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View Full Version : Why are 4" IC remodel housings so hard to find?



Boo
07-12-2007, 12:45 PM
I have been searching high and low for 4" IC remodel housings (line voltage, please) but am only finding either non-IC which won't work with my blown insulation in the attic or IC new construction, which won't work 'cause I can't get access unless I want to re-do the drywall in the ceiling. We have enough of that to do elsewhere!!

I'd asked this question P.T. (pre-Tedesco!) and someone had responded but, of course, it was deleted.

I don't want to go larger since I already have the perfect 4" trim. Anyone know why they're so hard to find...or why they're not made if that's the case? :confused:

jadnashua
07-12-2007, 12:57 PM
This is only a guess; it may be that the relative depth of the bulb verses the diameter and the volume required for the can and electrtical connection is too big to fit through the hole on a smaller fixture. The box attached often remains the same size regardless of the size of the opening.

Boo
07-12-2007, 01:14 PM
Hmmmm...might be. In my desperation, I found something online that is low voltage and described as:

4" Low Voltage "SHALLOW" AT Rated Remodel Housing 120volts with Electronic Transformer. 35watt max use a FMW or any 35watt MR-16 12volt bulb

But it doesn't say if it can come in contact with combustible materials. Not sure what "AT" means. I did install some non-IC 3" cans in our closet and I built a 4" box completely around to keep the insulation away, but what a pain that was! Also, I still get a bit freaked out when my husband forgets to turn off the lights since halogens burn so hot!

I'm determined to use the very cool trims I bought (before realizing how hard it would be to find the housings...should have bought them in the reverse).

frenchie
07-12-2007, 02:52 PM
?

I found three or four, just on the first page:

http://www.google.com/products?q=4%22+IC+line&hl=en&um=1&sa=X&oi=froogle&ct=title

Sucks that "IC" also pulls up "non-IC", so the results are all mixed together, but... there's more than a few there.



"AT" means airtight.

jadnashua
07-12-2007, 03:22 PM
None of the IC rated housings are remodel versions...you'd have to tear up the ceiling. To make the housing IC, you have to provide a big enough air gap to help prevent too much of a heat buildup for the wiring and housing...you'd never get it to fit through a 4" hole. I think you'll find that to be true for any housing size...if you need IC rated, you'll not be able to do it as a remodel by just drilling a nice round hole; you'll have to remove some ceiling. If you can locate the joists and make a neat cut, it shouldn't be too tough to patch things back up.

jimbo
07-12-2007, 04:26 PM
AT stands for air tight. You need it to say IC.

Alectrician
07-12-2007, 06:18 PM
Ah...the quest for 4" IC cans.

If the insulation is blown in, you can just move it away from the can.. If you are worried about future blown in you can fashion a barrier out for some tight mesh wire. It is a royal PAIN but can be done.

geniescience
07-13-2007, 07:58 AM
... "IC" also pulls up "non-IC", so the results are all mixed together.... add a negative like this : 4 ic line -non-IC

Then, the search engine removes the "non-IC" from the results. Useful when the one term you don't want has a million examples, and the one term you DO want produces only a few examples.


4 ic line -non-IC
has IC but not the non-IC in its results

4 ic line
has both in its results


David

frenchie
07-13-2007, 09:36 AM
None of the IC rated housings are remodel versions...you'd have to tear up the ceiling.

Doh! I knew I was missing something...


I found some 5": http://www.pegasusassociates.com/products/RecessedLighting/5InchLineVoltageHousings.html
but no 4.

Boo
07-13-2007, 10:37 AM
Thanks everyone for the comments and investigative work! I have to face reality that the combo I'm searching for just won't work unless I want to re-drywall. The area is only about the size of one standard sheet of drywall, but what sucks is that we just had the "popcorn" scraped from the ceilings and were pleased that all of the old sheetrock was in great condition.

At least I know now why there are only 5" and larger housings for remodel.

I might just go with the 5" that frenchie found and just bite the bullet and purchase new trim. It sure is difficult to accept defeat!

:D

jadnashua
07-13-2007, 11:45 AM
There are 4" remodel ones, but I've not seen remodel AND IC ones.

frenchie
07-13-2007, 12:50 PM
It's also not a very big deal to open the drywall, put the lights in, then close it up again... especially if the whole area's roughly a sheet... the only taping would be in the corners?

jadnashua
07-13-2007, 05:33 PM
Most attics this time of year are something to be avoided! Yeah, I saw that, which is why there is blown in insulation there. I've installed installed new construction boxes in old work, but you're right, it has to be done from above or take out the drywall.

tonykarns
07-14-2007, 05:07 AM
I have been using 4" tc remodeling canisters for 2 years now in areas with blown in insulation and no access to the attic. My procedure is to:
1. Cut the 4 inch hole in the ceiling making sure I am centered between both rafters. Must have 16" clearance between back side of drywall ceiling and roof boards. Move insulation away from hole by hand as far as I can.

2. Cut a piece of wire mesh with 1/8" square holes 27" long by 12" high.

3. Roll the wire mesh to 4" diameter and insert in hole with wiring running
through the center of it and out of the ceiling.

4. Let the mesh expand to about a 11" diameter and with a needle nose pliers
and small clips, clip the mesh together so as to keep the ends together.

5. I have now created the 3" dia air space required for the remodeling canister.

The entire process takes about 20 minutes per light to install from start to finish if you have your mesh pieces cut ahead of time and handy. I usually keep a bundle of them in the truck. Most of my kits use par 20 type bulbs and I take out the two screws keeping the bulb holder in place so I can drop the bulb down flush with the trim face instead of purchasing the whip they try to sell you to lower the bulb. All electrical inspections in Wisconsin have been approved using the above method. If insulation is going to be blown in at a later date I install fireproof wool insulation at the top of the mesh to prevent any other insulation from getting blown into the top of the mesh container I have made.

tonysprofessionalremodeling.com

jadnashua
07-14-2007, 01:16 PM
Personally, I'd rather tear out the drywall, and use an AT IC fixture. then, you could put insulation over it. Having an uninsulated section of ceiling in a house today just seems like a big energy waste. Go the extra mile, I think you'll be happier in the long term. The potential for condensation in the winter and mildew is there if there is no insulation around the fixture and you can't do that unless it is an IC rated one. The AT helps, too.

WarriorWithWood
07-14-2007, 03:39 PM
What happened to my post? Did someone delete it? Was it my avatar? Was it something I said?

WarriorWithWood
07-14-2007, 03:50 PM
Is Joe lurking around?:D

Cass
07-14-2007, 03:55 PM
What post?

WarriorWithWood
07-14-2007, 04:06 PM
What post?

I posted asking if boo could get into the attic and install new construction from the topside, so he /she wouldn't have to cut up the drywall. That's why jadnashua posted
Most attics this time of year are something to be avoided! Yeah, I saw that, which is why there is blown in insulation there. I've installed installed new construction boxes in old work, but you're right, it has to be done from above or take out the drywall.

There was more in the post also but now I'm curious why it was deleted just so I won't repeat the mistake.

Cookie
07-14-2007, 06:47 PM
I didn't edit or delete your post. But, I would bet someone else did because of the nature of your avatar. I only got jealous, lol. ;)

WarriorWithWood
07-14-2007, 07:46 PM
Cookie,

I would have happily changed it if someone said something. My bad, Sorry if I offended anyone.:confused:

Cookie
07-14-2007, 08:34 PM
I see less on people at church. :rolleyes: Definitely at the malls. (just for the record there is no way they were the real Mccoy's, lol) :cool:

Try another avatar, something more benign like a sword maybe for warrior. You can have something violent. lol.

frenchie
07-15-2007, 09:34 AM
What avatar? I don't see an avatar for Dennis...

WarriorWithWood
07-15-2007, 03:39 PM
What avatar? I don't see an avatar for Dennis...
I took it off Frenchie, I kinda figured that was the problem. I would show it to you but...:rolleyes:

frenchie
07-15-2007, 04:57 PM
From Cookie's comment's, I can make an educated guess... something Barry (at the other place) might have posted a few times? LOL...

WarriorWithWood
07-15-2007, 05:26 PM
From Cookie's comment's, I can make an educated guess... something Barry (at the other place) might have posted a few times? LOL...

How'd ya guess? LOL

frenchie
07-15-2007, 06:09 PM
One of the guys, on a sailing forum I hang at, has the same pic as his avatar; but in the animated gif version. I thought it a funny coincidence when Barry used it... if it's actually the same pic... I have to say they look pretty real in the animated version.

WarriorWithWood
07-15-2007, 07:04 PM
boing....boing....boing Yeah I have that one too :D

Boo
07-16-2007, 02:33 PM
I posted asking if boo could get into the attic and install new construction from the topside, so he /she wouldn't have to cut up the drywall. That's why jadnashua posted


There was more in the post also but now I'm curious why it was deleted just so I won't repeat the mistake.

Actually, I do have attic access but...I forgot to mention why I can't get to it. We had our furnace moved to the attic to free up space inside our small house and, wouldn't ya know, they built the platform that holds the unit right smack over the area where I want to put the 4" cans. Even if I could move the insulation away from the cans, I still have some plywood directly over where they'll be. All of the other lights, ceiling boxes for fans, etc. have all been securely attached with bars. I'm not a fan of remodel housings anyway since they only sit on top of the drywall with 3 whimpy clips.

When it comes to electrical, in my short DIY career, I've learned that complicating things only leads to trouble...so I should probably take the path of least "resistance" (no pun intended!!).

WarriorWithWood
07-16-2007, 02:51 PM
Boo,
Sounds like you have 2 options,
1) 5" old work
2) cut the drywall for 4" new work

I would use the 5" just because of the blown in insulation mess.

Good Luck