Removing Unwanted Electrical Box

[Verdeboy]

I need to deep 6 this electrical Box and repair the hole in the wall of this adobe house. What's the best way to proceed?
FYI, this is in the kitchen, and there's plenty of outlets in there already.

[Verdeboy]

No advice on how to cap off this line and bury it in the wall?

[George R]

You CAN'T bury it in the wall. But you can turn the conduit by 90 degrees (either horizontal or vertical), keep the wires in a flush mounted box, cap the lines, and put a blank cover plate over it. (Assuming it doesn't feed another box).

Alternatively, you can trace the wires that feed this box and then disconnect them at the source and then just remove the box.

[Verdeboy]

Thanks for the help. I said "bury it in the wall" just to get someone's attention.:)

[frenchie]

George - FIY - Verde isn't a homeowner working on his own place, he's working for hire.

Verde - Look up your state laws.

I'm not saying you always have to follow the rules; I understand you maybe just need to put food on the table. But I'm not going to help you do it.

[Verdeboy]

Wow!

First there's "Grumpy Plumber," now there's "Grumpy Electrician."

Frenchie, FYI, I've installed about 1000 light switches, 1000 receptacles, 1000 light fixtures, 1000 garbage disposals, numerous range hoods, swamp cooler pumps, fan motors, and various other minor electrical installations and repairs in my 20 years working in apartment maint. and as a General Handyman--all in homes and apartments I don't own.

If you want to go "Joe Tedesco" on me that's your right, but I'll keep improving my knowledge base with or without your help.

[frenchie]

Relax, bro. I'm not an electrician, I'm a GC.

All I said was, I'm not going to help you break the law. Didn't say you had to follow it - just that I ain't going to help you break it. How is that going Joe T on you?

As for your extensive experience... If you've done that much electrical work, what's up with this rookie question?

20 years? Between this and the tile countertop on 1/2 ply, I thought you were some young guy, just starting out...

[HandyAndy]

If it was me I would do similar to what George said, I would probably use a new box, (to eliminate the open knock outs) and enter from the rear and set it in flush with the adobe wall and plaster it back up and leave the outlet, unless there is some other reason to move/remove it. other wise go to the source of the flex and disconnect and pull the whole thing, and then plug the knock out on the other box that was entered into by the flex. and then plaster over the hole.

[Verdeboy]

Relax, bro. I'm not an electrician, I'm a GC.

All I said was, I'm not going to help you break the law. Didn't say you had to follow it - just that I ain't going to help you break it. How is that going Joe T on you?

As for your extensive experience... If you've done that much electrical work, what's up with this rookie question?

20 years? Between this and the tile countertop on 1/2 ply, I thought you were some young guy, just starting out...
RE: Electrical,
1. I've never encountered a situation like this with adobe (I'm from Michigan). 2. I like to hear how a pro would do it, if nothing else, to confirm what I already think.

RE: Tiling a countertop,
Never done one before. Guilty as charged.

RE: Breaking the Law,
I follow my conscience. It's always clear, unlike many laws, rules, and codes. And it hasn't let me down yet.

[frenchie]

RE: Electrical,
1. I've never encountered a situation like this with adobe (I'm from Michigan).

Your question wasn't about the adobe part of it - even on the other thread you started, which was nominally about the adobe, you wound up saying:


If I didn't have the electrical to worry about, I'd just fill the hole with rocks and dirt, attach the stucco wire (somehow), and stucco the outside. The electrical is the problem.


I agree with you about the conscience bit. Mine'd give me a hard time, charging money for something I didn't know how to do.

[Verdeboy]

I agree with you about the conscience bit. Mine'd give me a hard time, charging money for something I didn't know how to do.
Mine, too. Which is why I try to gather as much info as possible on a subject, and if I still don't feel comfortable, I turn down the job. I'll probably turn down the counter tiling job for just that reason.

[abikerboy]

Not much with plumbing, heat, or air, but I can answer some electrical questions (and no, Im not a pro). Here, you can cap the wires and terminate them in a box with a blank cover, but that box and cover HAS to be accessible and exposed. You cant panel over it, paper over it, or hide it in or behind a wall. Check code and see what they say there, and have fun!

[Verdeboy]

Thanks Andy and Biker,

If I disconnect that wire at the breaker box, but am unable to pull it out of the wall, do I still need to terminate the unused wire in the same way?

[Mikey]

If you can find the other end of the flex, you might be able to pull the individual wires out of the flex, then I think you could cover up the box.

[dx]

Thanks Andy and Biker,

If I disconnect that wire at the breaker box, but am unable to pull it out of the wall, do I still need to terminate the unused wire in the same way?


Yes you do. You cannot bury any boxes or wire ends regardless of whether they are connected to anything or not.

Not only is this required by code, but doing otherwise would expose you to huge liability. Can you say "fire hazard" ? :)

dx

[Bob NH]

If you cut off both ends and make sure it is not connected to anything in any box or at the source, then it is not a circuit and is not covered by the code. There is a lot of wire that is abandoned in structures because it can't be removed.

The only NEC requirements that I can find requiring removal of abandoned cable relate to communication type cables that are accessible.

I found nothing that requires removal of inaccessible cables or removal of power cables.

Perhaps dx can furnish a citation of the code paragraph that requires removal of abandoned power wiring.

[abikerboy]

Done some asking around here...if you cut the wire short (as stated above) so it cannot be connected at either end, then you can panel/paint/paper or plaster over it at both ends. It is an unused conductor, and code does not apply. When you have a house rewired, they usually abandon the old wires in this fashion, rather than destroying walls and pulling them all. Have fun!

[jwelectric]

I need to deep 6 this electrical Box and repair the hole in the wall of this adobe house. What's the best way to proceed?
FYI, this is in the kitchen, and there's plenty of outlets in there already.

Install the device as a flush mount device by changing the type of box and then repair the hole.

Repairing in this manner there is neither worry about the abandonment of conductors in the wall nor any worries about receptacle placement. There can never be plenty of receptacles and thus the relief to just abandon one. Someone went to a lot of trouble to install that device and it is hard to believe that they did all that work for something that was not needed.


Please post a picture of your finished work so we can see the great job that we know you will do.

[Old Dog]

Is that on the same circuit as the kitchen plugs?Are the kitchen plugs gfi protected? I would'nt leave that in the kitchen area if I didn't plan on putting it on the business side of a gfi...thats how people end up on a slab in a hospital basement somewhere.Don't bury it either!Kill it and remove it.
(2 months ago I opened a wall under a stairwell,found a live wire from a dryer plug taped with masking tape,not even wire nuts!fire waiting to happen...)

[Verdeboy]

There can never be plenty of receptacles and thus the relief to just abandon one. Someone went to a lot of trouble to install that device and it is hard to believe that they did all that work for something that was not needed.
Au contraire. There is another properly placed, flush mount receptacle within 4 inches of this one and a dozen more scattered around the room. In case you didn't notice, there is a large hole in the wall, and there's no drywall or studs to anchor this box to. Hence, the need to deep-six it.


Please post a picture of your finished work so we can see the great job that we know you will do.
I picture you gritting your teeth as you wrote this. :)

[Verdeboy]

Is that on the same circuit as the kitchen plugs?Are the kitchen plugs gfi protected? I would'nt leave that in the kitchen area if I didn't plan on putting it on the business side of a gfi...thats how people end up on a slab in a hospital basement somewhere.Don't bury it either!Kill it and remove it.
(2 months ago I opened a wall under a stairwell,found a live wire from a dryer plug taped with masking tape,not even wire nuts!fire waiting to happen...)

I'm going back there today to find out if it's on its own circuit. As far as GFI's go, my understanding is that only outlets near sinks and tubs are supposed to be protected.

I'm not going to comment on your last experience, because that is gross negligence and incompetence.

[jwelectric]

Please post a picture of your finished work so we can see the great job that we know you will do.I picture you gritting your teeth as you wrote this. :)
Not at all, I am serious, I would like to see the device mounted in a box and plastered into the wall with the device being left flush. No matter now many receptacles are around it would be the easiest fix to your problem.
Use this box or one simular to it

http://www.hubbell-raco.com/images/product/21_large.jpg

Only receptacles in a kitchen that need protecting with GFCI are those over the countertop.

What I would like to know. What is that item between the paneled wall and the plastered wall? Is that some type of cord?

[Verdeboy]

That's not a paneled wall. It's a free-standing kitchen cabinet that the electrical box has been so professionally mounted to.

That "cord" is really a 1/4" copper supply line for the frig icemaker.

[jwelectric]

That's not a paneled wall.
Okay now just change the device and put it in a box such as the one posted and plaster away.

Nothing to be cut loose and nothing to remove, quick and easy.

[HandyAndy]

take some plumbers strap or a couple of brick ties, or similar, take a handy box like is there, screw the strap to the back of the box,

what you should have a box with some straps on the back side of it so there is some thing to anchor it with,

if you need to dig a little more of the adobe out then do so to get it to fit, and and if you have dug out behind the existing stucco a little so it will key in behind it.


attach the flex coming through the wall there to the best suited knock out of the box, put the box into the hole, take some coat hanger or wire and make a few V shaped rods, or used screws or similar, bend the strap and then pin or screw the straps into the adobe or use screws or what ever, some thing to hold the box in place, then mix up some sand and mortar cement, 3 sand to one cement mortar, or pre mixed) and plaster around it, if you need to do in layers (rough up the under coats so that the top layers have something to grip to, if you need to put some chicken wire around to support the surface, (like is in the stucco in the wall already), and work it up to level, if and then paint, and put the receptacle back in the box and a cover on the box, If that box pulls out it will have to take the entire patch with it, and if you have dug out behind the existing stucco a little so it will key in behind it , it would have to take out a section of the wall.

(I don't think you would really even need the straps but it would make it easier to hold in place and help secure it and key it in the mortar)

(NO I have never worked with adobe before, I have done a lot with stucco and mortar and block and so forth), I don't see why it would not work with adobe, since it is basically a mud block that is usuly stuccoed for a wall finish and to protect the dirt wall behind,

If I was doing the job this is how I would proceed, or in similar fashion, with out being there there may be some changes by space needs or practically but in general I would figure some way to support the box and hold it, who knows may be even some thing temporally attached to the cabinet, and then mud it in,

tape over the box to keep mud out of it,

[Bob NH]

" . . . sand and mortar cement, 3 sand to one cement mortar, or pre mixed) and plaster around it, "

I like to use plaster of paris for repairs like this. It sets up hard in a few minutes (sometimes too few minutes). You can usually put some wet plaster of paris in the hole and push in whatever you are installing, and hold it while it sets up.

[Verdeboy]

You know what they say about assuming: It makes an a$$ out of u and me. I had assumed that the only wires leading into that box came from inside the wall. I was wrong.:o It's actually part of a larger circuit, so capping it off is not an option.

The homeowner wants to lose that cabinet, so I'm thinking of removing all the wires from that outlet, getting rid of the cabinet, re-routing the flex conduit and anchoring it to the wall, rewiring that same outlet in that same box, patching the wall, and mounting the box onto that patch (somehow).

Sound kosher?

[jwelectric]

Click here (http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/cd/images/LilyBCS/reduced640/D8_Cat_Dozer%20(2).JPG) to see the tool that you need to use on this job.
This tool will help to remove the old circuit without very much effort and make the reinstallation easier.

[sbrn33]

Please don't make this harder than it should be.
Follow the MC cable back to the point where somebody scabbed this in and remove the flex, box and all. If there is not a need for the receptacle just get rid of it.
It probably runs to one of the outlets around it, find that box take the wires out and call it good.
Scott

[Old Dog]

Only receptacles in a kitchen that need protecting with GFCI are those over the countertop...
Your absolutely right.
The only reason I mentioned doing it is because it has been my experience that homeowners/renters will run cheap electric chords to the kitchen area if there is not enough plugs or the plugs aren't in a convenient spot.That plug looks close to the cabinets,would most likely get some type of appliance plugged into it.
I guess I just worry about these things when I do repairs.(especially in houses where previous work has been done but not inspected...