View Full Version : Plumbing hasn't been used in years
southernnaturelover
07-08-2007, 05:38 PM
I am going to be buying a house from a family member soon and have a few worries about it. For starters, it hasn't been occupied since 2001, and even then it was a rental. Second, the house is on a slab and has cement block outer walls. It was built in the 50's so I'm assuming the drain pipes are all cast iron. There are no large trees with roots near the house, but the brush is shoulder high around it(it's in a rural area). I'm hoping to renovate the house and turn it into rental property some day. Will it damage the plumbing and septic system if it hasn't been used in six years? I'm getting the house cheap, but I still hope I'm not in over my head. I assume I can go through the attic with new supply plumbing, but the drainage is my biggest worry.
I would have a plumber come out and get the plumbing system up and running. There are probably freeze breakes and a host of other problems. If it is on a septic system have it pumped and the tank inspected at the same time.
Do you know if the leach field has ever been replaced?
leejosepho
07-08-2007, 07:40 PM
Will it damage the ... septic system if it hasn't been used in six years?
Dormancy is a good thing for a leach field, but I would still do as Cass has suggested and have everything checked.
southernnaturelover
07-08-2007, 08:21 PM
I dont think the field lines have been replaced. If so, it would have been in the 70's or 80's. Freezing isn't usually a concern here since I'm near the gulf coast (it rarely gets under 25 degrees). My main concern was with the pipes being dry so long.
There is actually two septic systems on the property. There used to be a mobile home behind the house, but it was moved out in the early 90's so it's probably even worse.
If there is no or minimal chance of freezing then most likely, if the copper hasen't been ripped out of it, you will have minimal problems.
Leach fields will last 30-50 years on average but the main thing that determines the life is how often the tank is pumped. Solids going iito the leach field is what ruins the field.
got_nailed
07-09-2007, 05:44 AM
I would put the leaching field on the bottom of the list of stuff to think about. It is for the good that it has sat unused for so long. I have problems with the leaching field form not pumping the tank when needed then letting them sit for 6 to 8 months if they can dry out they will be as good as new.
If you don’t have a trees around the field you should be good to go.
southernnaturelover
07-09-2007, 07:14 AM
This makes me feel better about the septic system. Unfortunately the water pipes are not copper, I believe they are galvanized. I'm planning on having to replace them as they will probably be rusty.
If the house has been sitting that long without the water being on and being used I have seen where there is so much rust in a galvanized line that the line plugs when the water is turned on. I would suggest that you turn the water on at the street very very slowly say over a period of 1/2 an hour or so. This may allow the rust to find its way out without clogging the line. If the line is 3/4" it will be less likely to clog. Don't be surprised if it comes out a very dark brown almost black.
leejosepho
07-09-2007, 01:25 PM
I would suggest that you turn the water on at the street very very slowly say over a period of 1/2 an hour or so ...
... and have all faucets both inside and out completely open with all aerators removed beforehand. Not only will that help while flushing the lines, but it could also reduce the flow at any leak until you begin closing faucets one at a time while listening and looking for any problem.
GrumpyPlumber
07-09-2007, 06:50 PM
bike pump, test gauge.
Avoid possible water damage, if you prefer to.
Get a schrader fitting (like the fill inlet on a car/bike tire)...put together a tee with a test gauge, schrader fitting and a hose connection (guy at hardware store can guide you)...connect it to an outside hose spigot and open it then pump the system up with a bike pump as high as you can get it (a compressor & high pressure gauge-100psi or better would be preferential, but I'll guess you don't have one handy)
Let the gauge sit for a few hours with all fixtures/faucets off.
If it doesn't hold, make sure there are no leaks on the gauge set-up or hose connection (you can use dishwashing liquid and water...wet it down and look for bubbles).
IF it doesn't hold, you'll then need a compressor to pressurize it high enough to listen for hissing....eventually if there are any leaks you'd need a plumber anyway, he'd do all this.
southernnaturelover
07-09-2007, 06:50 PM
Thanks guys
southernnaturelover
07-09-2007, 06:54 PM
I do have a compressor. I'll have to experiment with that.
bike pump, test gauge.
Avoid possible water damage, if you prefer to.
Get a schrader fitting (like the fill inlet on a car/bike tire)...put together a tee with a test gauge, schrader fitting and a hose connection (guy at hardware store can guide you)...connect it to an outside hose spigot and open it then pump the system up with a bike pump as high as you can get it (a compressor & high pressure gauge-100psi or better would be preferential, but I'll guess you don't have one handy)
Let the gauge sit for a few hours with all fixtures/faucets off.
If it doesn't hold, make sure there are no leaks on the gauge set-up or hose connection (you can use dishwashing liquid and water...wet it down and look for bubbles).
IF it doesn't hold, you'll then need a compressor to pressurize it high enough to listen for hissing....eventually if there are any leaks you'd need a plumber anyway, he'd do all this.
I wouldnt do that. You may have low enough pressure for the pipe to hold but 100# may burst it. Then you will have to replace the line coming in from the street.
... and have all faucets both inside and out completely open with all aerators removed beforehand. Not only will that help while flushing the lines, but it could also reduce the flow at any leak until you begin closing faucets one at a time while listening and looking for any problem.
No do not open all the faucets only an outside hose bib. The rust could be thick enough to clogg the faucets, ask me how i know.
GrumpyPlumber
07-09-2007, 07:52 PM
I wouldnt do that. You may have low enough pressure for the pipe to hold but 100# may burst it. Then you will have to replace the line coming in from the street.
true...thats why I mentioned the compressor...assumption went that (she?) doesn't have a compressor...I was then enlightened to the contrary.
The assumtion is the water main to the street is off anyway.
If low pressure doesn't hold...then you pump it high and listen for hissing.
No do not open all the faucets only an outside hose bib. The rust could be thick enough to clogg the faucets, ask me how i know.
NO!
Knots in my stomache just thinking of the story.
leejosepho
07-09-2007, 08:03 PM
No do not open all the faucets only an outside hose bib ...
Ah, yes, first flush as much as possible elsewhere!
Winslow
07-09-2007, 08:50 PM
Typically when cast iron that has been used for a period od time then lies unused can present some problems. The inside dries up then when water runs through them the inner buildup in the pipe breaks loose causing clogs, especially in cast iron stacks. Good luck (sincerely, not sarcastically)
What's with the talk of Schrader valves? Use quick connects. They're 3/8" thread and it's easy to bush out to 1/2 or 3/4. Put a ball valve in line and no worries about a leaking connection (or Schrader valve).
GrumpyPlumber
07-09-2007, 10:51 PM
What's with the talk of Schrader valves? Use quick connects. They're 3/8" thread and it's easy to bush out to 1/2 or 3/4. Put a ball valve in line and no worries about a leaking connection (or Schrader valve).
to connect a compressor or pump to.
It's how we test gas ...pump to 3psi and let it sit.
Water is tested at 125 psi the same way with a high pressure gauge, but in this case best to test it at low pressure first and see if the gauge holds...I have half a dozen test tee's set up with shrader valves & gauges on them...never seen it before?
Nope. The folks I've seen around here use hard piping and ball valves. A Schrader leaks at the coupling, restricts flow, and doesn't provide positive shut-off. They might be fine for a 10 minute test but they will leak sooner or later. Local code requires a 24 hour test. A little crazy but ya gotta do what ya gotta do...
All that said, I find a quick coupling more convenient than a Schrader coupling. I'd have to purchase a locking connection for the Schrader and the quick connects lock by design.
. Local code requires a 24 hour test. A little crazy but ya gotta do what ya gotta do...
Wow....how do they discern between a leak and a temperature change over that amount of time.
The max temperature dependent change is about 2 psi. It's a 20 psi test:
4. Subsection 406.4.1 is replaced with the following:
Threaded gas piping shall be tested at 20 psi for a duration of 24 hours. Welded or medium pressure gas piping shall be tested at 60 psi for 24 hours.
GrumpyPlumber
07-10-2007, 07:36 AM
The max temperature dependent change is about 2 psi. It's a 20 psi test:
4. Subsection 406.4.1 is replaced with the following:
Threaded gas piping shall be tested at 20 psi for a duration of 24 hours. Welded or medium pressure gas piping shall be tested at 60 psi for 24 hours.
You'll chuckle.
Here we test water at 125 psi or we can just go live.
On gas, we test at 3psi for (get this) a minimum of ten minutes with a gauge that reads a range of 10 psi for detail.
I always did find that odd...most plumbers here do the 24 hour test for their own conscience.
As for the schraders, seldom a problem even on water tests.
Having schraders on test gauges makes it easier to grab any old bike pump when you don't have a compressor handy.
southernnaturelover
07-10-2007, 07:37 AM
Typically when cast iron that has been used for a period od time then lies unused can present some problems. The inside dries up then when water runs through them the inner buildup in the pipe breaks loose causing clogs, especially in cast iron stacks. Good luck (sincerely, not sarcastically)
That's kinda what I envisioned. I would definitely have to hire a plumber to work on the drains since I wouldn't even attempt to bust up a slab.
I should have stated from the beginning that I will be gutting the interior. All of the sheetrock walls and ceilings will be removed and replaced. The exterior walls are block, but the inner walls are typical 2x4 studs. That's why I said I would just tear out the existing galvanized piping. But, I would need to run the new PVC piping through the attic. My main problem will be where the water pipe comes out of the slab, I will need to convert it over to PVC.
leejosepho
07-10-2007, 09:13 AM
... the new PVC piping ...
Only for cold water. Hot water needs CPVC.
I'm sure some folks around here use Schraders. I don't personally see very many tests.
Isn't the 10 minute, low pressure test in the National Fuel Gas code? I don't know why the locals here think they know better. I'd prefer an accurate low pressure test over a test that is much higher than working pressure and is suject to some uncertainty as Cass pointed out.
In my line of work we do both low and high pressure tests because seals behave differently under different conditions. Of course low pressure is 250 and high is whatever max test rating is for a particular installation, usually 5,000 psi but sometimes 10,000. Those tests are always "stand way back" events.
southernnaturelover
07-10-2007, 09:24 AM
Only for cold water. Hot water needs CPVC.
Would it be best to use CPVC for hot and cold? Even the cold water pipes will get hot occasionally in the attic.
markts30
07-10-2007, 01:48 PM
Having schraders on test gauges makes it easier to grab any old bike pump when you don't have a compressor handy.
Just thinking about using a bike pump for last week's test makes my shoulders ache...
360' of 4" Sch40 welded gas line to pump up - to 100lbs for our test (60 for inspector at "final" time) - It would have taken me most of the week LOL
We use bike pumps for inflating test balls and that is it...
We use compressors to test larger water mains (over 2-1/2") with air (60lbs) before water testing for our own peace of mind (and for fixing any leaks that might have occurred) and we test all gas installs with air as well.
leejosepho
07-10-2007, 06:20 PM
Would it be best to use CPVC for hot and cold? Even the cold water pipes will get hot occasionally in the attic.
First please keep in mind I am not a professional plumber ...
In my own house, I used PVC for everything between the well and the water softener as well as to supply the outside spigots with untreated water ... and I am still in the process of using CPVC for everything else ... and I would suspect some attic areas can at times be too hot for regular PVC, but I do not know that for sure.
GrumpyPlumber
07-10-2007, 08:25 PM
Just thinking about using a bike pump for last week's test makes my shoulders ache...
360' of 4" Sch40 welded gas line to pump up - to 100lbs for our test (60 for inspector at "final" time) - It would have taken me most of the week LOL
We use bike pumps for inflating test balls and that is it...
We use compressors to test larger water mains (over 2-1/2") with air (60lbs) before water testing for our own peace of mind (and for fixing any leaks that might have occurred) and we test all gas installs with air as well.
We're very manly 'round these parts when it comes to 4" gas mains and bike pumps.
I've done commercial ...and NO we didn't use a bike pump.
Bike pumps are good for testing gas...NOT humongo industrial complexes with 6" mains.
And I more often use them for test balls in dandy CO's than anything else.
I'm talking a standard single family with a 1" or 3/4" main.
As for testing water lines...use a compressor or simply fill and keep fingers crossed.
GrumpyPlumber
07-10-2007, 08:27 PM
I'm sure some folks around here use Schraders. I don't personally see very many tests.
Isn't the 10 minute, low pressure test in the National Fuel Gas code? I don't know why the locals here think they know better. I'd prefer an accurate low pressure test over a test that is much higher than working pressure and is suject to some uncertainty as Cass pointed out.
In my line of work we do both low and high pressure tests because seals behave differently under different conditions. Of course low pressure is 250 and high is whatever max test rating is for a particular installation, usually 5,000 psi but sometimes 10,000. Those tests are always "stand way back" events.
OK, you just had to know I was going to ask.
WHAT line of work are you in??
leejosepho
07-11-2007, 04:27 AM
Check his initial posts -- he is the oil-field guy.
GrumpyPlumber
07-11-2007, 06:24 AM
Check his initial posts -- he is the oil-field guy.
You stole his limelight.
was hoping he'd elaborate...industrial stuff is very interesting.
I've worked a good deal of commercial, chemical plants, concrete plants with steam lines and automated solenoids for water injection and machinery that is run all by computer.
I'm one of those dorks who'll sit and watch the science channel show on industrial machinery, or how tin cans are made.
Speaking of tin cans. I found one of the older tin cans with lead seams in a crawl space.
leejosepho
07-11-2007, 04:42 PM
You stole his limelight.
Oops, please pardon!
I'm one ... who'll sit and watch the science channel show on industrial machinery, or how tin cans are made.
Same here.
Did you see the one on toothpicks?
GrumpyPlumber
07-11-2007, 04:55 PM
Oops, please pardon!
Same here.
Did you see the one on toothpicks?
I liked the one on toilets, surprized they aren't more automated, even the coating is sprayed by hand.
Ok, I'll elaborate a little bit.
The oilpatch is a typical business, that is they don't do anything unless they have to and the profit margin determines success or failure.
It's been a long road but we have learned to protect what we must and accept the costs of failure as part of the business.
From a mechanical standpoint, drilling a well is merely boring a hole through rock. Use weight and some form of chisel point and you will break the rock. Of course we must figure out how to remove the broken rock from the cutting face and deal with any fluids in the rock. Sometimes we can't quite figure out how to deal with fluids in the rock and we end up with problems at the surface. For those occasions, we have back-up equipment that we have to be sure works. The equipment is called blow-out prevention equipment (BOPE) which is basically a large valve designed to work under a variety of conditions. We regularly test and rebuild these valves as part of normal operations. The testing and rebuilding of BOPE's is an industry all it's own. Since the cost of failure is high, the cost for operation is quite high. It's all part of the industry. I can go into nauseating detail here about material specs and test procedures. I'd rather not. I will say that machining tolerances are rather tight, pressure tests are downright scary, and the cost of failure includes injury and death. That's just the drilling side of the business. It's not something to just jump into because the salaries look good.
What else to say? Making sure folks have plenty of natural gas and fuel oil is a difficult challenge. The rewards are high but the risks are equally high.
GrumpyPlumber
07-11-2007, 06:26 PM
Joe, that beats toothpics anyday.
leejosepho
07-12-2007, 03:05 AM
The testing and rebuilding of BOPE's is an industry all it's own.
A friend of mine in Texas is a "bit tipper", building up the tips of the bits used to bore holes in rock. He spends the day sitting and leaning over a tub of water that keeps the overall assembly cool while he uses a torch to add the filler rod at the contact points.