Plumbing Conundrum

Hey guys....20 year electrician here with what is, most likely, a 1st year plumbing question.

I live in an apartment and our water bill has recently been on a steady increase. We had contacted the water company and were advised the rates had gone up and we had a larger consumption than we had previously. We didn't think much about it until we received a $180 water bill for the last 2 months (3x the norm). We then contacted the emergency line for the water company and they had someone out later that evening. The technician checked our meter which was spinning like crazy with no water running anywhere within the apartment. He told us we were losing anywhere from 2-3 gallons a minute and that we had a leak somewhere past the meter. He also stated that other peoples' water consumption in the building (24 apartments total) was having a direct relation to ours (i.e. when other people were using water our consumption went down and visa versa). The "maintenance man" was called and eventually the problem (according to him) was traced back to my closet where the water enters our apartment. He came the next morning and removed (not replaced) a part in the incoming line with a cap. This is what it looks like now:





The part he removed and capped (on the right hand side of the bottom picture) looked similar (but definitely not the same) to the part on the left hand side of the bottom picture. This part also had a tube running to the floor drain and water was pouring out of it the night before. I'm assuming that it was some sort of relief valve (there was no manual shut off on it).

I have several questions regarding this (we live in North Carolina):

1) If possible from my hazy description - what was the part he removed?

2) If that part was the problem, shouldn't it have been replaced instead of removed entirely (I assume, at one point, it was a code required installation)?

3) If that part was bad, is it possible that my meter was taking the overage of pressure supplying my entire building by draining the excess through it and into my drain?

4) If the answer to question #3 is "Yes" then, is it possible that someone else had this problem prior to me and, as a result of removing their part, the problem was transferred to me?

Thank you in advance for any light you can shed on this problem. I've just got a sneaky suspicion that our "maintenance man" just fixed a gaping head wound with a band aid.

Thanks,

Jon

Thanks for the quick reply Grumpy.

I just went and checked the meter and it is no longer spinning.

The apartments we live in are approximately 10 years old (not sure if that has something to do with the PRV instead of an expansion tank). From what I gather this is not the first PRV that has been removed and replaced with a cap ("maintenance man" stated that he runs into this problem all the time and all he had to do was remove the PRV to fix the problem. He also stated that there was already one there, speaking of the priming tube perhaps, and that the one he cut out and capped wasn't necessary).

So.....what the "maintenance man" did is definitely a code violation I would assume and the problem needs to be addressed by an actual plumber who knows what he's doing before larger problems arise.

As far as the other questions regarding the overage of pressure, etc.....are any of those possible scenarios?

Thanks again for your time,

Jon

Just a terminology correction: The Pressure Regulating Valve (PRV) is still in the system. It's the brass valve with the blue tag on it.

Relief valves should not be removed from any system. Either replace it or put in an expansion tank. Obviously an expansion tank is the preferred solution in this particular case.

Thank you for the correction CHH....I was taking PRV to mean "Pressure Relief Valve".

Is it possible then that, if the "maintenance man" has been removing these relief valves and capping them instead of replacing them or adding an expansion tank, this could directly result in or relief valve failing or our consumption increasing so dramatically? I'm asking because of what the water company tech said about others' consumption affecting our meter.

Thanks,

Jon

The relief valve failed because it broke/wore out. The PRV isolates your system from any high pressures in the rest of the building. In other words, removing relief valves from other systems has no affect on the relief valve in your system.

If the PRV failed then perhaps your relief valve might respond to high pressure from the utility. You may want to check the pressure on your side of the plumbing to be sure that it is near 60 psi.

Other tenants' plumbing should not impact your pressure since they should be isolated by their PRVs.

Thank you Grumpy...I was wondering what the primer was for.

Thank you CHH....what you have stated makes perfect sense. I was trying to grasp the concept of what the water company tech was telling us and it just didn't seem logical that other apartments water usage should affect us.

I have two last questions for you guys and I'll leave you in peace (I swear!).

1) Is what the "maintenance man" did legal by code (I'm assuming it's not).

2) What are the possible repercussions of the removal of any sort of relief valve / expansion tank? I'm guessing, for starters, water is now going to start flowing out of the TPR valve on the side of the water heater filling the catch pan and rusting the bottom of the water heater as it is not elevated by anything in the pan. There is an inch of water in it presently.

First question: It may be "legal" if the PRV is set less than 80 psi and the building plans don't call for an expansion tank or relief valve.

Second question: Well you can rest comfortably knowing that none of your plumbing appliances are leaking if the T&P on the water heater is opening now. Ok, so much for the bright side. Call the building maintenance guy and ask him why the T&P is opening now. If he doesn't have the correct answer, provide it for him. If he still isn't convinced call the local building department for an inspection.

A pressure reduction valve is a one-way valve...water can come in but can't go back out. When you use hot water from the tank, it is replaced by cold, denser water. WHen you heat it back up, it expands. If you aren't using any water, it then trips the T&P valve on your WH, which is why it is filling up your pan. Basically, when you have a closed system (a prv) you must have an expansion tank, or you will be popping the T&P. Continued discharge from them will often lime them up and could prevent them from closing or stick closed eventually. Not a good situation.

Thank you both very much for your time and informative answers. I needed to understand what was going on here for both my personal curiosity as well as the fact that my apartment community is not willing to take any responsibility for my outrageously high water bill. They've cited the reasoning as "we can't fix what we don't know about". Our reasoning is "we can't let you know to fix something if we don't know it's broken". We never heard anything leaking or any excess water running or we would have notified them immediately. The $180 water bill was the wake up call. All we've asked them to do is help us with the current bill (none of the ones we've already paid that were on the high side) as this is a malfunction of their property not a result of neglect on our part. I at least now am informed enough to correct the "maintenance man's" inept diagnosis of the problem. We find it highly inappropriate that our apartment community would offer a new tenant with whom they have no track record $400 off their 1st month's rent but push us to the side after 6 years of perfect rental history over $100 due to a malfunction of their property. Go figure.............

Thanks again guys....your help is much appreciated!

Jon

GrumpyPlumber said:

"We can't fix what we don't know about" is BS!

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Their reasoning of this is that we should have notified them when our water bill started increasing. Our water bill was averaging about $60 every 2 months and then jumped up to $74 one month. We called the water company and they explained it was due to our consumption and a raise in rates. The raise in rates was minimal however we had a new grandson whom we were now giving baths, washing extra clothes, dishes, etc. We chalked it up to that. The bill stayed around there for awhile give or take $5-10 then jumped to $92 then to $180. When we hit $180 I KNEW something was wrong that had nothing to do with rates or washing extra clothes and that's when we called the water company and they sent someone out. We never heard the pressure relief valve leaking and when the "maintenance men" came up to the apartment they didn't hear it either......until we opened the closet door. Then one of them stated it sounded kind of like the AC (which we have an in-wall unit directly above the water heater) and I said "Yeah....or maybe the water heater" to which he agreed. It was a slow kind of a hissing noise.

We've asked them to incur PART of this $180 bill, not all of it and absolutely none of the prior bills. The manager called us back this morning wanting us to come to the office Monday morning to conference call the water company to get THEM to pay for it! It's not their fault.

Their basic argument is that they are not willing to pay anything because we should have notified them as soon as our water bill increased.

GrumpyPlumber said:

The job was originally done by someone who didn't know what they were doing and didn't have a license to do it.

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Actually, I believe this was the original pressure relief valve that the "maintenance man" removed. These apartments are about 10 years old and we've lived here for 6 of those. However, the work he performed to fix this problem is definitely wrong and shows his lack of knowledge (and licensing) in the plumbing field.

GrumpyPlumber said:

One last thing...the fact that there is a pool of water in your water heaters safety pan is a very bad sign...without the old relief valve it sounds like the T&P is taking it's place.
DON'T let some "handyman" come in and mess with that.

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We have notified the manager of the water now collecting in the pan and she sent the other "maintenance man" to check the problem. He was here within 5 minutes and his solution: "Monday I'll order another pop-off valve (the T&P) for the water heater and we'll replace that. Sometimes the spring goes bad in those and you have to replace them. That's the reason the water is leaking into the pan." I explained to him 3 times that I had never noticed this until the other guy removed that "thing" (pointing to where the pressure relief valve was now replaced with a cap) which he seemed to dismiss.

So, it seems, the solution now is to replace a perfectly good T&P thats doing it's job (I know they are not designed to take the place of an expansion tank or relief valve, but I assume it is working properly if it is expelling the excess pressure) with a brand new T&P.......that will do the exact same thing. Brilliant!!!

I did not explain to him what I have learned in this thread about the workings of this system because, for one, I feel they should know their job. Secondly, why waste my breath. I have, on several occasions, offered my input on problems that have arisen that we've had to call about, only to be dismissed because they know what they're doing (We had a problem with our AC not coming on and I told them that it was a bad coil in the contactor in the unit outside. 6 service calls later and they had the problem fixed... "You know what it was?" he said... "The coil had gone bad in the unit outside" Go figure.) And, last but not least, I plan, as Grumpy has suggested, on having a licensed plumber come by and sign a statement as to the incorrect work that has been performed. If, on Monday morning, the water company refuses to reduce the bill (and who could blame them if they did?) and the apartment community still refuses to incur their share of it, I will be notifying my good friends down at the inspections department (you make a few of those working with them for 20 years). I'm getting to the point now where I'm almost willing to eat the $180 if I have the satisfaction of knowing it will cost the apartment community thousands to fix the many problems caused by their "handy man". When he removed our relief valve he did make the statement that he'd had to do this before in other units because of the same problem and that it was ok because there was already one on the line (speaking of the primer).


Once again I would like to thank all of you for your time, input, and vast knowledge regarding this problem. I always love learning new things and you guys have helped tremendously with that. Here's hoping you all stay as busy as you want to be!

Jon