mile of there cable on my land. When they remarked the cable out it weaves in and out of a fence I put in a few years ago.

[Cass]

why is it a "stinking easement"



It also depends on how long the telephone cable has been there, if it's over 7 years, they don't don't need no stinking easment.

Russ

[Livin4Real]

Sounds like good news. Is this still the same attorney that originally said you'd be paying for everything?

[patrick88]

There is over a mile of there cable on my land. When they remarked the cable out it weaves in and out of a fence I put in a few years ago.
Reply With Quote nice
they had to get around your polls

[got_nailed]

They didn’t go around my fence pools but the fence is straight and when they put the cable in the cable was not put down straight. The cable had been down for a year or so before that fence went up. Mss Utilities was way off when they marked the wire for when I put that one up. I will never trust Mss Utility’s anion and will be calling a privet company to mark lines for me from now on.

Yes it was the lawyer that said that I would have to pay for it all. But this was said before all the facts were in.

I went down to my PO Box and I got the bill for the repair $7,589.74. I faxed it over to my lawyer and will get a call back on what to do with it today or Monday.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I got the bill for the repair $7,589.74.


:eek:


Fight like mad hell on this one. Also, this would be a good time for Mad Plumber to give us his opinion on dez matters. :D

[sjsmithjr]

Good luck to you; in the end I hope everything works out in your favor. In case anyone was wondering, the repair bill for the last fiber optic bundle we hit was over $50K.

I was talking about this last night to a buddy who is an attorney and he made a really good point: what are the chances that a homeowner would understand the liability issues and the potential costs to make repairs.

I'm not a big fan of "what if" scenarios, but what if that cable had been in the ground for over seven years and the locator missed it? What if it had been fiber optic cable (it's not like they use a different a different shade of orange to paint it on the ground). What if it had been a high voltage line or a high pressure gas line? The answers range from "you're dead" to "that'll be $50K".

Although a lot has been done to drive home the need for utility clearance, I don't think much has been done to explain the liability issues, particular to individual homeowners.

-Sam

[got_nailed]

Rugged this one is going to court unless they make me happy. The cable is on my property and has no legal right to be there. There off there right away is between 10 to 20 feet. I’m sure there are spots that it is off by more but I haven’t walked the whole line yet.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Rugged this one is going to court unless they make me happy. The cable is on my property and has no legal right to be there. There off there right away is between 10 to 20 feet. I’m sure there are spots that it is off by more but I haven’t walked the whole line yet.

I'd have the pics in hand ready to head for the local paper, news.
If they so much as murmer a word of that 7500 being on you, I'd jump on it along with pics of the paint and hole dug.
Also, question comes to mind, do your pics make the location clear relative to your property line?

[got_nailed]

My pics make the property line, where the cable was said to be, and where the cable is more than perfectly clear.

As far as the local paper they have called me and are coming on Saturday to look at everything and they might do a story on it and will land it in the paper. Having this in the paper would not be what I want depending on how it all turns out.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

If the newspaper is coming to check it out.....and you know they messed up....


If you don't have little kids, rent them. Have them there with your wife and make them peel onions and send them outside when the cameras are rolling.

Tell them that little timmy and samantha might not have a christmas if these people do this to you and your family. And when you start crying, start crying real loud like your choking and snorting like you can't stop so they have to pull the camera away because it's too disturbing to watch and that somebody might you tube it to really make the utility marking company regret what they did to this poor family.





Do it!

[abikerboy]

Rugged...LOVED your response! Fighting phone company recently on repairs to my phone line, which they swear I should pay for! My phone works great until it rains! Guess I got lucky...burried cable was found on my property without an easement or right away granted...has been here since the 1980's! I refused to sign a right of way until my own phone line is fixed! Then they offered to buy the easement...says that there are 27 phones on the burried cable, and relocating the line is uneconomical! I told them, not my problem...your problem! Fix my phone line, then we will talk! I actually got 4 phone numbers to 4 techs, covering all three shifts, and next time it rains, Im suppose to call all 4 of them! They said they would fix my line regardless, and after it is fixed, we will meet to discuss the PURCHASE of their right of way! Guess it depends on where youre at, and how big of an ass youre willing to make of yoruself! In my case, I notified them that 300 feet of cable, plus the above ground splice boxes could be picked up in a neat pile stacked beside my driveway if my phone wasnt fixed to my satisfaction!

[got_nailed]

That’s a good one rugged. I need more kids don’t I.

The way it looks they will be doing something soon with that line. I will sell them an easement but it will not be where the cable is right now. In any way shape or form I do not want the cable inside of my fence. I have seen companies cut the wires and not fix the wires letting the cattle out, but to them they say they had the right to gain access to there cable.

There are 2 other properties that the phone line is on and they did not get easements for there land either. They are on the same path that I’m on but they haven’t hit the cable yet. Between the 3 of us there is over 2.5 miles of there cable on land with out easement or right away grants.

Now for the fun… I’m about to go out and use my auger to put in more holes for my fence. I did get some extra shear pins just in case. I did call the phone company to send someone out to make sure there marks are right and to make sure I do hit it again. The paper will be coming out when I’m dinning more holes and the other 2 people that own land that the cable is on are helping me with the fence (working for free).

I did find out that the cable jumps between 2 of the 4’x3’x6’ junction boxes. The cable runs between a small town and a town that if you blink you miss it.

On Monday when it stuff starts hitting the court system is when it will all start to getting good.

As far as being an ass on 10/16/07 the phone line will be pulled out and sold to the highest bidder. This will give them 30 days to remove or resolve there cable once the paper work is filed on Monday.

[Bob NH]

Public utilities usually have the right to take an easement by eminent domain. They may be able to compel you to allow the cable on the property but they will have to pay damages for it. Damages include the loss of your ability to use the property for other purposes.

One risk of selling them or giving them an easement is that if you ever need to have the line moved for any reason you will have to pay all costs. For example, if you had to put in a driveway or road or drain that interfered with the line you would have to pay the total cost.

I know a guy that gave the power company an easement to let the lines cross the corner of his property. When he wanted to build a house on the corner they wanted thousands of dollars to move the line.

[got_nailed]

The only problems I can see with having the cable between the road and my fence would be the drive way and the ditch. But I can’t see ether one being a problem.

I was talking to the phone rep and he was telling us that they had people out looking at hanging a cable down one of the power lines a few miles down from us. I think this would be the best for all. I did come up with something that will work; if they give me a T3 for free for life then I’ll be good to go.

I moved the fence line that I was working on before so even if the line dose stay were it’s at the cable will be on the outside of the fence. The cool part is after the newspaper left the phone guy started to help us out. The guy they sent out was told that the line was miss marked and we were going to try to hit it again.

The easement for the power company had to happen; I needed power. There polls only go as far as the edge of the woods the rest is under ground.