PDA

View Full Version : complicating-updating new box for client, electrician F***** it up-pics included



Kraze
08-22-2007, 01:06 PM
am a contractor changing out a box for a client. He had a electrican who on the side came and changed out his box and left him with this(see pics, I broke it open so you can see ALL views, from the shoddy work to where the wire enters from the outside) and $800.00 broker.For those of you who suggest I hire a electrician unless your goign to donate money for the cause this is impossible due to lack of finances for the client. I am doing this because I have done alot of work for him in past, and the current condition that the stupid electrician left for him I wouldnt' trust another electrician to come in cause I could do better work than this clown can. Even though i'm not a electrician I do have experience with similar such as 220v installs, subpanels, wiring new homes and such. I built additions and installed jacuzzi tubs and rewired fans and all sorts of nice electrical projects. However, I know just little beyond common knowledge along lines of dealing with meters and service cable.
first off the guy bought this box installed half a** and left with the clients money never to return. Its a 200amp box i belive, I didn't pay attention I could be wrong, the client told me thats what he was supposed to be installing a 200amp anyway, So really Im just going by that guess. So heres my questions
1. what size service cable do I need for the entrance for a 200amp service, He doesnt' run nothing to heavy, has electric range,no dishwasher, no jacuzzis or even forced air ac. He rents the basement and upstairs and will be using 4 window ac units total, his furnace is over 17 years old. Just basic lights, he dont' even use a computer. However! he wants to sell it soon, and who knows what the future holds for the new would be owners electrical needs. Maybe a 100amp or 150 would suffice.
2. how do I disconnect the power so I can run the wire? do I remove the meter head(part thats enclosed in glass)? Its not locked or tagged as you can see iin the pictures, After I remove it its safe correct? They wont upgrade his meter UNTIL the box is upgraded. Then if I remove the power to connect the new wire obviously I wont' have power to the house, which I guess I'll have to call them to schedule my time to connect it to the box? Or do they connect it to the box as well? ir is just to the meter are they responsible for? Do I just run the wire through a new hole, leave it all disconnected until they show then while they are changing out the box, i remove the old wire and install the new ones? or perhaps remove the meter head to disconnect all electric to box, change everything out run wires as needed, get it all framed in and when finished reconnect the meter head, or before reconnecting the meter head do I just run the new service cable from my new installed box to the old box totally eliminating the old cable, then reconnect the head, and when they come out they will remove the newly installed cable and reconnect to the new meter?
3. the current meter is 100amp correct?, so this would be changed out if wanted to upgrade, If I leave it at 100a then what main breaker would I use? a 100amp breaker then go from there? I understand that the 100amps you use is only calculated at load(current use, as everything not on at once). Heard one similar answer on 100a service, to use a 90A breaker instead :confused: Heres another question, if you look on this new box why does this not have a main breaker? the wires run straight to the buss? NO breaker to flip in case of emergency? why? I want to eliminate ALL wires that are not necessary, so that grey box that is there is going bye bye,(If it cannot, please explain why), the junction box rewired, and all the wires properly in grommets and fasten down all wires.
4. Should I ground this to cold water pipe or should I run 2 rods in the ground for this? dont' see where they grounded this, How do I tell if its grounded?
5. I know basic loads, but not qualified to do a house load calculation what is the formula to figure this out? Or any directions to any websites would be useful, perhaps you know of one I have yet to visit. How about any sites on volt meter usage, I'd be interested in learning some of this stuff in my spare time. Any advice from the experienced that may be of use?
6. last simple question, I put electrical tape on all my connections, is this a sign of an amateur? I was told that it was unnecessary and was a sign of a do it yourselfer/amateur...he was nice about it(i think) but I keep wondering what this licensed electrician said was true, because the pictures you see if from a electrician and he taped teh connections(very badly I might add)


Just letting you know ALOT of these questions I ask I already have an answer for or already think I know the answer, but asking just to reassure myself. Just lettign you know as the only wrong answer or comment that anyone can post is to hire a qualified electrician:mad: After all if I do electrocute myself its more work for you guys in the future since I won't be around..LOL :)
sorry for any confusion, but I have to get to teh jobsite and Im in a hurry. so disregard any spelling or grammer issues. Looking forward to any and all comments and hopefully learn some new things. Thanks in advance to all who help me out, it is greatly appreciated, and any advice given would be given credit for, but I WILL NOT!! hold anyone responsible for any ADVICE given. :cool:

Kraze
08-22-2007, 01:08 PM
more pics for you

Kraze
08-22-2007, 01:10 PM
here is 3rd page of pics

Kraze
08-22-2007, 01:11 PM
4th page of pictures

Kraze
08-22-2007, 01:13 PM
5th set of pics

Kraze
08-22-2007, 01:14 PM
last set of pics,

jwelectric
08-22-2007, 01:48 PM
Hire an electrician is the only answer.

Before anything else call the local inspector and let him see this system/

Speedy Petey
08-22-2007, 03:44 PM
Mike, forget it. This guy is NOT worth it. He has started this thread on a BUNCH of boards. He is getting the same advice all over yet thinks we all are the problem.:rolleyes:

Chris75
08-22-2007, 04:19 PM
Sounds like should have hired a contractor to begin with...:confused: Best advice I can give by looking at these pictures is to do a complete gut and redo... so money is going to be an issue, but that job is for no handy man special... call a Electrical Contractor...

sbrn33
08-22-2007, 04:51 PM
Say what you want but no licensed electrician did that work, not to mention it looks like it was done 10-15 years ago. There is nothing in the 75 pics that was under 10 years old.

If an electrical contractor did do that mess he should be reported.

frenchie
08-22-2007, 05:21 PM
sbrn, you made me look. Aaack! Almost wish you hadn't.


Scary thing is: the panel itself looks kinda new. Clean & shiny, anyways?


http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2778&d=1187813165

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2782&d=1187813249



...words cannot express what these pictures are doing to my brain.

cwhyu2
08-22-2007, 06:00 PM
In 28 yrs of working remodeling I have never seen any thing like this.

seaneys
08-22-2007, 08:46 PM
I'm an avid DIY'er who works with contractors. I tend to think of myself as the sub from hell...

It strikes me as odd that a licensed contractor would go near a project this big outside of their purview. It just seems like a huge liability risk for a few grand worth of revenue. I could see simple items (running an outlet, etc), but this a little extreme.

My experience is that when I become the official electrical or plumbing sub on a permit for my house, the contractor stays at arms length from anything related to my work.

Couldn't this really hurt your relationship with the local inspectors? Ours would be furious and would probably look carefully at future projects.

Steve

snafflekid
08-23-2007, 01:17 AM
What a pile of sh**, but I think you already know that. I have replaced panels and they require work. That electrician was laaaaazy and never expected the panel to be opened. There are wire splices outside the box even!

crutch
08-23-2007, 01:34 PM
your right i wouldn't hire another one of us electricians because we are too expensive, and it sounds like you have plenty of experience yourself to tackle this easy project. it's not like its something that requires knowledge or experience in the electrical field. plain and simple everyone has been screwd by a contractor one way or another but that doesn't mean because you run into a few bad ones that everyone is bad. this project isn't one you can talk someone thru and expect good results. you need to know what your doing. maybe you can work out a deal with another electrician to cut you a deal if you promise him future work. i just hate it when people say they are lacking funds, that always screams hazard. besides if they don't have any money how are they paying you another contractor with min/no electrical experience. i always get upset when people say they don't need an electrician until it looks like your pics. before you think about saving a buck and doing this yourself why don't you think about the family that your putting at risk when your playing electrician in your off time and then maybe you can scrape together enough pennys to hire one.

Dunbar Plumbing
08-23-2007, 01:46 PM
your right i wouldn't hire another one of us electricians because we are too expensive, and it sounds like you have plenty of experience yourself to tackle this easy project. it's not like its something that requires knowledge or experience in the electrical field. plain and simple everyone has been screwd by a contractor one way or another but that doesn't mean because you run into a few bad ones that everyone is bad. this project isn't one you can talk someone thru and expect good results. you need to know what your doing. maybe you can work out a deal with another electrician to cut you a deal if you promise him future work. i just hate it when people say they are lacking funds, that always screams hazard. besides if they don't have any money how are they paying you another contractor with min/no electrical experience. i always get upset when people say they don't need an electrician until it looks like your pics. before you think about saving a buck and doing this yourself why don't you think about the family that your putting at risk when your playing electrician in your off time and then maybe you can scrape together enough pennys to hire one.


It's an underworld that exists, can't be stopped, and will continue through the "I ain't got no money" tradition of morals and values.

crutch
08-23-2007, 02:13 PM
your right, its just too bad that lack of money and hazard SOMETIMES go hand in hand.

snafflekid
08-23-2007, 02:47 PM
I know a lady who runs a nightclub and I replaced one panel that was burned out and rigged up, not as bad. Her constant bleat is "I have no money" and the whole place is one band-aid fix after another. Funny thing is I heard her acquaintance say that she plans to buy a $1000 flat panel tv for the place. :mad:

HandyAndy
08-23-2007, 04:15 PM
If the entrance and panel are that bad and poorly done, more than likely the rest of the wiring is jsut more of the same hazard, and your wanting to up grade.

You and your Customer are going to need to jsut start from the beginning, and redo the entire building/unit, to end up with any thing one can trust, and if you don't know the answers to the questions your asking, you need a professional in the field either to assist you, or to do the job. as you will probly have to have it inspected to have the power moved from the old to the new, and if you don't know the code en-ought to answer some of the first questions asked, I am guessing you will have some code issues that will need to be worked out, and to redo things a number of times will cost you as well, then you have the liability and if something does go wrong, who's neck will they be looking for?

I hate to say this but most every one is short of money in some way or another, and yes I am sorry your customer got took, I would check references next time around and find some one who is happy with the job and felt the price was fair, and hire who they hired. not just some fly by night guy.

I don't know the extent of the rest of the project but may be some thing needs to be put on hold while the critical safety issues with the structure are addressed and upgraded to a safe and proper standard.

and this looks like an area that needs some professional attention.

(and this I will suggest, get a copy of the NEC, and get the handbook edition by the NPFA it is the code with commentary, which helps explain a lot of the code).

But jsut having the NEC code book does not qualify some one in the interpretation of it, and even the tho the handbook helps one make heads or tails out of the code, The book is (hand book) is about 2 1/4" thick and a full 8 1/2" X 11", and even if you get it and read it from cover to cover, you will still can be very confusing, as it takes experience to know where things apply and do not apply. and which tables are apply to you situation,

The book
"Practical Electrical Wiring: Residential, Farm, Commercial and Industrial: Based on the 2005 National Electrical Code"

will give one some of the basic information of wiring.


But even if you do buy the two books it still does make one an a qualified electrician.

There is a reason why they require the years/hours it take to become a licenced electrician. It is not some thing you jsut pick up over night.

It is more than jsut pulling some wire and hooking it up to a few terminals. As you can see from the pictures you posted.

I am not doubting your skills or your abilities to do the physical work needed, but to plan and to make the decisions needed appear to beyond your experience level (this is by the questions you asked).

(no I am not a licenced electrician but I have done more than my share of wiring in the past, (most on my own properties), and my SIL is a licenced electrician and a darn good one at that. but before my son in law was licenced I never realized how much I did not know, yes I could put in a panel and run lines and to all the physical work and knew where to get wire sizes, but I talk to him and discuss many topics with him and each and ever conversation I realize how minimal I do know in some areas of the field, Why mostly because of experience,
I do auto mechanics as well, and even tho we, (my son and I) have rebuilt over 25+ motors, bored and head work the complete rebuild, until I met the machinist we now use to do much of the machine work, I never knew how much I did not know about engine rebuilding,
and after you rebuild 25+ you do have some experience, but it no were near some one who has been at it for 30 years, and has nearly seen it all.

all I am saying is it take experience as well as the book knowledge to be effective in any area.

Who knows maybe you can find some one who will let you work along side of them and learn.

Speedy Petey
08-23-2007, 04:20 PM
Her constant bleat is "I have no money" and the whole place is one band-aid fix after another. Funny thing is I heard her acquaintance say that she plans to buy a $1000 flat panel tv for the place. :mad:CLASSIC! :mad: :rolleyes:

Old Dog
08-24-2007, 04:18 AM
Hey guys,my B***S*** meter just pegged off the charts!!That looks like about 20 years of homeowner and hack "artist" screw ups to me.You show that to an inspector and he would have the electric company yank the service meter until it's fixed!
That house is a death trap!!Look at pics3 last picture.those 2 wires on the left sure look charred to me.I hope there are not any kids living in this place...
As a G.C. I have only seen a couple of houses that were as bad as this in my long career.
PLEASE,IF YOU ARE HALF THE PROFESSIONAL YOU CLAIM TO BE,THE ONLY COURSE OF ACTION IS TO BRING IN A LICENSED ELECTRICIAN.THIS FAMILIES
LIFE IS AT RISK!! IT IS "YOUR" OBLIGATION TO CONVINCE YOUR CLIENT.HE MAY HAVE TO SELL HIS SECOND CAR,TAKE OUT A LOAN BUT THAT GOD AWFUL MESS HAS TO BE FIXED RIGHT NOW!!!
(THESE ARE THE TYPE OF JOBS THAT MAKE YOU WAKE UP IN A COLD SWEAT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT...)

enosez
08-24-2007, 04:30 AM
He keeps blaming some "electrical contractor". Maybe the problem was that someone like him who thinks they know alot about electrcity came in and did the job for "a little bit of money" becasue no one wanted to pay the person who has knowledge skills and ability from the start.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!

Two rentals and he has no money! Right!

Cass
08-24-2007, 04:35 AM
Personally I would document the whole thing and work with the local inspection department and have who ever did this work prosecuted.

The work needing to be done must be done by a licensed electrician.

You are opening up your self to big time liability if you do any work on this building...don't touch anything.

I think it odd that you list all kinds of experience you have, yet ask how can I tell if it is grounded.

jwelectric
08-24-2007, 07:53 AM
Anyone else notice that this idiot has not returned to see what others have suggested

enosez
08-24-2007, 08:34 AM
Anyone else notice he used the named "KRAZE"

CRAZY!!

Speedy Petey
08-24-2007, 12:56 PM
Anyone else notice that this idiot has not returned to see what others have suggestedThat's because he is getting beat up on every board he posted this garbage to.

Old Dog
08-24-2007, 09:14 PM
That's because he is getting beat up on every board he posted this garbage to.

Sometimes you got to jump up and down on a "fellas" testicles with both feet for them to see the error of their ways...

Verdeboy
08-24-2007, 11:36 PM
I bet it's just old Joe T. messing with everyone.

frenchie
08-26-2007, 10:54 AM
Doubt it. Look at what I found...


http://www.diychatroom.com/showthread.php?t=11019




Kraze - I was reading your thread over there... if they really had that done by a licensed electrician, they CAN afford to have it fixed by a good professional licensed electrician; because they can SUE THE ORIGINAL GUY for the cost. Heck, they can probably get punitive damages!

cwhyu2
08-26-2007, 06:32 PM
Thanks Frenchie