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I have an AO Smith FPS-75 series 230. This is a gas-fired 75 gal heater with spark ignition and induced draft, about 15 years old.
The problem is that it occasionally (once every few days)fails to ignite. If I reset the power, it starts up and works normally for a few days.
I can't troubleshoot it because once I turn it off and back on everything is normal. If I understand it correctly, it tries to ignite 3 times before it locks out permanently.
I had the same problem last year and found the spark gap to be too large. Closing it solved the problem. This time the spark gap is fine.
Any suggestions?
dg
leejosepho
07-12-2007, 05:55 AM
Maybe a weak coil or capacitor or something, resulting in a weak spark?
Yes, that's one of the possibilities.
What I'm asking the seasoned pros is this: if a customer had this complaint, how would you go about troubleshooting it? The AO Smith tech manual procedure does not work (obviously) unless something is failed permanently.
Replacing parts at random until it works better is not an option.
dx
jimbo
07-12-2007, 05:18 PM
Well, as my auto mechanic is fond of reminding me, problems which do not manifest themselves at time of service...cannot be guaranteed to be fixed.
You mentioned this is an induced draft....the first thing I might do is check and probably replace the draft pressure switch.
dubldare
07-12-2007, 05:20 PM
Off the top of my head, here goes...
Sequence of normal operation will be something like this.
A)thermostat closes, sending 120v to draft fan; fan starts
B)draft proving switch closes, sending 24v to ignition control
C)ignitor begins to spark
D)gas valve opens
E)~5 seconds for flame stabilization
F)flame rectification looks for microvolt signal from flame rod
G)unit runs until thermostat opens
Some units with pilots are slightly different:
A)thermostat closes, sending 120v to draft fan; fan starts
B)draft proving switch closes, sending 24v to ignition control
C)ignitor begins to spark
D)pilot valve opens
E)~5 seconds for flame stabilization
F)flame rectification looks for microvolt signal from flame rod
G)ignition control recieves flame rod signal, opens main burner valve
H)unit runs until thermostat opens
Cheapest thing to do first is clean the flame rod and ensure the pilot assy ground is intact and not corroded. The ground is very important as the flame rectification signal/voltage is actually the electrical difference between the pilot housing and the flame. Flame rod systems are nothing like a thermocouple or powerpile, as the later generate voltage, the flame rod is a voltage sensor. Any slight ash or corrosion will insulate it. To clean a flame rod, sanding with a crisp dollar bill is recommended, although I have used a wire brush everso carefully. Do not use sandpaper or sandcloth as any residual adhesive or sand can insulate the rod when heated.
Symptoms of a dirty flame rod would be...ignition of pilot and failure within ~5 seconds.
A restricted pilot burner orfice and poor gas supply can also be a possibility. Looking at the pilot and how it changes when the burner is on is what to look for here. If the pilot dwindles down to next to nothing when the burner is running clean/replace it.
If the burner runs a bit and then fails, chances are the inducer motor may be suspect. Motor can loose a bit of rpm performance as they age. Hot air is denser than cold, and when combined with a weak motor, burners can fail on the draft proving switch opening. A usual symptom of this is lack of capacity of hot water/lukewarm and frequent, short cycles of heater.
Thermostat... well the draft fan would never start.
Coil/s in gas valve are a possiblity for failing, although more remote of a problem.
Weak spark, replace ignition control/spark wire. You should have a pretty good gap that the spark covers. Also, if spark color is yellow/orange its weak. You want to see a white and a bit of blue. Sparking sound that is irregular in rhythm usually indicates a faulty wire.
Check all spade connectors. Make sure they are tight and mating surfaces are not corroded.
Also check venting for any backpitch/sags or blockage.
Good luck. Now you see why most guys just sell 'em a new one.
I have an AO Smith FPS-75 series 230. This is a gas-fired 75 gal heater with spark ignition and induced draft, about 15 years old.
The problem is that it occasionally (once every few days)fails to ignite. If I reset the power, it starts up and works normally for a few days.
I can't troubleshoot it because once I turn it off and back on everything is normal. If I understand it correctly, it tries to ignite 3 times before it locks out permanently.
I had the same problem last year and found the spark gap to be too large. Closing it solved the problem. This time the spark gap is fine.
Any suggestions?
dg
I would strongly consider replacing a 15 year old A.O. Smith.
I wouldn't be surprised if you can't find replacement parts.
GrumpyPlumber
07-12-2007, 05:59 PM
I would strongly consider replacing a 15 year old A.O. Smith.
I wouldn't be surprised if you can't find replacement parts.
And heres the sad irony....you'r next A.O.Smith won't outlive that.
And heres the sad irony....you'r next A.O.Smith won't outlive that.
You got that right !!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks guys, but a new heater is not gonna happen. And yes, all replacement parts are available.
Dubldare, thanks for taking the time and effort. Your sequence of operation is same as shown in their service manual.
There is no flame rod, so that simplifies things. It's a simple ionization detector. When it's done sparking, it sends a voltage to the spark electrodes and measures the current. If the space is ionized (flame), the current is much higher then if there is no flame.
The pilot flame is nice shape/color and stays nice. Main burner flame is perfect. Burner runs perfectly until shutting off (reaching temp). Heater has great recovery and does not short cycle. With the thermostat at 130F I can run 3 showers forever while doing laundry.
Spark gap is specified at 0.090-0.150 and it's right around 0.100. I can't see the spark, but sounds fine. I'll have to get a dentist mirror or something to get a visual. Excellent idea. Thanks.
He he he, I do see why most people would sell'em a new one. I couldn't afford me if I had to pay myself for all this troubleshooting either :)
dx
dubldare
07-13-2007, 08:54 AM
There is no flame rod, so that simplifies things. It's a simple ionization detector. When it's done sparking, it sends a voltage to the spark electrodes and measures the current. If the space is ionized (flame), the current is much higher then if there is no flame.
My bad, it's a microamp signal we're looking for here. The ignitor is also the flame rod in your case. A little googling on 'Flame rectification' can probably help you better than I have.
Yes. Unfortunately I can't check the flame rectification current. I do have a microamp meter but I'm not about to stick it in a circuit that's going to see several kilovolts when it fires :) I'll take a close visual look at the spark tonight.
dx
jimbo
07-14-2007, 07:36 AM
I reiterate to investigate the pressure switch.
Maybe you will be lucky and it will start leaking tomorrow so the problem will be solved. Or at least not just after you spend a couple of hundred dollars trying to fix a ghost problem.
hj,
Did you have a bad week bud, or are you just an unhappy fellow? You remind me of Eeyore.
Jimbo,
I did look at the pressure switch. Works fine and clean contacts. I ordered a new one anyway, they're cheap enough. Thanks.
dx
GrumpyPlumber
07-14-2007, 08:14 PM
hj,
Did you have a bad week bud, or are you just an unhappy fellow? You remind me of Eeyore.
15 years old.
a Mustang you restore.
A yacht sure.
a 15 year old water heater you xcome home one day wondering why you didn't get a new one 6 months ago when the basement is flooded.
He offers you the best advice I've seen on this thread...you insult him.
Maybe you should just request a refund.
leejosepho
07-15-2007, 03:24 AM
He offers you the best advice I've seen on this thread...
Maybe you will be lucky and it will start leaking tomorrow ...
Did I miss something?
master plumber mark
07-15-2007, 07:03 AM
15 years old.
a Mustang you restore.
A yacht sure.
a 15 year old water heater you xcome home one day wondering why you didn't get a new one 6 months ago when the basement is flooded.
He offers you the best advice I've seen on this thread...you insult him.
Maybe you should just request a refund.
This man is having a fight wth the water heater and he wants to win.........man vs 15 yr old heater......
its a guy thing....
so logic and common sense does not come into play here....
I hear it every day, why wont you come out (for free)
and look at the leak on my 15 year old water heater....
how do you claim you jsut KNOW I need a new one...
then they call someone else and pay through the nose for a diagnostic evaluation...($125)
and then cry like babies when they hear the same conclusion they got from me...
and the other fellow is 400 bucks higher too...
some call me back, and I install anew one for them
and some have too much pride to admit I was
telling them the straight truth over the phone......
I had one fellow that actually had to burn the hair off both
hands and fore-arms fooling with a Smith 92 power vent heater
before I got to change it out...
but on the bright side ---I am sure he will get a good education on the
workings of a defunct model Smith Power vent heater..
vtlandlord
07-15-2007, 07:25 AM
I got a gas fired draft induced unit from sears. Had a similar problem except this doesn't have a spark to light the gas but what appears to be a glow rod. It ran fine for about two years and then started having the same problem. (Intermittent and all.) I called the 800 number and they said to try using a light abrasive like a fine steel wool to clean off the temperature sensor. I thought they were nuts becuase it looked fine to me. What the heck, I'll clean it!! I said. 6 months later not one problem.
Dunbar Plumbing
07-15-2007, 09:10 AM
so I just farm out any calls relating to PowerVents. I'm not going to put $1000's of dollars of inventory on the truck taking up space for 50 calls a year.
I fear the repair in the cost of $100's, followed by the tank eventually leaking which in turn makes the customer look at me like I'm the bad guy "even though" I tried to convince them to replace, not repair.
I send these calls to someone who is the authorized rep for the 3 mfgs. of heaters and his truck is loaded down with everything he needs. That's all he does day in and day out.
Customer satisfaction is top notch after he's been there and the referral chain links back to my recommendation.
GrumpyPlumber
07-15-2007, 10:57 AM
..... I fear the repair in the cost of $100's, followed by the tank eventually leaking which in turn makes the customer look at me like I'm the bad guy "even though" I tried to convince them to replace, not repair. .....
Thats exactly what I'm saying.
It's 15 years old, likey had a ten yr warranty at best.
Why put hour after hour into it, pay out for parts and come home 6 months later to a basement flood?
Guys,
I understand the age issues. I didn't need help with that. If/when it fails and leaks, it will be no different than if it worked perfectly up to that point. As I already said, I wouldn't fix it if I had to pay someone else to do it.
This thread is (or at least was) about diagnosing an intermittent problem. I simply want to diagnose it and hopefully correct the problem and learn something.
VTLANDLORD, that's one of the things I did several days ago when I started this thread. I took some fine steel wool and emery board nail files and cleaned up the spark electrodes. They weren't heavily corroded or gunked up, but I figured there may have been just enough oxidation to throw off the microamp detector once in a while. So far it hasn't stopped working. Time will tell.
dg
GrumpyPlumber
07-15-2007, 12:15 PM
This man is having a fight wth the water heater and he wants to win.........man vs 15 yr old heater......
its a guy thing....
so logic and common sense does not come into play here....
Now, if you could just explain that to my sweety regarding my basement store of 50 gazzilion fittings and outdated tools, I'd be all set.
Problem solved.
It has now gone 8 days without hanging up. Previously had to reset it once every 3 days on average.
The only thing I have done (other than testing various components) was to clean/polish the spark electrodes, one of which is the fan-shaped end of the pilot pipe.
They weren't corroded, but apparently had just enough oxidation to (once in a while) throw off the microamp reading used by the control box to decide if there is flame.
Note to self: clean spark electrodes every 15 years or so :)
Thanks to all who helped.
dx
master plumber mark
07-19-2007, 09:14 PM
Congrads to you dx.....
you have won the battle....the thrill of victory.
of man vs water heater ......for now.
but wait untill you have your family
staying over night at your house next X-mas morning......
and that 15 year old heater takes out its just revenge on you
then feel the sting and agony of bitter defeat......
mmmuuuuuwwwwhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Aaah, yes, about age...
Replacing a device based on age is a poor substitute for the real McCoy, replacing based ON CONDITION.
If you own one of these: http://www.ridgid.com/Tools/SeeSnake-micro
you can inspect the heater tank for corrosion quite easily. The rest of the heater components are even easier to inspect.
The family does stay overnight once in a while, when they have a long power outage at their house. So we have collected quite a few credits and we're loking for a good excuse to stay at their house for a while :)
dx
master plumber mark
07-20-2007, 04:41 AM
thats certainly the tool you need to keep an
eye on that 15 yr old water heater.....
.I am sure its only a few hundred dollars
now all you got to do is make a inlet on the hot side
of the water heater and then snake it down into
the heater.......looking at all the inner welds......
then somehow you got to burrow through any lime
and sediment that has collected on the bottom over
the last 15 years and inspect the seams for micro-cracks.......
this could be the next new money maker for plumbers,
just Like installing Tankless water heaters
space-schuttle technology has saved the day again......
then somehow you got to burrow through any lime
and sediment that has collected on the bottom over
the last 15 years
Lime? What lime? The manufacturer recommends de-liming every six months or so:
http://www.hotwater.com/lit/training/4800r9.pdf
You DO de-lime your tank religiously every 6 months, don't you? :)
dg
master plumber mark
07-20-2007, 02:29 PM
I bet you get a good warm colonic every 3 months too....
it feels real good , dont it??
the average person might drain a little water off the
heater every so often, but that is about as far as I
can honestly say I have seen anyone ever wanting to mess with one..
to really de-lime one it involves draining the heater,
then pouring a special vinegar type solution into the tank ---5 gallons worth
and letting it sit for an hour or two, then draining that out and
rinseing the tank .......
that is waaay too labor intensive for the average home-owner to do...
I have never done it for anyone, because it would cost them too much
to fool with one .......and you run the risk of starting a leak by
dissolving some sediment that had plugged up a crack in the tank.
....
usually when I take them out sometimes they are over
knee deep in sediment and they weigh a ton
If you really do de-lime your water heater, then
you are one in about a million.
GrumpyPlumber
07-20-2007, 07:40 PM
I have no question DX will come straight here to let us know when the heater dies.
If you really do de-lime your water heater, then
you are one in about a million.
Mark, I think you missed the :) at the end of my post. No, I don't de-lime. One in a million? Not even. With 300M people in this country, that would be 300 people de-liming. No way!
I was, however, very amused at the manufacturer's recommendation to de-lime every 6 months.
dx
Edit: But I do something few people do: I always have a hot water filter after the tank. I've had in the past heaters that occasionally let through small chunks of sediment and other crud. After taking apart a couple faucets to get out the chunks lodged in, I learned it's cheap insurance. If you get the flushable ones with the clear glass bowl, you'd be surprised at the amount of crud that comes out of the tank.
Well, it's almost a year and a half later and I'm happy to report that the heater is still working perfectly with no more maintenance than draining a few gallons every month or so when I remember. As a matter of fact I got a new anode rod to put in this weekend. My present to the heater for making it past 17 years old.
leejosepho
11-22-2008, 05:47 AM
... draining a few gallons every month or so when I remember ...
Ah. Thank you for the reminder. I have not done mine in a while!