Looking for advice on venting

[mckeand13]

Below are some pictures (and a video) of my current basement plumbing. Not being a plumber, I don't know the proper venting or requirements. I'm looking for your help to lead me in the right direction. I can do the work.

The current stack goes like this, from the floor up:

It's 4" coming out of the floor.
Next up is a 4" cleanout tee.
At the top of the cleanout tee, it drops down to 3".
A couple of elbows and it makes its way to 3 tees. 1st is a toilet drain, 2nd is vent stack, and 3rd is another toilet drain.

My plan is to put a washer standpipe in and replace the concrete washtub (which currently drains to a different drain) with a plastic one. The new washtub will drain into this stack on the left.

Here's what I'd like to do:
- 4" coming out of the floor as it is.

- 4" x 4" x 2" hub sanitary tee (with the 2" pointing back towards the wall) with a trap and standpipe for the washer.

- Directly on top of the first santee, I would put a 4x4x4x2 (right side inlet santee). The 2" would point to the right and become the drain from the washtub (with a trap).

At this point, my plans don't include any venting or any other changes to accomodate venting.

Am I ok? Is any venting necessary other than, in theory, utilizing the 3" main stack from above? There isn't any venting on the washtub as it is and it's working fine. I guess it's tied into a different stack though so it's not a good comparison.

I doubt it's possible that somebody would be flushing both toilets, washer draining, and washtub draining to completely fill the pipe.

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/stack1.jpg

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/stack2.jpg

Here's a link to a video I shot of the plumbing just for reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UagbfLO_R-o

[Basement_Lurker]

Wow I applaud your thoroughness in presenting your question and details surround it. If you do what you propose, you will be "wet venting" the washer standpipe and the wash basin. Every time someone flushes a toilet upstairs, you risk siphoning the traps down below. And besides, it is usually code to not have anything downstream of a toilet. Of course you'll have to check your local codes for venting requirements as well as allowable fixture units for a 3" stack, but I would have to say that the job is not as quick and easy as you think it is.


I hope you replace that washtub with something nicer...that thing is a beast!

[mckeand13]

Ok, I don't know any codes but I'll agree with the idea of not putting any other plumbing downstream of a crapper.

Here's my new idea, tell me what you think.

Leave the vertical stack on the left alone as it's got the toilet drains plumbed into it.

Moving over to the right vertical stack, we make some mods. The plumbing will all run along the wall from the left over to it. I would also like to use AAV's to avoid the venting issues.

1) The washer needs a standpipe. Fasten one to the wall, go in/out of a trap, and start heading towards the right with it.

2) The horizontal pipe would then meet up with a wye. The other inlet of the wye would come from the new washtub drain which would include a trap.

3) Immediately after the wye, install an AAV on a santee.

4) After AAV it would run into a new 4x4x2 tee which would be facing the wall.

5) On top of the first tee, would be another double tee. Front would be for a cleanout plug, and rear would be for a small standpipe, AAV, and trap for a softener drain.

Does this plan sound better and correct?

I'll attach a sketch in a bit here.

[mckeand13]

A quick Photoshop job for a visual. A single basin washtub is going in place of the double. Imagine this one missing half.

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/washtubmarkup.jpg

[mckeand13]

Just wondering if nobody has any suggestions, or if nobody wants to commit to any advice?

[Terry]

The 2" plastic pipe above the laundry tray drain is a vent?
Why not tie all vents into that at 42" above the floor.

Each p-trap downstairs should come off separately, and vent separately, and then tie together at 42"

The toilet waste and vent, is just wierd.

[jadnashua]

The AAV's won't work properly where you have them...they need to be ideally, above the flood rim of the sink. Under a counter, they would be as high as you could get them and still remove them when they failed.

[mckeand13]

The 2" plastic pipe above the laundry tray drain is a vent?
Why not tie all vents into that at 42" above the floor.

No, the 2" you see coming down vertically on the right side of the washtub is a drain from the kitchen and also a shower that was recently added by the previous owner. The kitchen has it's own dedicated vent (if I remember correctly from the last trip to the attic), and the shower has an AAV. This must comply with code as it passed city inspection just before we bought it.

Each p-trap downstairs should come off separately, and vent separately, and then tie together at 42"

The toilet waste and vent, is just wierd.

All of the plumbing on the left side of the washtub is original to the house. It must have met code, at least in '58 when the house was built.


Does that explain anything further?

[mckeand13]

Let's completely abandon my ideas for the minute.

I'd like to ask "how would a licensed plumber, doing it correctly, do this job"

Is that possible to answer without standing in my basement and looking at it?

:confused:

[mckeand13]

I'll ask one more question. Hopefully. I just want a plan and to get this project taken care of.

I know "wet venting" isn't the preferred way to do things, but is it ok to do so ?

Looking at my colorful drawing above, would it make sense to bring a vent up from the washer standpipe, the new washtub, and the softener drain standpipe and tie all of them together and into the pvc on the right side of the existing tub?

Note: The 2" pvc on the right side of the tub is the drain from a show (with AAV) and the kitchen sink (which has it's own true vent).

Thanks.

[markts30]

I would replace the 4X1 1/2" tapped tee with a 4X2 santee (PVC) attaching it with a transition coupling.
Above that I would re-build the stack with PVC and a new cleanout (PVC) and, above the new cleanout (about 42" to center) insert an inverted santee...
Then I would make a new lateral out of PVC with one combo to pick up the laundry sink and a sweep on the end to pick up the stand pipe for the washer...
Above the combo, use a santee for the PTrap of the tub and do the same for the standpipe for the washer...
Re-vent the 2 together and tie back into the santee you have inserted into the newly re-built vent stack.

[mckeand13]

Thanks for the reply markts30.

I think we are on the same page.

Does the drawing below look like what you are suggesting? I guess I didn't draw every component and maybe not perfectly routed, but the idea seems right?

The washer, washtub, and softener each gets it own trap and a vent. All of the vents are tied together and back into the stack.

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/washtubmarkup2.jpg

[mckeand13]

I would replace the 4X1 1/2" tapped tee with a 4X2 santee (PVC) attaching it with a transition coupling.
Above that I would re-build the stack with PVC and a new cleanout (PVC) and, above the new cleanout (about 42" to center) insert an inverted santee...
Then I would make a new lateral out of PVC with one combo to pick up the laundry sink and a sweep on the end to pick up the stand pipe for the washer...
Above the combo, use a santee for the PTrap of the tub and do the same for the standpipe for the washer...
Re-vent the 2 together and tie back into the santee you have inserted into the newly re-built vent stack.

Could you explain what you mean by combo?

Do both the washer standpipe and the washtub drain need their own trap? Or could each one just have an elbow and then lead into one trap?

[Terry]

They need their own trap and vents.
And the vents tie together above the flood level, say at 42" off the floor.

[mckeand13]

They need their own trap and vents.
And the vents tie together above the flood level, say at 42" off the floor.

Could you explain "flood level"?

[jadnashua]

If you filled the sinks up to overflowing, that is the flood rim. Code wants you to connect any vents together nominally 6" higher than that. Some places specify 42", which would take care of a normal kitchen counter height plus 6".

[GrumpyPlumber]

I would replace the 4X1 1/2" tapped tee with a 4X2 santee (PVC) attaching it with a transition coupling.
Above that I would re-build the stack with PVC and a new cleanout (PVC) and, above the new cleanout (about 42" to center) insert an inverted santee...
Then I would make a new lateral out of PVC with one combo to pick up the laundry sink and a sweep on the end to pick up the stand pipe for the washer...
Above the combo, use a santee for the PTrap of the tub and do the same for the standpipe for the washer...
Re-vent the 2 together and tie back into the santee you have inserted into the newly re-built vent stack.

We aren't allowed to use PVC under CI on a stack here (I think thats what you meant) due to the weight on the PVC.

[mckeand13]

If you filled the sinks up to overflowing, that is the flood rim. Code wants you to connect any vents together nominally 6" higher than that. Some places specify 42", which would take care of a normal kitchen counter height plus 6".

Just curious as to what effect an overflowing sink can have on a vent?

You gave me the answer, now I'm looking for the reasoning I guess.

Thanks.

[mckeand13]

Ok, I've modeled the pvc components and my basement in Solidworks.

I think I have this right. What does everybody think? Does everything look correct?

Washtub does not have a vent on it. Am I ok with this since the drain is 2"?

Washing machine standpipe is somewhat hidden in most of the pictures. Large items are washing machine, washtub, Fleck 9100 twin tank softener, brine tank.

Is there an easier or more simple way?

See pictures:

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/basement1.jpg

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/basement2.jpg

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/basement3.jpg

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/basement4.jpg

[mckeand13]

One more picture:

http://s92800444.onlinehome.us/photos/basement5.jpg

[hj]

The vent in the newest drawing is not protecting the sink drain from aspiration when the washing machine discharge is flowing past its connection. Your earlier version with two vents was one way of doing it properly. The other way would have been to connect the washer trap to the 3", (the statement about not connecting anything below a toilet applied to conditions when the stack is used as the vent), and then running the vent to another vent, (not the sink drain). AAV's can only protect against negative pressures, but anything below a toilet or washer drain can be subjected to positive pressures if they do not have an atmospheric vent. The reason why vents and flood levels are interelated is that if the vent is too low and the drain plugs up, the vent will become a secondary drain once water in the sink rises to that level.

[cwhyu2]

You still need to vent the laundry sink as discharge from washer will siphon
your L/S trap.

[jamz]

Even though you all solved my issues in a seperate thread, I think ill hang out some more and increase my knowledge.....

With that said, the last set of pictures (well done) it shows the sink discharging into a Santee on its side. I thought Santee's arent allowed on their sides.

JAmZ

[mckeand13]

Even though you all solved my issues in a seperate thread, I think ill hang out some more and increase my knowledge.....

With that said, the last set of pictures (well done) it shows the sink discharging into a Santee on its side. I thought Santee's arent allowed on their sides.

JAmZ

The sink discharges through a trap and then into a wye. Not a santee.

[mckeand13]

So if I add a vent for the wash tub, all is well?

Vent size question: Is there any reason I couldn't step the vent size down to 1.5"? Any rules on keeping it the same size as the largest drain or anything like that?

[jamz]

The sink discharges through a trap and then into a wye. Not a santee.

/me slaps forehead

I stared for 10 min at this pic and all i can say is "DUH, im an idiot"