DIYing is a craft that can be learned!

[leejosepho]

This kind of discussion might never be fully completed, and here are a few more thoughts along the way:

A tradesman is a person who has a set of skills in construction. The purpose of the skills is to construct and market products which are acceptable to some target market which is predominantly defined by price.

A craftsman is a person for whom the exercise of the skills and the construction of the items are almost an end in themselves [such as when DIYing].

The tradesman (rightly) asks, "Will this satisfy the customer for the price they are paying?"

The craftsman asks (again rightly), "Is this the best way that I know or am able to do this?"

(Excerpted from: http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=13373 )

[Cass]

Unfortunately this statement

"The craftsman asks (again rightly), "Is this the best way that I know or am able to do this?"

All to many times that statement is echoed by home owners who, with limited knowledge, attempt to do work that ends in a cobbled mess that they think is great work..........then someone buys the house not knowing what is behind the wall.

[hj]

The tradesman (rightly) asks, "Will this satisfy the customer for the price they are paying?"

The craftsman asks (again rightly), "Is this the best way that I know or am able to do this?"

You may have them stated incorrectly.
The "handyman" asks, "will this satisfy the customer for the price they are paying?"

The professional, who is a craftsman by the way other than those who are in it just for the paycheck, asks, "Is this the best way to do it, period."

The average DIY'er is trying to save money and therefore may do it the fastest and easiest way, as testified to by the ones who refuse to accept advice from the professional and keep looking for a "second opinion" hoping to find someone who will bless his way of doing it.

[frenchie]

You forgot about the hack, who only asks, "can I fake my way through this, enough to get paid?"

[GrumpyPlumber]

I particularly like the job where a 2" shower drain was connected to the old 1-1/2" tub drain and the customer says "The other plumber did that".
I suggest they get him back and have him cut a 2" wye into the CI main - "Well...he threw it in as a freebie while he was here working on...would you mind finishing it as a throw in? Shouldn't take that long...."
Worse thing there that'll happen is a bathroom flood, and yes, they learned something.
Then there's the landlord who replaces his NG vent draft water heater with a powervented type, and puts it into the chimney along with the other water heaters and boiler.
He will likely learn something as well.
When I was a boy I used to love tinkering with electronics, I'd tear apart radio's and "rebuild" them to discover what made them tick.
Then there was the day I got home from school to see fire trucks outside my home...I'd apparently cross connected something on the transformer that caused it to slowly overheat, luckily someone heard the smoke alarms and called the fire dept.
To this day I don't dare touch anything over 24 volt.
DIY'ing as a craft is fine, as long as you know what you shouldn't be doing, and that knowledge is easy to misinterpret when you look at something as simple as a radio.
Water, drainage...proceed at your own risk (If you can drywall & paint you can likely undo potential damage...as long as the electrical isn't shorted in a wall/ceiling).
Gas fixtures...well...think about that radio.

[master plumber mark]

grumpy plumber wrote

When I was a boy I used to love tinkering with electronics, I'd tear apart radio's and "rebuild" them to disover what made them tick.
Then there was the day I got home from school to see fire trucks outside my home...I'd apparently cross connected something on the transformer that caused it to slowly overheat, luckily someone heard the smoke alarms and called the fire dept.
To this day I don't dare touch anything over 24 volt.
.[/quote]

Setting the house on fire is one of those
memories you never forget.......


In my opinion...
Tinkerers, and do it yourselfers is probably 90% of the reason
we need good fire-departments and emergency responce units
in every town across the country....for the ticking time bombs
people create and tinker with in their own homes.

Human error is usually greatley eliminated when someone
with a lisc. does the work... craftsmen, tradesmen or whatever you
want to call them......

and if you think you got a
"hack" in your home....ask them to show their lisc.

[CHH]

While you certainly have a point MPM, the average driver and average obese American contributes a little more than 10% to the emergency response calls. Heck, gang banger fignts and drive by shootings are probably 10% around here.

Hey, I gotta stick up for the DIYs!

[devans175]

The average DIY'er is trying to save money and therefore may do it the fastest and easiest way, as testified to by the ones who refuse to accept advice from the professional and keep looking for a "second opinion" hoping to find someone who will bless his way of doing it.[/QUOTE]

I suppose this is correct. The average DIY'er is trying to save money. But you should also consider that sometimes it's almost impossible to get a licenced contractor interested in showing up for a small job. I had a simple job that I needed done.. add and AC return... I called 10 different companies and none wanted the job... They didn't say it right out, but the writing was on the wall... it wasn't worth they're time, unless I let them... I'll just say "charge me an unreasonable price"....

I figured it out on my own... bought the supplies and did it myself for 25% of the price.... No experience... and a pretty nice job, if I may say so myself!!

Sorry... I just had to pipe in...

[Mort]

As I've gotten a little older (and perhaps, even a little wiser) I've really come to appreciate professional tradesmen/craftsmen. Getting a job done in less time than me DYIing and with the added bonus of getting it done right the first time has made me a believer. Painting, plumbing, carpentry, electrical, etc are all things I've tried over time. That I never ruined anything was probably dumb luck. Watching someone with skill and experience do those things helps me sleep better too ;)

Mort (who still mows the lawn and washes the car.....for now)

[Old Dog]

I just needed to add my 2c's as I sit here reading the threads(too sore to sleep,Showed a couple of my young guys the right way to replace termite eaten floor joists in 24" crawl space without causing more damage than we were fixing!)
A DIYER needs to figure out why they are doing the work as opposed to hiring a contractor.Is it just to save money, or is it the satisfaction that can come from doing a project and doing it well, maybe both.Where most people get in trouble is they assume any one can do what we do, that the years of experience count for nothing.They can watch someone for ten minutes and jump right in and do it just as well as a pro.
One of the things I see all too often is DIYER'S think they should be able to do it as fast as a pro can. Speed comes with training and "hands on" experience.
As I've gotten older I find myself more willing to help the younger guys in the trades and give advice to homeowners who ask for it.
I cringe sometimes when I hear the advice given out by people in the big box stores.I've jumped into those conversations numerous times mostly because of the downright dangerous advice that is given.It amazes me how people will question your advice because it is more difficult=the correct way as opposed to clerks easy=the wrong way of doing things.(I DON'T KNOW LADY,I'VE DONE THAT REPAIR ABOUT A 100 TIMES AND THE CLERK HERE WORKED AT A FAST FOOD OUTLET LAST WEEK,WHICH ONE OF US DO YOU THINK IS RIGHT?)
Now before all of the DIYER'S jump all over me and call me bad names,I'm not saying you should'nt try to do projects on your own.
Just realize what your limitations are. Do research on your own.Read up on products,tools,proper procedures,codes...
And please, if your going to ask advice of a professional,FOLLOW IT!
We wouldn't tell you to follow these 5 steps if it could be done in 2.There is a reason why we do what we do in a certain way.It's the correct way, the proper way, the safe way.You can get professional results too if you take your time and don't cut corners.
(Long reply,I KNOW,1:40 A.M. IN HAWAII,MAYBE i CAN GET SOME SLEEP NOW THAT i GOT OFF MY SOAPBOX!)

[D.Smith]

I just want to add this. I think DiYer has been or know of someone that been done wrong before and think they are better off doing it themself. Or they saw it done and thought it looked easy ie TV.

[devans175]

[QUOTE=Old Dog] A DIYER needs to figure out why they are doing the work as opposed to hiring a contractor.Is it just to save money, or is it the satisfaction that can come from doing a project and doing it well, maybe both. QUOTE]

I think Old Dog put it right. A lot of us DIYERs do it because we like the challenge. Some of us have jobs where we don't have a chance to get our hands dirty and actually build something that others can admire. Saving a little money is a bonus... when it happens... occasionally a project may cost more in the long run, but it's still fun to work it out and Do it Yourself.

I usaully look at a project and decide

1. Can I do it myself?
2. Should I do it myself?
3. Do I really want to do it myself?
3. If things go wrong, will my wife leave me? ;)

[CHH]

3. If things go wrong, will my wife leave me? ;)

Well it's a good question but it seems to me that the correct answer may be counter-intuitive. A "yes" might be a good thing or it might be a bad thing...:)

[GrumpyPlumber]

3. If things go wrong, will my wife leave me? ;)

No lie, I've seen it almost come to that.
I betcha Cass, RUGGED, MasterPlumber Mark, HJ, Markst and numerous other plumbers here could tell stories.
It usually starts with a "discrete" call from the wife..."I think my husband screwed something up...I don't wanna insult him but...."

[abikerboy]

There are certain things where diy'rs have to do out of basic neccessity. Take the guy, for instance, that feels lucky to pay his utilities, buy diapers for the baby, pay the hospital bill where that baby was just born a few months ago, and to have just a few bucks left over for frozen pizza and super cheap ground beef for dinner. This is where if you're smart, you'll spend the $25 for a permit, and have it inspected. As a homeowner, and I diy'r, I think this is something that should be regulated. This is where our inspectors come in handy. When it comes to stupid things, like soldering pipe together, let us learn ourselves. If we mess up, and ruin a nice finished basement full of fancy furniture, then thats our dumbness....BUT....when it comes to something that can kill, like plumbing a gas line into a water heater, or rewiring a service line, if we dont get a permit and have the inspection, and something goes wrong, the diy'r should face charges of negligence, even in his own home! I know my own limits, and from owning my own home, Ive learned that when there is something beyond what I can do myself, I can go to the mortgage company, and take out an equity loan...even if there is very little equity, the mortgage company does want me to keep my house in top shape, and so far, they've always found a way to make it work and to apply a short term, low interest loan to the mortgage for repairs. Take for example to diy'r stupidity, an electric water heater that I installed at my mom's house when I was only 16 years old! She had an electrician come in and wire it, and I had my first experience with sweating copper pipe. It looked like crap....probably 2 pounds of solder on each joint, and another pound or two on the dirt basement floor....but it held for almost 25 years...until just last year when another problem caused one joint to leak. At the time it was put in, I was young, and I didnt want to touch the electric, but was so proud of plumbing in that copper line. Lol!!! It saved her money that she didnt have back then, and when the time came to redo my work, I knew how to solder, and Ive been through classes on the electrical, so I managed to cut it all out, laughed like h**l at my work, and put it all back right this time!!!! If it had of failed back then, no harm to anyone. Just a flooded basement from my own stupidity, and a couple of hours with a sump pump, then would've had to figure out some way to call a plumber in anyway! As for myself being a diy'r now, I do it because I like to learn...I like the challenge, but at the same time, I do have enough contacts with people at every level that I can call up a good friend and say "hey, is this done right?"~and if it's not, Im usually shown how to do it the right way.

[Verdeboy]

I believe that the division of labor into a zillion discrete fields, each requiring a complex learning curve and government certification, is the worst thing that has ever beset humankind.

I long for the old days, where each person knew how to construct and maintain their own home, grow and cook their own food, make their own clothes, and so forth.

Most people are only adept at one thing--and that one thing is generally something unrelated to one's basic survival needs, like being a lawyer, salesman, or accountant.

Is this progress? I don't think so.

[leejosepho]

I believe that the division of labor into a zillion discrete fields, each requiring a complex learning curve and government certification, is the worst thing that has ever beset humankind.

That is essentially the industrial revolution, and you are absolutely correct. It took the head of house out of the house and turned gardens into lawns.

I long for the old days, where each person knew how to construct and maintain their own home, grow and cook their own food, make their own clothes, and so forth.

Today there are "intentional communities" where people are again doing things that way.

Most people are only adept at one thing--and that one thing is generally something unrelated to one's basic survival needs, like being a lawyer, salesman, or accountant.

Is this progress? I don't think so.

Correct again.

[Verdeboy]

Today there are "intentional communities" where people are again doing things that way.
Yes, and after I dropped out of the corporate world, I visited and lived in a dozen or more of them, ranging from farming communities to spiritual communities to alternative health communities, but never found one that exactly fit my needs. I tried to get a Taoist-based communbity going, but gave up after a few years.

How about you? Have you logged on to www.IC.org recently?

[molo]

The Industrial Revolution Has Helped And Harmed Us> We Have Learned To Optimize Certain Processes> But We Must Value The Process Of Thought That Created The Industrial Era>

When We Move Out Of The Chaotic Frenzy Of The Industiral Era< And Learn To Avoid Making People Into "specialized" Mechanical Gears< We Will Begin To Appreciate Parts Of The Era< For Now There Is A Love Hate Relationship>

I Wonder What People Were Saying During The Rennaisance When Michelangelo Had Plans For A Helicopter> Or What Folks Were Saying About The Wright Brothers> Two Great Examples Of Non Specialists

[GrumpyPlumber]

Most people are only adept at one thing--and that one thing is generally something unrelated to one's basic survival needs, like being a lawyer, salesman, or accountant.

Is this progress? I don't think so.

What about C++, Java, & PHP programmers, IT designers, computer engineers?
They're specialized.
You wouldn't be posting here without them.
You miss the old days?
Um ... whadaya doin' here?
Sorry to offend, but I couldn't ignore that point.

[Old Dog]

I long for the old days, where each person knew how to construct and maintain their own home, grow and cook their own food, make their own clothes, and so forth.

I'm with you on that...Used to be everyone had a workshop in the basement or garage,a garden in the back yard. people are cramming so much into their lives now that it's no wonder people are all so stressed out (wasn't all this new technology supposed to give us more free time not less?). When is the last time most people remember seeing a sunrise?Ask that question to 20 people and you would be lucky if 1 or 2 could even tell you.
Of course the powers that be like the fact men and women work so much(gotta generate those tax dollars!)_
Me,thats why I moved to the big island.As I write this I'm listening to the crickets and the coqui frogs under a night sky with a million stars visible.My fruit trees filling up with fruit,veggies getting bigger,my chickens busy making more baby chickens,this life ain't for everyone I guess...

[Verdeboy]

Me,thats why I moved to the big island.As I write this I'm listening to the crickets and the coqui frogs under a night sky with a million stars visible.My fruit trees filling up with fruit,veggies getting bigger,my chickens busy making more baby chickens,this life ain't for everyone I guess...

I'm getting jealous.:)

[Verdeboy]

What about C++, Java, & PHP programmers, IT designers, computer engineers?
They're specialized.
You wouldn't be posting here without them.
You miss the old days?
Um ... whadaya doin' here?
Sorry to offend, but I couldn't ignore that point.

...and I'm not growing my own food, building my own home, or making my own clothes either. Just musing, that's all.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Old dog....want a roomie?
You have a very valid point there...I spend alotta time sitting at my desk here.
When I was a kid it was the park, the beach or the playground.
Now kids sit at the tv watching "nic" or playing playstation...or in im's on the computer.

Tonight...I made plans with my 9 yr old...we're going out so he can learn to ride his bike...been buggin' him about this for weeks and weird thing is he seems like it's an imposition.
Like Dylan said "The times they are a changin'"

[GrumpyPlumber]

...and I'm not growing my own food, building my own home, or making my own clothes either. Just musing, that's all.


I hear ya...I'm going to visit a friend that moved from the city to a place thats the complete opposite in a few weeks, he's literally hundreds of miles from any city now.
He says he's glad he made the move, but he didn't realize how big the changes would be.
I wouldn't say this to him, but I think he thought the grass would be greener.
I'm like you...I dream what a simpler lifestyle would be like, but I know it's just dreamin'.

[Verdeboy]

I'm like you...I dream what a simpler lifestyle would be like, but I know it's just dreamin'.
Don't get me wrong. I've simplified my life 1000% since I left the crazy corporate world. I work about 20 hrs a week and spend the rest of the time making music, hiking in the mountains, and photographing rainbows and sunsets. It's not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than the "Dilbert-esque" life I was leading.

[leejosepho]

... farming communities to spiritual communities to alternative health communities, but never found one that exactly fit my needs ...

How about you? Have you logged on to www.IC.org recently?

No, not in a while, but I have spent some time looking around there. One proposed startup looked promising until "Dora" turned out to actually be "Theodora" ...

[leejosepho]

I Wonder ... What Folks Were Saying About The Wright Brothers ...

I have heard their father was Chancellor of some college, and he was planning to shut down the science department while believing everything that could ever be invented had already been invented ... and he then fired the head of that department who was trying to defend his own job by saying some people believed man might yet find a way to fly!

[Old Dog]

I'm like you...I dream what a simpler lifestyle would be like, but I know it's just dreamin'.

When I lived in Las Vegas,I thought so too.I would visit my wife's family in Hawaii,get excited about the lifestyle but then get caught back up in work and everything else after our vacation.What got me off my a** to do something was when I almost got killed in an accident in Vegas.A "visitor" from across the border,drunk and in a stolen work van plowed into the back of me at a stoplight.Totaled my work truck,fractured my jaw in 3 places,lost 20 teeth.It made me realize that you should'nt wait.I kept at it until we were able to make it work.IT's funny,I find I have alot more time to do what makes me happy when I keep myself away from the tv.Don't have cable or satellite.I rent or buy movies to watch.Do alot of research on the internet.Enjoy reading and adding my 2c's on sites like this one.
I guess what I'm trying to say... just figure out what really makes you happy and go for it.If an old f**t like me can do it anyone can.

[Verdeboy]

No, not in a while, but I have spent some time looking around there. One proposed startup looked promising until "Dora" turned out to actually be "Theodora" ...

That story would make more sense if you were talking about a blind date you went on. I guess there's probably more to the story. What kind of community were you looking to start and have you visited others?

[master plumber mark]

If you are alone , you can just about do anything you
want and accept the consequences of your actions..
good or bad..


If you are marrried, then usually that simple life style
was thrown out the window a long time ago..because
most females I know dont cotton too well to living in
"hooterville" Remember the tv show Green Acres??.



Heck ,

I fondly dream of the days back when I could look down
and see my privates, without my gut hanging in the way....

those were the days..

[leejosepho]

That story would make more sense if you were talking about a blind date you went on. I guess there's probably more to the story.

The deal there ended up being that the woman who owned the property decided to end our discussions about qualifications for membership and anything else when I said "Dora" would have to dress like his real self while in public view on community property in order for me to be involved.

What kind of community were you looking to start and have you visited others?

No, I have not, and the kind I would like would be relatively simple in structure, hetero******, monogamous and at least partly agrarian.

[Don Gwinn]

That story about the Wright dad sounds apocryphal, but it's true that there were people who seriously proposed shutting down the patent offices in England in the late 19th century on the grounds that there would be no more useful inventions forthcoming . . . ever.
:eek:

[GrumpyPlumber]

"Next on Oprah...the apocryphal father and how it relates to monogamous agrarian culture"

Sorry, couldn't resist...thread seems to have randomly drifted....I mean really drifted.

[Verdeboy]

No, I have not, and the kind I would like would be relatively simple in structure, hetero******, monogamous and at least partly agrarian.

If you check out that website, you'll find dozens of Christian-based communities that will probably meet your requirements.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I'm scared, scared like a chinese toy salesman found at walmart buying mittens for my hands....

after reading this

[leejosepho]

...thread seems to have randomly drifted....

No, not at all. DIYing is a craft that both can and should be learned, or re-learned, if you will, and there is even an intentional community somewhere in Texas that teaches everything a man, family or group of people need to know to live as we all did for thousands of years.

[GrumpyPlumber]

No, not at all. DIYing is a craft that both can and should be learned, or re-learned, if you will, and there is even an intentional community somewhere in Texas that teaches everything a man, family or group of people need to know to live as we all did for thousands of years.

OK...good point.
Isn't that Amish?

[leejosepho]

OK...good point.
Isn't that Amish?

Yes, at least similar are far as food, clothing, shelter and "community" or fellowship are concerned ... kind of like all DIYing together.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Yes, at least similar are far as food, clothing, shelter and "community" or fellowship are concerned ... kind of like all DIYing together.

I just can't imagine how they get by without cable, air conditiong, and MOST of all...drive-throughs.
Thats inhumane!

[seaneys]

I grew up working on and around farms. Most farmers can do a wide variety of tasks. This includes constructing houses, rebuilding engines, birthing animals, etc. I suspect that non-livestock farmers may tend to do more themselves during their 'dead time' between seasons.

I'm completely convinced that there isn't much that an avid diy'er can not do. It just takes a lot of time and dedication. You have to be willing to learn from a variety of sources (books, inspectors, professionals, etc). The learning portion of the projects typically take much more time then the doing portion of the project.

I've also found as a diy'er, I tend to overdesign my work. I use 12 gauge stranded for all electrical runs (even if I use a 15 Amp breaker), use gfci's everyplace, etc. I live in a very affluent area; the inspectors actually seem to enjoy seeing a homeowner do the work.

There are a few suburbs in the Chicago area that do not allow homeowners to do their own work. There certainly does not seem to be a measurable market price differential (buyers are not paying a premium) for living in these suburbs. I strongly suspect there is also not a statistically significant difference in fire safety related indicators. Has anyone actually seen any hard data?

Steve

[frenchie]

From what I've seen in my time, there won't a noticeable difference.

The difference will be between either of those neighbourhoods, and the nearest slum. It's the crackhead/drunk/junkie "handyman" slumlords hire, that you have to worry about.


Further thoughts...

I've worked for/with lots of competent DIYers; it's not always "rescue me, I'm in over my head", it's often "I don't feel like having to learn how to plaster".

My earlier comment, about how it doesn't save you any money, but offers unparalleled satisfaction, is largely based on conversations I've had with those DIYers. There's a tremendous satisfaction in being able to say "I did it myself".

It's the ones doing it to try to save money, that I've had to rescue.