PEX Help

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Statjunk

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Hey guys,

Tomorrow I'll be plumbing a long PEX run and I'm going to borrow the crimping tool so I need to be very efficient. I have a bunch of questions that I'm hoping you guys can answer.

1) How do I terminate the pex when I'm ready to jump into the plumbing fixture, like a shower or a toilet?

2) When turning a 90 degree angle passing through a stud and down into the wall do you just push the Pex into the hole or do I need to use a 90 degree fitting? (ie how flexible is this stuff ?)

3) Should the clamps holding the PEX down be tight or loose?

4) Since I'm running the PEX through the attic why kind of insulation should I use, the black foam stuff or fiber glass ($1.30 per foot and I'm going to need over 200') ?

Thanks

Tom
 

Got_Nailed

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All of these questions I think you should ask your building department. I must tell you’re our building codes are bad compared to a lot of them.

I do think that your first step would be to call them and tell them that you’re thinking about doing some PEX and ask them some questions and if you need a permit. The permit and bit you in the as if you don’t get one and then you sell the house if one was needed.

To ternate for you sinks and such I always use copper into the wall. I use standard shutoffs. A lot of people use the plastic ones made for PEX but I don’t like the long term reliability of them (after they are turned off and on a few dozen times they start to leak, copper will leak lock up if there not turned off and on every few months).

Where I’m at you must use 90’s for everything.

You have to clamp the PEX every 20†and they must be tight.

If it dose not look neat then they will make us redo it.

As far as insulation it depends on where you live.

I don’t like the rolls of PEX that have been sitting around a long time because they end up as ovals at the ends and make it hard to termite with out leaks.

If you’re not using a home run system I would use 3/4 for your main supply lines and T off to 1/2 for stuff like the toilet and sinks. The kitchen sink, bath tubes, showers, and feeding your outside house should be 3/4 IMO.



PS…
1) I will warn you I’m not a fan of PEX and don’t like to use it because of the building codes where I live at. Most everything that I do is copper and that’s what most of the non cheapo house have where I live. PEX is a good product depending on what manufacture you use as long as it is installed right and you use the right tools (every manufacture has there own tools).

2) I do hope (and know) that some one will pop on and give you some better words.

3) it would help if you give the brand that you are looking at and give a location of where you live.
 

Jadnashua

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Some of the manufacturers have copper pipe terminations - they have the 90 built-in and dog ears to anchor things along with the proper pex fitting for a clean install. The turning radius depends on the pipe and the diameter. You don't want it to kink, but it will turn a fairly sharp bend. They do have special sleeves to guide it into a 90 that work quite well, I've used them for feeds on radiant heat in the floor where it goes from vertical to horizontal for the loops in the floor.

While pex is fairly resistant to bursting if the water freezes, insulation won't necessarily prevent it - insulation doesn' create heat, it just slows the loss of it. In the winter, the cold water could be close to freezing in the line, so there isn't much heat to loose before it freezes. Flow keeps introducing warmer (relatively) water to the mix, so that slows that action. Unless you can run the pipe under the insulation, near the ceiling and it freezes where you live, simple pipe insulation won't cut it.
 
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Construct30

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I always like to take the insulation out from under a pipe in an attic and make a little tent out of insulation over the pipes. That way the heat from the house will keep the water from freezing.

As for the straps, always use the right strap for the brand of pex you are using and follow their instructions. The PEX will expand and contract and you must not make it tight and straight on long runs. Go to the zurn pex website, they have detailed instructions in PDF format. It will not look straight and pretty like copper, but if done right it can look professional, but always allow for expansion and contraction, never ever strap it tight as said previously. Any inspector will let you install as per the manufacturer's instructions for any product so print them out and have them there to show him or her. If not they should be reported. PEX is approved for use and can be installed as per manufacturer's instructions in almost all areas. If in doubt call the local building inspector or zoning officer to find out.

mark
 

Statjunk

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Well then I guess that is my biggest problem. I can't run it under the insulation. I would have to cut an awful lot of holes to run that far. I would have to drill and pull the PEX about 70' with 16" on center jousts to go that far.

Any suggestions on how I keep the pipes from freezing?

Tom
 

Geniescience

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shove insulation aside, place Pex, and shove insulation back. Cover the line with plastic sheeting (any kind) 3' or 4' wide, to trap air more "there, where the plumbing is," and also to identify where the Pex line is, so it is less likely to get squashed when someone steps around there one day in the far future.

that is only one suggestion. As mentioned above, it depends on your local climate, and it depends on what that insulation is, too.

Trapping air is what insulation is all about. In little compartments, thin layers, small bubbles. To keep air still. Even little bubbles in bubblewrap have air movement in them, and the movement transfers warm molecules to the upper wall which then trnasfers heat upwards in a progression that nothing can stop. Heat always migrates, in every direction, and heat in air moves upwards too. The worst performance is from uncovered "fiberglass" batts; air moves through them as easily as it moves through a furnace filter. They only desrve their R rating in a tightly controlled laboratory setting. A real attic has more moisture and more air movement than any lab test which was designed by the way by the fiberglas manufacturer :cool: :eek: :eek: and then used to show how fast a single degree of temperature change occurs when material X is used, in a windless and dry box with an insulated partition in the middle. The results would be worse for fiberglass if the partition were positioned like a floor or ceiling, horizontally. And even worse again if wind or moisture were introduced. Ask you attic if air can move around in it, or if humidity is high.

The only other key component of insulation is radiation reflection, radiant barrier. This is less critical when the temperature differences are only a few degrees, and more critical when the temp differences in question are huge amounts, like when the sun's direct rays touch something or send heat through something - like your roof. A radiant barrier adds airtightness too, if you seal the panel seams, tape the aluminum coated bubblewrap sheets together, etc.

You will notice a difference in terms of comfort (sensation of warmth as opposed to feeling cold walls or cold structure) and in the lower cost of heating. How much depends again on the building (how it was originally built ) and on your climate including wind not just temperature or humidity.

Do you need to do this? Partially? Totally? You don't need to do this "because it's Pex." You need to do something, depending on your particular case, because you are running cold water through a pipe - any pipe, copper or Pex - in a cold attic, in a climate that freezes, -- you get the picture. It all depends.


I'd at least trap air around the Pex, in the vicinity of the Pex, and obviously that means on top of the Pex with a lot of insulation above the Pex, new or old insulation. It wouldn't sound reasonable to me, to lay the Pex on top of the existing insulation. Never heard of attic insulation that couldn't be moved and put back. You can also toss down new insulation on top of it all too, and unroll a sheet of plastic over that, in very little time. Chances are, there is not a lot of insulation there. Overall, spending money on attic insulation is not a big priority when houses get built.


David
 
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Statjunk

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The first 70' of run of PEX is perpendicular to the joist runs. So I can't just pull up the insulation and lay it back down. I would have to drill through all the joists.

I'm going to run the pipes along the side of my duct work and insulate the pipes with the black foam stuff and tape the seams.

This should work.

Thanks to all.

Tom
 

Geniescience

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sounds good. Whatever works for you.

one person posted above about making a tent out of the insulation. I think that means he runs the pipe above the joists, like you are going to do, and he places the insulation above the pipe. This means the insulation is no longer in contact with the ceiling. That is fine. It even traps a little more air.

There is never any requiremenn for insulation to be "down" near the ceiling or "only" in between joists; it can be a foot higher too.

Use the insulation you already have, to your advantage, by raising it above the things you want not to freeze. Nothing is lost and much is gained. Doing so will not change you current "plan of action" either. Do both. Together they achieve more.


David
 

Statjunk

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Thanks David.

I will definetly do that.

In addition to tenting the insulation I'd like to wrap the pipe in insulation but I went to HD today and there were two options. I don't know which one I should go with and there is no R rating for either product.

My two options are:

Elastomeric $5.89 per 6 feet

Polyetholine $1.18 per 6 feet.

The elastomeric is soft and the polyetholine is firm.

Does anyone have a recommendation? Is the Polyetholine going to cut the mustard?

Thanks

Tom
 

Jadnashua

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If I remember, the R-factor was printed on the boxes, not on the individual pieces last time I looked. I'd spend the money and probably lay more batt insulation over it...probably cost less and provide more R-factor.
 

Statjunk

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statjunk said:
My two options are:

Elastomeric $5.89 per 6 feet

Polyetholine $1.18 per 6 feet.

The elastomeric is soft and the polyetholine is firm.

Well I finally found the R ratings for the two. No they were not on the boxes or on the tubes themselves.

The rating for 3/8" thick on each is:

Elastomeric R 2.8

Polyethylene R 2.7

Based on price and the minscule difference in R I'm going with the Polyethylene.

I hope that someone benefits from my search. I'm glad that I didn't end up deciding that if it costs more then it must be better.

I'm getting into this project tonight so wish me luck.

Thanks

Tom
 
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Construct30

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If you don't remove the insulation from under the pipe and put it over the pipe like the little tent, the heat from the house will not get through the insulation and the pipe will freeze. Putting insulation around the pipe and then putting the pipe in a "freezer" will do you no good. Only allowing the heat from the house to get to the pipe will keep it from freezing. If you run the pipe above the joist and pull the insulation from under the pipe then put pipe wrap around the PEX to keep it from sweating in the summer then put the fiberglass insulation over the pipe it is like running the pipe under the ceiling and boxing it in only without as much work and it doesn't look ugly. I have changed many frozen copper pipes that broke even though they were insulated above the attic insulation. PEX won't break when it freezes, but it will still freeze. You MUST allow the heat from the house below to get to the pipe to keep it warm. I still use foam pipe wrap to keep the pipe from sweating in the summer or it can stain the ceiling. Then put fiberglass over the pipe to create the nice warm winter tent.
 

Cwhyu2

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what is pex

After doing this for so long I have never heard of this product before.
Please direct to a site find more info.
 

GrumpyPlumber

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cwhyu2 said:
After doing this for so long I have never heard of this product before.
Please direct to a site find more info.

I'm gonna guess you're sole prop...mainly service, or retired.
PEX is Cross-linked Polyethylene tubing...flexible plastic pipe.. and yes...it's actually legal now. It's been slowly popping into mainstream plumbing for around ten years in the U.S., but in use in Europe for about 40 years. (I think it's around 40)
I'm not a big fan of it...thinking back to PB (polybutylene).
Type "ZURN" or "Wirsbo" into your web browser.
 

Cwhyu2

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I remember

I remember tearing this stuff out of a manufactured home once.
It was only 6 months old .Leaked all over.Replaced in copper .no problems
since.
 

Lee Polowczuk

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I have had to make limited runs...and have used Sharkbites to make connections... Pex to copper. I had to make a run from the basement..through a closet to the attic for a toilet.

at the termination, I used a 90 Sharkbite and connected it to copper where I had sweated in a valve..

i used appropriate tie downs, etc...

it had just enough flexibility where I needed it
 

Construct30

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I have been using copper for 15 years and started with the PEX about two years ago, mainly just to do repaires in manufactured homes, but if used and installed correctly it is a good product. I would have no problems putting it in my own home.

In some of the new homes it is very hard to get copper into the upstairs bathrooms. I think you should use the home run systems with a bloc and not put a bunch of t's and elbows in walls, but it is a good system. I liked cast iron pipe for drains, but plastic took over in that area, price seems to control everything in the housing industry. Maybe because the banks have more control over it than the people doing the work. I just wish they would all choose a way of installing it and use it. Too many systems with too many expensive tools. It does remove some of the DIY'ers and weekend plumbers. With copper, everyone with a $30 torch and a hacksaw calls themself a plumber.

mark
 

hj

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Pex

What you removed from a mobile home was probably polybutylene gray tubing, which is a different product altogether.

pb_pipe_shutoff.jpg
 
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