Sweat in new shower valve question

[HDFAN1]

Had a plumber sweat in my new Kohler shower valve while he was there for some other work on Friday.

Today I start reading the directions that came with it, which he clearly did NOT read prior to starting work. First he sweated the damn thing in wrong. Don't know how, just know he said he F'ed up and had to unsweat it & re-do.

When I read the instructions this morning, it states to remove the guts of the valve before applying any heat to it.

I don't think he did this. The thing is just capped off rite now, so I cant test it. Do y'all think this would have damaged the valve in any way?
I don't want to get the walls tiled in & then find out the thing is damaged.

All advice welcome & appreciated.

[master plumber mark]

he installed it upside down --- didnt he???

Kohler is a poor valve in the first place anyway....

hard to take apart and a pain to put back together.
sometimes the trim is a nightmare to mess with too.

but its always best to take the cartridge out
before you heat them all up

I always do that with my DELTA 1700 valves...

mostly becasue it seems to give the heat and
pressure that can build up some place
to blow out into while you are soldering the joints at the faucet....

if you dont take the valve apart you risk the solder
blowing back out of the joint from the pressure
and of course its stressful on the gaskets too .


I would watch the solder joints to be sure they dont have
a pin hole leak in them

It might be ok...

but you can probably get a free cartridge from Kohler
if it does mess up

[HDFAN1]

Yeah, I think he did install it upside down.

Man, I wish I had known Kohler wasn't suct a great valve before I bought this thing.

Wouldn't I know it if the soldered joint had a pinhole? I should be seeing water right?

Also, the dumba$$ didn't get the the thing level I guess, because the copper riser that goes up to the showerhead is about 3 inches off center.

Which brings me to my next question. Will it hurt anything for me to "pull" the top of the riser over to center and screw it down. I guess my question is will this put too much pressure on the sweated joint at the valve? The riser is prolly 48" or so tall.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Have HIM do that.
If it leaks later from stress on the soldered joint, he could claim it your doing.

[hj]

My Delta valves do not come with the core inserted. It is with the trim and the valve has blank off covers for testing.

[master plumber mark]

Yea that is right about the new ones.. HJ

they do now come in the new trim pack...dont they?


I still have about 150 1700 bodies from
before the change over to the new style....


probably about 75 1400 brass bodies too. I dont think I can
get trim kits for these anymore so i just use the
cartriges up when I need to repair a 1300




still got maybe 25 1500 laying around.....




They are all great faucets and
they never spoil or go bad......

[HDFAN1]

Have HIM do that.
If it leaks later from stress on the soldered joint, he could claim it your doing.

So is it not a good idea to do it that way, stressing the connection?

[Terry]

Soldering it is prefered.

What he meant, was let the plumber repair or fix it.

[hj]

150 and 75? Was there a train wreck in front of your house and you went out and picked a few crates of them up?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I'd fire the plumber, remove the kohler valve, put in a delta and move on.

You think you got problems now, wait till that valve needs servicing and kohler's website is like a needle in a haystack finding information, along with what the supply houses are willing to have in stock.

It's not worth it in the long run. I have a kohler valve I bought off an online auction and it came with tons of other stuff...like someone indirectly was saying, "Here, take this and get it out of my hands before it breaks" LOL!!!



Off topic:

On the new Delta shower valves, what's the purpose of that black insert piece inside of the valve body? It's in the top hole of the shower valve and I've never been able to install a cartridge without removing it.

Kinda looks like an integral screen to catch debri before heading up to the shower head? :confused:

[GrumpyPlumber]

Soldering it is prefered.

What he meant, was let the plumber repair or fix it.

Exactly, you paid him to do it right...so he should do what he was paid for.
Honestly, centering a shower valve and head is very basic, unless there's a situation that prevents it. (for example, if existing trim/tile is too expensive to replace, which he should present to you as an option vs expense before making a decision to place it 3" off center)
You shouldn't have to redo work you paid for...also..as I said before, he could attempt to imply he's not liable for future troubles on his workmanship.
Example...say he forgot to sweat a joint and it leaks only after the wall is closed...
Two things you should have questioned prior to him doing any work...
Is he licensed?
Is he insured?
I answer those two questions all the time, happily.
One last note...Kohler isn't a bad name per say...just tends to be more tedious on installs.
Many plumbers rightfully prefer simpler valves with fewer parts for good reason.....less can go wrong.

[HDFAN1]

OK, I can see I need to clarify....

The valve body is centered. However, the right side of the valve is just a little bit lower to the floor than the left side.

So this makes the top of the 48 inch riser , where the shower head & pipe (???) screw in about three inches to the right of center

I don't really want this guy back in my house, to be honest. So I was gonna just pull the top of the riser over to center and screw it to the blocking. But from what yall are saying, that prolly isn't the best idea.

Plus, I dont know for sure if the valve was damaged when he sweated it in wrong, then unsweated it, and then sweated it in again without removing the valve body.

Should I just eat it & go buy a delta and hire a different plumber?

[frenchie]

That'd be my advice - what Rugged said - get someone who knows what they're doing this time.

[HDFAN1]

OK, where does one find Delta 1700 and how much? Don't want anything fancy, just reliable. The Kohler unit with trim was ~$200 at Lowes. Wanna stay in that ballpark if I can.

Also, this is a tub/shower combo. Does that matter? 1700 still will work?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Should I just eat it & go buy a delta and hire a different plumber?


This will be the best move you'll make, take that burned up valve back to the store (trust me, they'll take it back :eek: :D)

and do the above. The 1700 series isn't as common as the 1300 or 1500 series, but any 3 of those would be a good investment.

The 1700 series has separate temp/volume controls aside from the latter. That way you hop in the shower and turn the lever up and you have the setting you left it at the day before.

[HDFAN1]

Can I get it at lowes or H depot?

And why the heck would they take it back? I would be embarassed to go in there with solder & black crap all over the thing & try & get my money back.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Can I get it at lowes or H depot?

And why the heck would they take it back? I would be embarassed to go in there with solder & black crap all over the thing & try & get my money back.

LOL...so would I.
HD or Lowes should carry them, but if yer gonna get a new plumber, I'd have him grab it.
and again...check to see if he's legit...get what you pay for.

[master plumber mark]

I agree with RUGGED ...that valve is a joke
and I would rather take a beating than have to
try to find parts to repair one after only 2 years have passed.

a 1700 valve should be available anywhere
for about $145.00





HJ...
my stock of valves has come from the supply houses
that needed to dump them at inventory time...
Because I always pay my bill on time and they give me
first dibbs on all the faucets they have robbed for parts
and track pack bodies that were restocked ect....


and when the counter guys need to dump delta goodies
I ALWAYS give the fellow that turns me on to the
treasure trove usually a 50 dollar gift cert to a nice
restraunt.

when they discontinued the 1500 and
switched over to the 1700
they were left stuck with literally hundreds of them that they
could not sell anymore...most suply houses were...



basically I got the bodies for pratcially nothing..

less than 5 bucks each.

it was a great windfalll at the time cause

they dont ever ever spoil

[HDFAN1]

Mark, I assume $145 is the valve only? Been at Lowes.com, and the whole deal is lookin like ~$250.

[master plumber mark]

I just talked a lady out of a 1400 nice looking Delta
single handle tub and shower faucet new in the box
on Friday......she paid $135 for everything at LOWES.

I told her that the 1700 was the best series to go with
and for her to take it back.

I put in one of my 1700 valve bodies and a common chrome 1700 trim instead for her.

unless you are trying to get
something in Nickle, Stainless steel or some other fancy
color or brushed satin it should be available complete in a
COMMMON CHROME style at LOWES for 145-165??


here ia a link to one that I found on line that is actually much
nicer looking than the common one I put in friday at $155

http://www.faucet.com/decor/product.pl?mid=3624&fh=Chrome&rpp=12&N=222+3000606+103+55+3000170+135


actually, that is a pretty nice site I found.....
free overnight shippnig, and it looks like the professionals get another
%30 off that list price....


I just made an application for fun.

[GrumpyPlumber]

RUGGED and MARK,
I been meaning to ask you two a question regarding shower valves...
Do you guys have Symmons in your area's?
They're made where I am, so I'd guess we have a stronger affinity for them.
They're solid, all brass stem & parts...when you turn the handle there's no play, because of that.
they're also the co. that invented pressure balancing.
My thing with Delta shower valves is they seem to be too flimsy...too much plastic inside.
Ironically they're a little more expensive than Symmons too.

[HDFAN1]

Thanks Mark, that is the exact one I have my eye on, but due to the overall bath remodel scheme, I need brushed nickel. Laid my hands on it at Lowes today. The guy who works the plumbing dept told me that the one handle Deltas don't hold up too well. I dunno!

[HDFAN1]

Oh and by the way. Today I called the plumbing co. who installed the valve and spoke to the owner. I explained my concerns and told him I wanted to give him an opportunity to rectify the situation.

He said he would send a more experienced guy out tomorrow to unsweat the valve & install the Delta, and told me, "Don't let him leave untill you are happy"

So I am feelin' a little better about the whole deal. I will let y'all know how it comes out.

[GrumpyPlumber]

HDFAN,
As a self employed plumber, I'd rather you call me back..I take a hit and leave you happy...reason...what you say after I leave is how I get my business.
He sounds like a reputable guy to deal with...easy to get all worked up when left to your own devices.

[HDFAN1]

Yep Grumpy, the guy seems to be trying to do the right thing. Heck, he should as I have spent ~$1600 on his services in the last 12 weeks.

[Terry]

http://www.terrylove.com/images/terry/pipes_shower.jpg
Here are two Kohler valves and the lower one is a Delta

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Nice work Terry, nothing beats a well done copper job.

To Grumpy,

Symmons is rare in KY but common in the older more pristine homes/areas in Cincinnati in the wealthier neighborhoods. I do know they make a good valve but it's common to work on those about 30+ years old.

They also take rebuilds good as well. As far as buying one? No. And that is only because it is not common in my area. It would kinda like be putting a Wolverine Brass in someone's house and then let them fish out of a mud puddle looking for rebuild parts at supply houses.

[master plumber mark]

I dont care for them too much probably because the
only ones I see are in need of major repairs and
they are 40+ years old...

its more trouble to try to repair one looking for the
parts ect ect...than it is to put something new and shiney and easy to work on for the customer...


DELTA is made about 15 miles from me so they have
a pretty good foot-hold in this area...

and they are time tested here in probably the worst water
in the USA at like 22 parts hard for city water.....


MOEN is made up around CHICAGO and I guess that
is the most popular valve up there ....although I think that
they are junk...

Same with KOHLER up in Wisconson??
They are junk too


I honestly have very little experience foolong with
the Symmons becasue we dont see them....

but the DELTA 1500 and 1700 I have installed
thousands since 1990 with never a single complaint

[Cass]

You want to keep a plumbing company that will take care of customers like that.

It can be difficult to find a good plumbing company and I think it is even harder for plumbing companys to find good plumbers to work for them.


Oh and by the way. Today I called the plumbing co. who installed the valve and spoke to the owner. I explained my concerns and told him I wanted to give him an opportunity to rectify the situation.

He said he would send a more experienced guy out tomorrow to unsweat the valve & install the Delta, and told me, "Don't let him leave untill you are happy"

So I am feelin' a little better about the whole deal. I will let y'all know how it comes out.

[George R]

RUGGED Said



Off topic:

On the new Delta shower valves, what's the purpose of that black insert piece inside of the valve body? It's in the top hole of the shower valve and I've never been able to install a cartridge without removing it.

Kinda looks like an integral screen to catch debri before heading up to the shower head?


Yep, you're right RUGGED. I just put in a 1700 today. That "integral screen" is dealt with in the instructions. I believe they call it a "solder guard" or something like that. You're supposed to solder in the body, pressurize everything to check for leaks, shut off the water, remove the screen (and supposed debris), and then insert the cartridge.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Nice work Terry, nothing beats a well done copper job.

To Grumpy,

Symmons is rare in KY but common in the older more pristine homes/areas in Cincinnati in the wealthier neighborhoods. I do know they make a good valve but it's common to work on those about 30+ years old.

They also take rebuilds good as well. As far as buying one? No. And that is only because it is not common in my area. It would kinda like be putting a Wolverine Brass in someone's house and then let them fish out of a mud puddle looking for rebuild parts at supply houses.

Thats a bummer, here even HD has the stems/parts for Symmons.
Kinda funny how every area has their own standards that are so often based on simple availability.

[HDFAN1]

Update time.....the guy came out looked it over and called his boss.
Came back in & asked me if he can prove the valve undamaged, and get it centered would that be ok. I agreed.

Now I don't really approve of the way he "centered" the valve. He just heated the copper supply lines with a torch & "bent" them over. Looks like crap, but I guess once the tile goes up, it won't matter.

Next, I went to Lowes looking for a valve/trim kit for my stand up shower which is next on my remodel agenda. Found a Delta 1400 series. Price was right, $144.

Is the 1400 series a good valve? I assume it is just a little older model?

[master plumber mark]

they are ok....but they are considered the
cheaper line because you cant control the amount
of pressure you a re gonna get hit with.....

you can only control the temp....



this is not acceptable for some people to have full
volume pressuer pounding on them and I dont
care for them to much either to have a no volume
control on the faucet


i have had to change out a few before because
of this...

[HDFAN1]

never had a shower that had a volume control on it before, so I guess I won't notice any difference.

As long as it's a reliable valve, then I'm happy.