Ethics Question

[Cass]

You can look at this any way you like I am interested in all answers.

Plumber works on commission for large nation wide company.

Plumber is dispatched to a home on a clogged floor drain call.

Upon arrival he checks the floor drain and quotes $169.00 and while in the basement he see the water heater leaking and brings it to the attention of the home owner. She says quote me on it.

Plumber quotes $1200.00 for a 50 gallon NG, per the company's guidelines.

She says no thats to much $$. The plumber is allowed to go down 20%, per the company guide lines, but not a dime more so he says with discounts I can go down to $960.00 would you like me to do it?

The lady says no it is to much $$$.

He says O.K. and cleans the floor drain and collects the $150.00. As he is leaving he says I can do your heater personally, separate from the company for $700.00.


She says O.K.

I want your opinions.

Ask me any questions you may have.

Cass

[Cookie]

Question. Did the plumber have an agreement with the company not to do work on the side?

[Cass]

Nothing in writing

[Cookie]

Oh, that is a horse of different color. I would say, go for it.
With employers it got to be in a contract, then, signed on the dotted line. Otherwise, I would think they weren't real serious and would not hold up in court. I wouldn't think nothing would be breeched with an ethics issue either. They would had made it be known.


But, then, they might assume that person knows they are wearing there name and representing them.

I don't know. Hard question maybe.

[jimbo]

Is this hapless plumber an employee of said national company, or is he self employed working on referrals and flat commission for work sold?

[GrumpyPlumber]

Nothing in writing


There's your answer.
NEVER worked in a shop that didn't know we do side work. (maybe pretended not to)
One shop the owner even passed the smaller jobs he didn't want on to us.
1200 is fair for a PV, but IF the price could be quoted at 700 it has to be a draft vent...in which case, both YOU and the woman benefit.(though for a 50 that price is low enough to bite nails when something takes longer than expected or more stock is needed than usual, 1200 for a stndrd 50 gal wtr htr says to me it's paying for a large co's ad bills)
Sorry if thats "unethical", but if she can't afford the higher price (say she's on a fixed income)...the ends justifies the means.

[master plumber mark]

it is not right,,,, and you are encourageing
all your employees to steal you blind.


that happens all the time...
no matter what you pay the men
they still steal.......

at least that is what I call it.....
cause they end up useing my truck, gas and materials too....


and this fellow will probably
use his bossess truck, gas, solder
and probablysteal a water heater too....


they all feel justified in doing it....
the sob boss is not paying me enough, no benefits,
this is how I willl get even with him.......

of course is somethign goes wrong, you can bet
the farm he will never come back.......


my opinion, she is makeing a deal with the Devil.
he wont come back if their is a problem ...

she hsould call someone else
and call his boss too.

[Cass]

Is this hapless plumber an employee of said national company, or is he self employed working on referrals and flat commission for work sold?

Employee Technically, His Own truck,tools, gas, time, everything but parts, and not paid a dime to drive out and do estimates that end in no work if their price is to high.

He makes a flat 30% of all $$$ over parts costs but must price jobs according to their guidelines.

[leejosepho]

If I were that customer, I would probably ask the plumber whether it would be okay with him if I call the company to be sure there is no objection. If he said that would be okay, I would call ... and if not, I would drop the matter and look for someone else to take care of the water heater.

[Alectrician]

I can't believe there is even a question here.

Of COURSE it it unethical.

I can't wait till she calls the company for warranty work.

I know some clown that did a similar thing during an electrical service job. He sold a GFCI receptical on the side, thenleft the check (made out to him) in the company truck for the boss to find. This guy was unethical AND stupid.



Cookie. Just because it's not in writing doen't excuse it.

[Verdeboy]

I prefer the word "unconscionable" rather than "unethical."

Anyone with a conscience would ask their boss if it was okay to do this. And the boss should rightly say no, for the following reason:

In this scenario, the lady said the actual company's price was too high. But once he gets a taste of this easy money, he might make up some ridiculously high price and then say that he'll do it on his own for 1/2 that price. Or he just might tell customers how much cheaper it would be if he did the work on his own right off the bat--not even giving them an opportunity to accept the company's price.

[hj]

Unethical is the right word, and if I found out about it, he would also be out of a job. Union employees are NOT permitted to do side jobs and will be taken before the "E" board if they are discovered doing it. Water heaters are a job that requires a permit, and ANY work that requires a permit can only be done by a licensed contractor. If she wanted to, after he installed the heater, she could tell him to get out of her house and she would not have to pay for it, and every court in the land would back her up.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

This sort of thing happens all the time and the homeowner usually jumps at the chance to have it done cheaper.

The majority of homeowners just want hot water and no leaks, to hell with the politics most times. The ones that do are rare at best.

I couldn't tell you how many water heaters I've replaced over my years in this profession.....not a single one became a issue where the customer demanded I pull a permit and have it inspected. Here soon though, KY is really going to enforce permits for replacement heaters though. I turned down two this week alone just because I didn't like either the attitude of the voice on the phone (It's a 40 gallon short electric, it went in really fast and didn't take long for the last guy to do it) or the repeat customer that hustled me before (I got one of your coupons off your site, my senior citizens discount and an angie's list discount. By the time your done, you'll be paying me.)

Find someone else.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Employee Technically, His Own truck,tools, gas, time, everything but parts, and not paid a dime to drive out and do estimates that end in no work if their price is to high.

He makes a flat 30% of all $$$ over parts costs.

Effectively he's self employed with a 70% overhead for advertizing...sounds to me like an HD "sub"

[Cass]

Even though he uses his own truck, tools, gas, everything but parts etc. he is an employee because the IRS rules say so. Mostly because they dispatch him and he goes where and when they say and he works under their licence and wears their uniform.

[leejosepho]

... he uses his own truck, tools, gas, everything but parts etc.
... they dispatch him and he goes where and when they say ...

Is he getting a 1099 at the end of the year?


... he works under their licence.

There is where things become a bit gray, and I would say the company is to blame. It seems to me they are "using" this plumber and his equipment to avoid having to provide and take care of those things, including him, themselves ... then pretending they are the ones actually making everything happen ... kind of like the box store that contracts owner-operators for deliveries on trucks bearing their name and not to be used for anything else.

Then, I occasionally see off-duty police officers working in uniform as security and with their cars nearby ...

Who is paying that overhead?!

[Cass]

Is he getting a 1099 at the end of the year?


No he gets a W 2

[Cass]

There is where things become a bit gray, and I would say the company is to blame. It seems to me they are "using" this plumber and his equipment to avoid having to provide and take care of those things, including him, themselves ... then pretending they are the ones actually making everything happen ... kind of like the box store that contracts owner-operators for deliveries on trucks bearing their name and not to be used for anything else.

Then, I occasionally see off-duty police officers working in uniform as security and with their cars nearby ...

Who is paying that overhead?!

I agree to a point but no one is holding a gun to his head making him stay with the company.

[leejosepho]

No he gets a W 2

In my mind, that confirms my suspicion the company is taking advantage of him by doing a little paperwork in exchange for his capital investment. Also, my guess would be that the company does not care about any side work he might do. They know, or they at least believe/assume he is going to complete most or all of the jobs assigned to him, and they will likely discharge him if too many of their jobs end up being nothing more than his personal leads.

[leejosepho]

I agree to a point but no one is holding a gun to his head making him stay with the company.

With the matters of advertising, licensing, permits, liability insurance, warranties and the like all considered, that would be situational. If the plumber cannot also take care of those things on his own, he would eventually get "shot" anyway.

[master plumber mark]

the company you are talking about is
probably one that begins or ends with
r in it..

they are big here and I pity the fools that work
for that place......


they usually getfed a big line of hooey about
how much money that they will make on comissioin....

then they have to lease a truck from R and its
usually their problem to maintian the piece of junk
they are driveing too.. it is usually beaten up pretty
badly by the last
sucker that worked their

.

all jobs are taken on ....
in every neighborhood good or
bad night or day...nothing can be turned down.


they have sort of been given a liscense to steal
because usually everything above the parts costs
is split 70 --30....



once they figure out that they are really just stealing
for their Company with no real future working for the place
this side work starts to happen....


eventually either they wise up , quit and move on


or their leased truck breaks down and they cant afford to
fix it and move on


or they steal too much from someone
for their employeer and both of them land in hot water....
of course the boss washes his hands and denies everything
and this "employee theif" is usually let go......



its no place anyone should have to work

[GrumpyPlumber]

In my mind, that confirms my suspicion the company is taking advantage of him by doing a little paperwork in exchange for his capital investment. Also, my guess would be that the company does not care about any side work he might do. They know, or they at least believe/assume he is going to complete most or all of the jobs assigned to him, and they will likely discharge him if too many of their jobs end up being nothing more than his personal leads.


My thoughts EXACTLY...this is why I opted for the "unethical" at first, he shouldn't be working for them @ 30% if he supplies his own tools, gas, time estimating...etc.
On the other hand, it IS his choice to work for them...part of me wonders that maybe because he decided to, then he should abide by conscience.
I'd looked into a "service" online that offered work to licensed subs a few years back, they offered me 50% after stock, worked at THEIR rates, but I was responsible for everything, liability, permits, insurance...etc, I shot them down.

[leejosepho]

... it IS his choice to work for them...part of me wonders that maybe because he decided to, then he should abide by conscience.

Yes, and viewed from any angle, the matter of personal character (as opposed to "situation ethics") is always the bottom line. A worker (or even an outright slave) can either accept or reject any terms placed before him, yet those terms, however good or bad, do not then give him or her liberties beyond the initial arrangement.

[GrumpyPlumber]

This isn't relevant, but Lee...please..DON'T change that ICON...ever.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Yes, and viewed from any angle, the matter of personal character (as opposed to "situation ethics") is always the bottom line. A worker (or even an outright slave) can either accept or reject any terms placed before him, yet those terms, however good or bad, do not then give him or her liberties beyond the initial arrangement.


True that, but one factor regarding the "terms" was Cass's mention of "nothing in writing".
silly thought...if the "employed" plumber in question were an ex-lawyer...maybe it's ethical (pun INTENDED...lawyers need not be offended!)

[Verdeboy]

Unethical is the right word
"Ethics" refer to an external code of rules and policies, which can be adhered to or not, which can be enforced or not, which vary from culture to culture and situation to situation.

"conscience" is a guiding force that is internal, always with us, and can help us deal with every situation.

Most of the problems in human society are the result of not following, or losing our connection to, our conscience.

IMHO, If you're so miserable with the company you work for that you try to screw them at every turn, it's time to find a different company to work for.

[master plumber mark]

From VERDEBOY
IMHO, If you're so miserable with the company you work for that you try to screw them at every turn, it's time to find a different company to work for.[/quote]



most of these fellows could not get a job anywhere else
because of the little scams that they pulled with more
legit places that they worked at......

thats why they are where they are.
they are on the bottom rung already

.


Right now their are a number of clowns like this in our town
that absolutely no-one will hire anymmore..literally EVERYONE
knows of them and everyone knows that they are nothing but trouble

they always lie on their work applications ....

But All I got to do is call around to a number of differnet plumbers in town and
ask if "joe bighead" ever worked for them
and usually one of them
will need to vent off some steam about
"old joe" and tell me the whole story...




so eventually they finally end up at...... R....

or they could move up to Chicago....
and start over with a semi-clean slate.......



kharma...... what goes around comes around.....

[leejosepho]

All I got to do is call around ... and ask ... and usually one of them will need to vent off some steam about "old joe" ...

Hey, watch it there! :)

[v10rick]

The IRS is focusing on trades that typically do not report income like this.

If the mechanic is willing to provide his SS# with the understanding that he will receive a 1099 at the end of the year he may not be so willing to undercut his boss.

Does the homeowner realize that they could be responsible for taxes, interest and penalties if they are audited?

As a matter of principal I would refuse to do business with anyone that cannot provide a invoice with a tax id number.

[Cass]

Does the homeowner realize that they could be responsible for taxes, interest and penalties if they are audited?



You need to explain to me, cause I have no Idea how this could be??????

[GrumpyPlumber]

You need to explain to me, cause I have no Idea how this could be??????
I save records & pay on all my work.
H.O'.s can claim on property if they sell it that year (as an investment expense).
Rental properties as well.
Thats my best guess at what he meant.

[Cass]

The IRS can only track $$$ if there is a SS# attached to it.

They will not and do not try and catch someone pocketing $1000.00

They don't have the man power / money / to waste on small potatoes when they can find people who owe $100s of thousands or millions and have the $$$ that they can take.

If people took the time to read and understand Title 26 (IRS code) they would know that 98- 99% of the people living and working in states had no tax liability and were not require file.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Here's the bottom line:


You take money from anyone, ANYONE, in the form of a check, it is a paper trail....period.


If you take money from a customer and put it through your personal name instead of the business a audit will show up on those "deposits" to your personal accounts and you'll have to provide some valid reason for the check amount and what was involved.

I know a builder who got pegged to the wall for not claiming side jobs through his work. You can't be depositing 1000's of dollars into your personal accounts and saying that was play money. Doesn't work that way. The IRS cometh and taketh, and punisheth.

What they did for torment was wait 4 years till they busted him. All those penalties and interest over 4 years cost him the price of a house. And the guarantee of future audits.

[leejosepho]

"Ethics" refer to an external code of rules and policies ... which vary from culture to culture and situation to situation.

So then, it is sometimes okay to lie, cheat, steal, deceive, take advantage, be disrespectful ... or what?


"conscience" is a guiding force that is internal, always with us, and can help us deal with every situation.

Not everyone has the same "conscience". We all know we should not steal, yet some folks would have no problem, and/or would actually feel completely justified taking home just about anything from a paper clip to the boss's wife. So then:


"Ethics" refer to an external code of rules and policies ...

... and if those are not absolute, what reason is there to bother with them at all?

[leejosepho]

If people took the time to read and understand Title 26 (IRS code) they would know that 98- 99% of the people living and working in states had no tax liability and were not require file.

Yes. Only actual gains through commerce can be taxed, not personal income. But, police-state socialism is now upon us.

[Verdeboy]

So then, it is sometimes okay to lie, cheat, steal, deceive, take advantage, be disrespectful ... or what? Not everyone has the same "conscience". We all know we should not steal, yet some folks would have no problem, and/or would actually feel completely justified taking home just about anything from a paper clip to the boss's wife. So then:... and if those are not absolute, what reason is there to bother with them at all?
Rules and laws have historically, and continue to be, created, by those in power. Hence, it was totally legal and proper to own slaves and annihilate the indigenous people of this land we call the USA. So, thank goodness those ethics were not absolute.

The most absolute laws I can think of are the ten commandments. Think of how much murder and mayhem have come after these commandments were written in stone.

You don't really think that otherwise good and honest people would suddenly become rapists, thieves, and murderers if they began following their conscience instead of a bunch of silly laws created by (in the case of the US) overpaid, out-of-touch, generally corrupt lawmakers?

[Cookie]

Well, just incase rules don't make one decent, a stun gun will give them a conscience with a jolt. :D

[GrumpyPlumber]

Rules and laws have historically, and continue to be, created, by those in power. Hence, it was totally legal and proper to own slaves and annihilate the indigenous people of this land we call the USA. So, thank goodness those ethics were not absolute.

The most absolute laws I can think of are the ten commandments. Think of how much murder and mayhem have come after these commandments were written in stone.

You don't really think that otherwise good and honest people would suddenly become rapists, thieves, and murderers if they began following their conscience instead of a bunch of silly laws created by (in the case of the US) overpaid, out-of-touch, generally corrupt lawmakers?

NOT going to religion or politics...NOT here!
But, the whole story makes me think of some guy in a three piece in a corporate office somewhere thinking "Gee..I have a good, money making idea.".
I'd wager money that if we were to see the stats on those "employee's" they'd all be in their early 20's, just starting out and relatively unfamiliar with the concept of marketing/advertizing vs return.
American capitalism has always walked the fine line between right and wrong. (PT Barnum's "there's a sucker born every minute" ).
Your examples are exreme, but valid...if corporate america were left unchecked, we'd all be slave labor.
In the simple matter of ethical vs unethical and whats right and wrong...let's look at Bill Gates and what our government decided regarding his monopolization. (I think he's responsible for my having to decipher what the foreign guy is trying to tell me when I call customer service for help with my new hard drive.)
As far as the IRS standards for employment VS self employment, I am almost certain he's not qualified as an employee, not by the guidelines I recently had my cpa quote me regarding an inquiry on taking on "temporary" help.
This fella, using his own tools for example, regular plumbing shops provide all power tools aside from hand tools, and pay for the co truck, gas & mileage.
The fella Cass refers to made an ill informed decision to work for that company, yes. (in my opinion)
The guy at the corporate office made an ill informed decision to have the fella sign a contract that didn't include doing his own work.
Is it unethical, sure.
But then, so was slavery.

[Pewterpower]

Don't confuse unethical with illegal.
Some people think an abortion is unethical, but yet it is perfectly legal.
I think the plumber in this exercise was unethical. He was sent there by the company he worked for, and then tried to actively sell his own services.
On the other hand, if his neighbor/friend/relative called and said, "Hey, bro, can ya help me this weekend with a water heater?" I think he would be perfectly justified in taking that job.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Don't confuse unethical with illegal.
Some people think an abortion is unethical, but yet it is perfectly legal.
I think the plumber in this exercise was unethical. He was sent there by the company he worked for, and then tried to actively sell his own services.
On the other hand, if his neighbor/friend/relative called and said, "Hey, bro, can ya help me this weekend with a water heater?" I think he would be perfectly justified in taking that job.
Confusing topic, but can't argue that point.

[Cass]

The plumber had followed all the rules set by his employer in regards to selling work.

He had done all the work the lady agreed to.

The water heater sale was lost as far as the company's guidelines were considered. They would not put it in for any less.

It (the water heater) was not what he was dispatched out for.

He had collected the $$$$ and was on his way out.


Why was offering to do it privately on his time at that point unethical.

[kordts]

In Illinois, only registered plumbing contractors or their employees can perform plumbing for payment. No moonlighters or siders for money. If you work for ABC Plumbing, the check the homeowner makes out better be to ABC Plumbing. So in Illinois, the above described scenario is illegal.

[GrumpyPlumber]

In Illinois, only registered plumbing contractors or their employees can perform plumbing for payment. No moonlighters or siders for money. If you work for ABC Plumbing, the check the homeowner makes out better be to ABC Plumbing. So in Illinois, the above described scenario is illegal.


Thats interesting, in MA as long as your licensed you can pull your own permits, regardless who you work for or when you do the work.

[leejosepho]

Rules and laws have historically, and continue to be, created, by those in power ...

The most absolute laws I can think of are the ten commandments.

The "absolutes" were made known long ago, and there is actually no need for any man or men to make any new law at all.


Think of how much murder and mayhem have come after [the ten] commandments were written in stone.

Thereby proving man cannot live rightly merely by his own conscience.


You don't really think that otherwise good and honest people would suddenly become rapists, thieves, and murderers if they began following their conscience instead of a bunch of ... laws ...

Do you assume those "otherwise good and honest people" to which you elude are not already following a given conscience rather than mere laws?

The argument some folks make here is that man can/does naturally develop a moral/ethical conscience that is ultimately "good", yet history does not even come close to documenting any such ability or inclination.

[leejosepho]

The plumber had followed all the rules ... done all the [called-for] work ... collected the $$$$ and was on his way out.

Why was offering to do it privately on his time at that point unethical.

With all matters of license, permits and the like set aside, it was not.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

This thread has me drinking vodka right now. Please, continue.

[Pewterpower]

I believe that everybody, deep down inside, whether they are good, bad, or indifferent, actually knows right from wrong.

If you were this guy's boss and you found out what he just did, it would probably piss you off. Cuz you know it ain't right.......

If you were the guy that made the offer to the homeowner, and you just found out that the boss knows all about it, and wants to talk to you in the morning........you'd probably be really worried about it. Cuz you know it ain't right.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The argument some folks make here is that man can/does naturally develop a moral/ethical conscience that is ultimately "good", yet history does not even come close to documenting any such ability or inclination.

Ouch!
I know people can be egocentric, selfish, self centered...the list goes on.
Nobody gets up in the morning intending to be any of that, the trouble starts when we percieve our negative actions as "justified", then either conveniently or angrily look past our wrongs to only see the wrongs of others.
A distortion of perception...in this case some of us see what appears to be an attempt at this type distortion, but there was a written contract signed that defines the intended perception.
This contract states the man work for 30% without reimbursement of gas, travel, tools...or time spent pitching a job at the companies price even when rejected. He's labelled "employee" with no unemployment insurance, health or disability. (I'm assuming...Cass, correct me if wrong)
The written contract makes no stipulation for the hypothetical "employee" to refuse any request for his personal services.
Legal...well it looks that way, barring unveiled detail (Cass?)...but unethical?
On a superficial level, almost.
In terms of the larger picture -
He made the choice to work for the outfit based on a written contract...despite it's borderline ethics - that was HIS choice.
(I say it's illegal, but I'm not a legal expert)
They made the choice to omit this detail in the contract they had him sign -
That was THEIR choice.
I'm wondering if the low percentage has to do with the fact that they know he'll likely get business of his own from the referrals and maybe thats the reason they worded the contract as they did.
Cass...fill in any blanks you see.
For what it's worth...this topic has become VERY interesting and it's a pleasure to see we can disagree without personal insult.

[leejosepho]

If you were this guy's boss and you found out ...

If you were the guy ... and you just found out that the boss knows ...


As I had posted earlier on ...


... my guess would be that [the employee already knows] the company does not care about any side work he might do. They know, or they at least believe/assume he is going to complete most or all of the jobs assigned to him, and they will likely discharge him if too many of their jobs end up being nothing more than his personal leads.

[leejosepho]

I know people can be egocentric, selfish, self centered...
... the trouble starts when we percieve our negative actions as "justified" ...
A distortion of perception...

... or outright depravity?!


... it's a pleasure to see we can disagree without personal insult.

Must be "quality conscience", or something like that!

Or, maybe some folks are just following somebody's rules ...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

This sort of thing happens in every profession there is, moonlighting at the expense of your company.

I don't think it will ever stop.

I don't think I could stop it if I had employees. The more you control your workers the more likely a boomerang effect can take place. Paying them more to stop it will not solve the problem.

We all know that no matter how much they make, it's never enough.

[GrumpyPlumber]

This sort of thing happens in every profession there is, moonlighting at the expense of your company.

I don't think it will ever stop.

I don't think I could stop it if I had employees. The more you control your workers the more likely a boomerang effect can take place. Paying them more to stop it will not solve the problem.

We all know that no matter how much they make, it's never enough.


RUGGED, one guy I worked for came up with the PERFECT solution...he passed on the smaller jobs on to us!
He'd ask some of us on the side if we had time to handle a boiler this weekend or a faucet replace...etc.
I actually did a boiler with his son...referred to us by him.
He payed better than anyone else around, excellent bennies...would show up at the job and was just one of the boys.
He'd rag the guys "Geesh, your mom dress you this morning??"...and we'd make comebacks like "No, yours did".
I have never seen anyone run a company like him, nor have I ever seen anyone make as much money.
He realized there was no need to "defend his territory"...that, like you said, the guys will always do side work...so he took it to the next level, we appreciated it and worked that much harder for him, and had that much more loyalty to him.

[GrumpyPlumber]

... or outright depravity?!



Must be "quality conscience", or something like that!

Or, maybe some folks are just following somebody's rules ...

Oh, yes...rules, laws even.

[Cass]

The plumber had followed all the rules set by his employer in regards to selling work.

He had done all the work the lady agreed to.

The water heater sale was lost as far as the company's guidelines were considered. They would not put it in for any less.

It (the water heater) was not what he was dispatched out for.

He had collected the $$$$ and was on his way out.


Why was offering to do it privately on his time at that point unethical.

The final chapter will be posted toinght so please post your replys to this question.

Thanks.

[Verdeboy]

The "absolutes" were made known long ago, and there is actually no need for any man or men to make any new law at all.Thereby proving man cannot live rightly merely by his own conscience.
Do you assume those "otherwise good and honest people" to which you elude are not already following a given conscience rather than mere laws?The argument some folks make here is that man can/does naturally develop a moral/ethical conscience that is ultimately "good", yet history does not even come close to documenting any such ability or inclination.

The problem with rules and laws is that they can never cover every possible situation. When it tries to do that, you get something akin to our own legal system. Our legal system is so complex, it is all tied up in knots and often stumbles around, getting in its own way.

By definition, a conscience is a "moral compass." My point is that we get into trouble when we stop listening to it. Usually, when we stop listening to it we are trying to rationalize or justify our behaviour, rather than going by our gut feeling (conscience).

[leejosepho]

The problem with rules and laws is that they can never cover every possible situation. When it tries to do that, you get something akin to our own legal system. Our legal system is so complex, it is all tied up in knots and often stumbles around, getting in its own way.

Yes, understood. And, that is one reason "by the book" cannot always guarantee a right or best outcome.


By definition, a conscience is a "moral compass." My point is that we get into trouble when we stop listening to it. Usually, when we stop listening to it we are trying to rationalize or justify our behaviour, rather than going by our gut feeling (conscience).

Agreed, as long as there is a healthy and working conscience actually present.

[GrumpyPlumber]

This thread has me drinking vodka right now. Please, continue.


Amidst all the deep thoughts, I just caught that...RUGGED...
THANK YOU I needed that.


Cass...great thread, awaiting the results tonight

[geniescience]

Equity is a set of principles, supplementing strict rules (i.e. law) where their application would operate harshly. See this thread Sidework? http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12199 for a discussion of this as it applies to doing work on the side in the area or field in which you are professionally active. The last post to date, from lovetohelpya, explains how the situation described in Cass' first post is similar.

Years ago, employees were expected not to moonlight, and that was clearly expressed in society at large everywhere. It is less clearly expressed today. The principle has not changed, just the degree of repression. Equity is equitable treatment. Equity has fuzzy boundaries.

david

[GrumpyPlumber]

Equity is a set of principles, supplementing strict rules (i.e. law) where their application would operate harshly. See this thread Sidework? http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12199 for a discussion of this as it applies to doing work on the side in the area or field in which you are professionally active. The last post to date, from lovetohelpya, explains how the situation described in Cass' first post is similar.

Years ago, employees were expected not to moonlight, and that was clearly expressed in society at large everywhere. It is less clearly expressed today. The principle has not changed, just the degree of repression. Equity is equitable treatment. Equity has fuzzy boundaries.

david

Good reference thread...one thing I caught was this:

Personally I think doing work for friends and especially family is the worst side work you can do. Talk about not wanting to pay a reasonable rate.
I don't charge family, friends get a lower rate.
My mother in law has the "house of eternal plumbing troubles", I know her cellar better than she does.
I'd feel like a creep eating Thanksgiving meals there if I charged for labor.
For CLOSE friends I charge what I'd make per hour working for a shop...provided it's a small job, BUT being grumpy keeps the list of friends down.
(that was a joke...really...it was!, it was!)
Most shops I ever worked for would openly discourage side work, ESPECIALLY for apprentices, but the known rule is that is your time and this is a free country. (IF you're useless the next day after side work, day after day...you're boss is also free to fire you - If your taking clients, you could see legal trouble).
I'd made a post above regarding one shop I worked for, where the owner actually referred work to us...he knew he couldn't control what we do with our time, so he applied common sense and it worked heavily to his benefit.

[master plumber mark]

I have no desire to work for freinds anymore...


bartering with freinds is the absolute worst thing you
can get yourself into...


If they were truely your freind, they would offer to
pay you what it was worth...not ask for the low---low ---buddies discount....


you dont know how many times I have had calls from
freinds I had not heard from forever and asked if I could
do some plumbing for "beer and pizza"....

no thanks ,
its cheaper if I buy my own beer and pizza and stay home.

[Cass]

I think friends should pay me more than a regular plumber...............after all.............arent they my friends.

Hows that for flip flopping the whole idea of a discount for friends.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I think friends should pay me more than a regular plumber...............after all.............arent they my friends.

Hows that for flip flopping the whole idea of a discount for friends.

Um yeah...thats all nice...but You PROMISED the results last night!!!
We wanna know!!!!!

[Pewterpower]

Maybe Cass was out late last night installing this lady's water heater. :D

[Alectrician]

Moonlighting is one thing but the original question went beyond that.

That was the COMPANY'S customer and the employee stole it.

I have always encouraged moonlighting as long they don't :


1. Use my tools.

2. Use my materials.

3. Take my customers.

Because:

A. I want them to know what a pain in the ass it can be.

B. I want them to be able to make some extra cash.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Moonlighting is one thing but the original question went beyond that.

That was the COMPANY'S customer and the employee stole it.

I have always encouraged moonlighting as long they don't :


1. Use my tools.

2. Use my materials.

3. Take my customers.

Because:

A. I want them to know what a pain in the ass it can be.

B. I want them to be able to make some extra cash.

subject "A" is the BIG one!
All things told...I can respect that.

[leejosepho]

Moonlighting is one thing but the original question went beyond that.
That was the COMPANY'S customer and the employee stole it.

Not so. He not only completed the work the customer had ordered from the company, he also offered to do more work for her for the company. It was only after she declined the company's lowest price that he then said he could do the work for her on his own ... and using his own tools, etc.


I have always [conditionally] encouraged moonlighting ...

... and that would be a matter of equity:


Equity is equitable treatment ...

... or, and if I might suggest so, something like "equal opportunity" ... as in "life, liberty and the ownership of property."

Back in the 1950s, my father was a production worker in a mobile-home-only factory when he began moonlighting(?) in his own garage, making travel trailers and pickup campers.

Ten successful years later, my father fired his own plant superintendant after he (my dad) quite unexpectedly saw the man showing a pickup camper from his own garage to one of my dad's dealers after work one day.

If the man had been making mobile homes, I am sure my dad would have said nothing.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Back in the 1950s, my father was a production worker in a mobile-home-only factory when he began moonlighting(?) in his own garage, making travel trailers and pickup campers.

Ten successful years later, my father fired his own plant superintendant after he (my dad) quite unexpectedly saw the man showing a pickup camper from his own garage to one of my dad's dealers after work one day.

If the man had been making mobile homes, I am sure my dad would have said nothing.

Thats it, right there, in a nutshell.
The line wasn't crossed when Cass's example bid the job at the company's price and she turned it down.
She was no longer their client, she still needed a water heater and he no longer had the option to do it for that company under their pricing terms.
He was left with the option of walking away having taken HIS time to estimate and negotiate, fully knowing that another local guy would be back to do it at a lower price after he'd invested his personal time for free.
(I'll say again, the title "employee" really can't be right in this example)

[Cookie]

I still think the employee should go for it. His company couldn't fill the bill for the client. Why let it go to maybe their competitors? There has been times I picked up assignments on the side when covering something. I got kids to feed. (Unless, Grumpy ups the entertainment fee I need to continue moonlighting).

[GrumpyPlumber]

I still think the employee should go for it. His company couldn't fill the bill for the client. Why let it go to maybe their competitors? There has been times I picked up assignments on the side when covering something. I got kids to feed. (Unless, Grumpy ups the entertainment fee I need to continue moonlighting).


I'm onto your diabolical plot to make me "ungrumpy".

[kordts]

Well,
back in the day, cowboys used to talk about "riding for the brand." You took the pay, room and board, and gave your loyalty in return. I don't think this guy is riding for the brand. If he doesn't like his set-up, quit.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Well,
back in the day, cowboys used to talk about "riding for the brand." You took the pay, room and board, and gave your loyalty in return. I don't think this guy is riding for the brand. If he doesn't like his set-up, quit.


They came out with labor laws after that period.
40 hr week, time and a half for overtime, health insurance...that kinda thing.
The company gives him none of that,
For an 18th century single cowboy....good.
By contemporary standards for a family man...not good.

[kordts]

Grumpy are you an owner? I think you are, I am and I think siders are wrong, and I am in the unusual postion of agreeing with my state law in this situation.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Grumpy are you an owner? I think you are, I am and I think siders are wrong, and I am in the unusual postion of agreeing with my state law in this situation.


Therein lies the difference...I could be corrected, but in some states the "license" you work under is the master that owns the company.
You aren't "licensed" unless you're working under him. (again...correct me if wrong)
Here, you do your time & school, pass the test and you are licensed.
What Joe does at 5pm is NONE of my business, unless Joe is the reason Bob the builder hasn't been returning my calls, then Joe gets to meet Herbie, my lawyer who is kind enough to work out a nice, civil court ordered payment arrangement for damages and Herbies fee's. (Harry the inspector is perfectly happy to forward permit records on subpoena...assuming Joe wouldn't risk his livelyhood doing illegal work)
If Joe's doing his own work, I applaud him.
If Joe's sleeping on the job, he's fired.
If I like Joe and want him to stick around and be happy...I go into my voicemails and give him the faucets and toilets I know I don't have time for, then Joe can't say a bad thing about working for me and he tells his friend Bill to apply for a job with us.

[master plumber mark]

They came out with labor laws after that period.
40 hr week, time and a half for overtime, health insurance...that kinda thing.
The company gives him none of that,
For an 18th century single cowboy....good.
By contemporary standards for a family man...not good.


if that is really the case, I suggest this fellowgo out and get an education and do someting else....

or go out and start hos own business
and stop leeching off the owner of the company and see
what it feels like on the bosses side of the tracks.



I know from personal experience, you cant make employees happy... so I dont try to anymore....

decent health benefits....nope..dont work

a truck to drive home ...nope dont work

they condiser overtime an insult....dont want it

and a 401 k is mandatory......


and they still feel you owe them ....
that they are giveing you
a break showing up for $20 per hour....



I thought of maybe pickin g them
up in the morning with a Limo.....


but you got to draw the line somewhere..



honestly , for my next go-around with employees

I will hire a Mexican...
I dont think that they feel entitled to everything
just handed to them.....not yet anyway

[Terry]

Six pack of beer, $7.49
Pizza that I bake at home, $12.99

At home with my family, Priceless.

[master plumber mark]

Believe it or not I actually had a guy call me
and claim that he was going to have a demo party
on his bathroom and needed me to supervise the
event......for beer and pizza

then he mentioned that most of the fellows comming
could only stay for an hour or two,,,due to other prior committments.....

so guess which dummie he expected to do this bathroom...??????


I never showed up....and never heard from him again..

Getting rid of that leech......I think that was priceless too...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

That happened to me with a guy who was building his garage. He asked if I could "give him some pointers" with the layout of the footers which had stepdowns every 4 foot to make up for the steep hill.

Turned out he was over his head big time, overcut the ground big time and when they poured the footers they never put keyways in without rebar uprights.

And apparently it was my fault because they didn't know this because I wasn't there every day......?

Then they come in to set the panels.....they set the step downs at a loose dimension and you can only imagine how difficult that was to contend with when the symmons forms went up.

The guy got busted 3 days later by the police enforcement for theft by unlawful taking. All of us freaked out and left; he ended up taking the panels down before pouring the walls and covering it all up.

Never again.

[leejosepho]

cowboys used to talk about "riding for the brand." You took the pay, room and board, and gave your loyalty in return.

Personally, I think that is best ... just like the UPS guy/gal does not have the time to also deliver mail even though the USPS carrier also delivers packages.


I don't think this guy is riding for the brand.

And, neither is the company providing horse, saddle, blanket, beans, coffee nor rope.


If he doesn't like his set-up ...

We do not know he does not, and neither do we know the company does not want him doing his own work after he has completed theirs.

I used to be a commissioned (W-2) cab driver, and it was clearly understood I could only run calls that came through the company's dispatcher. The company supplied everything, and I went only wherever I was sent.

On the other hand, a lease (1099) driver for the same company paid a fee to use the car and bought his or her own gas while having the option of never asking the dispatcher for a call as long as s/he did not run any "on the side" that would have otherwise come through the dispatcher and been available to the rest of us also. That arrangement hurt the company when there were too few regular drivers to handle all the calls, but the company still got its lease money even when it had no calls to offer.

Cass: What had the company been expecting as to side jobs?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Nobody, nobody has mentioned the most certain point of his intent,



supplemental income. It's a nice addition to your paycheck and someone is going to make money off that replacement, period. All the customer wants is that it's done right and done cheap; that's what they all want.


Did the question of this thread ever get answered?

[Pewterpower]

There are only 3 answers to this question:

1. YES

2. NO

3. MAYBE

...they are all correct and open to interpretation by the person trying to answer.

I guess the bottom line here is that you need to have it spelled out specifically in the form of a written contract/agreement as to what you can/cannot do. That would be the only way to eliminate the gray area that we are all trying to speculate answers on. But even that would be a daunting task. I'm sure someone has such a contract somewhere....

[master plumber mark]

Nobody, nobody has mentioned the most certain point of his intent,



supplemental income. It's a nice addition to your paycheck and someone is going to make money off that replacement, period. All the customer wants is that it's done right and done cheap; that's what they all want.


Did the question of this thread ever get answered?


will this employee who does this side job give his boss some sort of
kick-back for the money he has spent for his advertiseing ???

nooooo waaaayyy is that gong to happen....



I willing to bet that this fellow used his
bosses supplies and materials too......for that
supllimental income.

if you can remember one thing.....
you make a dishonest deal and you both eventually suffer the consequences..

whatever the consequences may be is unknown......

thats a rule to live by.....



yes he got the job done cheap,
behind someones back

and maybe those two fellows will be best buddies for life...

but usually it dont work that way.....


you cant buy true freinds

and you certainly cant make freinds by doing work cheap.......

and you certainly cant barter for future benefits either........



and you dont make a deal with the Devil...

because he never keeps up his end of the deal...


what comes around ---goes around
.

[kordts]

I am just saying it's illegal in Illinois. So, if the deal went down here, it's illegal. The unions and the contractors both pushed for it. It's actually a felony.

[Cookie]

WOW, Terry! Your beer is expensive there! :eek:
Is that imported German kind?

[Cookie]

Here I got a question.
What are we all not a customer at some point?

When we go buy a new car do we say to the salesman, " I am not concerned about price, I just want that one--over there, don't even tell me the price, I will just sign on the dotted line."

Whatever he tells you, we believe and we trust to be right, no questions asked. We don't even want to know how much per month that car payment will be for 3, 4 , or 5 years.

Now, we go and buy a house. We tell the sales agent again, " price is not a consideration". I want a 4 bedroom, 2 bath, brick 2 story. Again we trust the sales agent when he or she tells you there is nothing wrong with the house, we don't even bother to hire a home inspector because of the reputation of the agent. It is that good. We don't even ask how much the interest rate is or how much the mortage payment will be, why should we? The sales agent is that good. After all he pays about 300 a month for his name to be in that little book, another 2000 a year for advertising and 500 for keeping his license hanging on that wall. He is good.

We buy that house. We need a gas grill. We need furniture. Not once did we go into that store and look at price tags.

We need some dead animal to throw on that grill. We don't even feel the sticker shock at the meat deli. We buy big fat steaks to go all around the house welcoming party.

We all are customers at some point in our lives, on even a daily basis, minute by minute basis.

Our kids will grow up. They will want to be something in life. We don't even ask the price of 4 years at Yale, Harvard or a business or tech school. We just sign on the dotted line.

If we were to ask the price of the car, the house, the grill, the dead cow, the chair we are sitting on, what it will cost to educated our children we might actually offend those people. So, we just open our wallets and say, " here."

We all are customers in like no matter what our professions.

A man's time is his worth.

Now back to my vodka with Rugged. :D

[GrumpyPlumber]

[SIZE=3]bosses supplies and materials too......for that
supllimental income.
.

Cass already clarified that point...the guy was expected to use his own tools, his gas, his vehicle.
Materials, (assuming the has to track materials per re-imbursement)
We don't know if he already had his own pipe/fittings on his truck...

RUGGED had a good question...where's the answer?
oooohhhhh Caaassssss!

[Verdeboy]

RUGGED had a good question...where's the answer?
oooohhhhh Caaassssss!
I don't see how there can be one right answer to this. Cass can say whether or not the guy was fired, but that does not mean it was the right thing to do.

We can debate that 'til the cows come home.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I don't see how there can be one right answer to this. Cass can say whether or not the guy was fired, but that does not mean it was the right thing to do.

We can debate that 'til the cows come home.

I know, and for what it's worth, it's been very enlightening to hear the wide variety of perspectives.
I've found myself rethinking some ideals and reinforcing others.

[master plumber mark]

Cass already clarified that point...the guy was expected to use his own tools, his gas, his vehicle.
Materials, (assuming the has to track materials per re-imbursement)
We don't know if he already had his own pipe/fittings on his truck...

RUGGED had a good question...where's the answer?
oooohhhhh Caaassssss!



Its all ok...... and everyone sees things from differnet angles.......

but I can almost guarantee you that this fellow had to use
materials that are on that truck...

one way or another....

its all what you justify for yourself in your own mind.......

when I worked for a commerical out fit in Denver Colorado...buckets of materials were laying everywhere from one condo to another....

job trailers were left open....

and I am pretty sure its how some fellows justified working for the .......SOB .......walking off with a bucket of fittings every so often.....to do their side jobs....

...

[GrumpyPlumber]

Its all ok...... and everyone sees things from differnet angles.......

but I can almost guarantee you that this fellow had to use
materials that are on that truck...

one way or another....

its all what you justify for yourself in your own mind.......

when I worked for a commerical out fit in Denver Colorado...buckets of materials were laying everywhere from one condo to another....

job trailers were left open....

and I am pretty sure its how some fellows justified working for the .......SOB .......walking off with a bucket of fittings every so often.....to do their side jobs....

...



The materials in this case are in HIS truck (we prolly need the info from Cass)
I worked for a shop that used to get cleaned out, literally from all the side work..owner finally put GPS locators on his trucks and bagged a few.
I suggested he keep the actual store closed and have his first year apprentice set-up stock from lists called in.
He went with that idea.

[Cookie]

What is ethics.

I have a part 2 to my question about all of us being customers.

If a saleperson shows a house or many houses to the same potential buyer but, that buyer then decides to go with someone else who just showed him one---but, one of the same houses, is it ethical for him to buy it? Or should he go back to the other agent who spent alot of his time with him earlier.

The same with a car.

Ethics is a state of being. It is something which cannot be determined by rules governed by the state or a court. It would take away man's worth.

[Cookie]

I have noticed that most professions have a " code of ethics." In journalism it is really very long. I found something which in many ways sizes it up. I am quoting this and leaving out the name.

The discussion of any *** Code of Ethics is like a discussion on politics or religion: there are more than two sides, all sides are strongly opinionated, and seldom do they choose the same path to the same end.

It doesn't mean it can't be discussed. Although, just agree with me, lol.:D

That that plumber had his God given right to do plumbing on the side if he wanted and since, his company did not fit the bill, he also, had a God given right to do the work instead. He didn't take anything or wouldn't be taking anything from anyone under those circumstances.

Infact, he is probably keeping the customer for his company by the customer not going somewhere else to the competitor. It is a 2 way street.

No profession, no business, no company should be able to morally or legally dictate what a man does to earn a buck after he checks out at that place of employment. It is his time.

And I also think all employees should get 5 weeks paid vacation, :D

[GrumpyPlumber]

I worked for a German machinist/engineer years ago...they have that many weeks in Germany, they work hard and play hard.
Most countries have more vacation time than we do.
The Germans, in particular are extremely good machinist and engineers, the best in the world in my opinion...maybe they know something we don't.

[leejosepho]

Most countries have more vacation time than we do ...

Yes, but do you remember being told we are headed toward a 20-hour work week?

Technology sure is great, eh?!

[GrumpyPlumber]

Yes, but do you remember being told we are headed toward a 20-hour work week?

Technology sure is great, eh?!

They're coming out with a new automated robotic plumber soon.....

No, they're not.

[billsnogo]

So what happened? I NEED closure! :eek: :p

[GrumpyPlumber]

So what happened? I NEED closure! :eek: :p

NO KIDDIN'!!
Caasss??

[leejosepho]

The final chapter will be posted tonight ...

Patience, fellas. There is a bar near Key West that has a very large sign on the side of the building:

FREE BEER TOMORROW

[GrumpyPlumber]

Patience, fellas. There is a bar near Key West that has a very large sign on the side of the building:

FREE BEER TOMORROW


I just think Cass is messin' with us....ggggrrrr