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View Full Version : CI Flange 1/2 " below sub-floor



molo
06-28-2007, 06:42 AM
Hello All,

The CI flange is 1/2" below the sub-floor. What is the best wax ring(s) to use?

TIA,
Molo

jadnashua
06-28-2007, 07:10 AM
I'd use a waxless adapter - Fluidmaster makes one, and there are others.

You know, the better thing would be to reset the flange to where it is supposed to be. An alternative might be to add one or more flange extenders to raise it to the proper level, then use a conventional wax ring.

Having a deep wax seal isn't as strong as when done with a flange at the proper level. The waxless systems rely on O-rings to make the seal. I've used both, and have not had problems with the waxless. They cost more, but are a real benefit during remodeling when the toilet may be removed periodically.

molo
06-30-2007, 07:01 PM
I went out and bought the adapter, and attempted to place the adapter over the CI Flange. The diameter of the adapter opening is around 1/16" -1/8" to small! The CI flange has a lip and if the adapter opening were just a bit bigger it would slide right over! If anyone has experience with this, please let me know!

TIAm
Molo

markts30
06-30-2007, 08:25 PM
Do you have access to the pipe below the floor?
you can cut the cast iron and replace it with PVC or ABS...
If not, a good plumber could remove the flange and lead and oakum a new one in place in short order....

molo
07-01-2007, 07:28 PM
Here are some photos. The screwdriver is pointing to the ring on the Cast Iron flange that is preventing (just barely) the plastic extension from comfortably sliding over it and sitting down no the flat part of the CI flange.
Any ideas are welcome.

TIA,
Molo

Verdeboy
07-02-2007, 09:45 AM
Options:

Grind down the protruding lip of the CI flange with an angle grinder.
Use a dremel with router bit to route out the inside of the plastic flange extenders.
Use 2 wax rings.
Cut out old flange and replace with PVC flange set on top of the finished floor.

Cass
07-02-2007, 09:55 AM
You can get a PVC flange that has an extension that will go over what you have there and into the old cast with either an expandable gasket or one that is stationary and slides into the pipe tight. Be sure the cast is supported if the run is long.

The Cast should have been cut and replaced with PVC, sticking up so the sub floor and finished floor were such that when the flange was installed it sat on the finished floor.

hj
07-02-2007, 05:44 PM
The Cast should have been cut and replaced with PVC, sticking up so the sub floor and finished floor were such that when the flange was installed it sat on the finished floor

A rather Draconian suggestion. Just break the flange off and lead/oakum a new one on after the floor is finished. A very, very simple job for a plumber.

GrumpyPlumber
07-02-2007, 06:32 PM
The Cast should have been cut and replaced with PVC, sticking up so the sub floor and finished floor were such that when the flange was installed it sat on the finished floor

A rather Draconian suggestion. Just break the flange off and lead/oakum a new one on after the floor is finished. A very, very simple job for a plumber.


Thats what I was gonna say...be sure it's a 4" hub on the CI flange.
Either heat and pry it up or drill to remove old lead...you know the "drill".

molo
07-02-2007, 07:15 PM
Thanks for the input,

I like the idea of repacing with a new CI flange. I'm wondering about the PVC flange as well, where and how do you cut the cast? to put a PVC flange on? Also, someone suggested a PVC flange that sits on top of the CI flange and has a rubber extension that gets fitted tightly to the inside walls of the CI, (I'm assuming this is like the drain assembly that I used when I had to put a new shower drain in without acces to the bottom of it).
There are a few options discussed here, one suggestion was as simple as going with two wax rings.
All of these options have forced me to really question what exactly is the proper function/use of the flange. Does the flange be on top of the subfloor? Do you rely on it for structural strength? In the box framing repair I did underneath this floor I provided 2 x 4 box underneath the flange so that I could screw the flange to it. Is this not enough? I would really like somde good info on flange use and the function of the flange. It does surprise me that there are only two bolts holding most toilets to the floor, and they are towards the center of the toilet. It seems there should be attaching mechanisms around the outside perimiter of the bowl. Somebody please steer me in the right direction with flange function and use, as well as toilet stability.

Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read this and is even considering responding,
TIA,
Molo

jadnashua
07-03-2007, 07:35 AM
The toilet base has a fairly large area, so anchoring it in the middle works pretty well. Adding some caulk around the outer rim also helps anchor it in place and helps you keep it more sanitary since "stuff" can't seep underneath the toilet.

molo
07-03-2007, 07:06 PM
Thaks Jad,
I would still like to know what some of you pros think about this? Is it a design flaw that most toilets don't have a means to secure the perimiter of the bowl to the subfloor? It seems to easy for a big person, or a wild college couple, to rock one off and break whatever wax seal is there.

What do you folks think, Is this a common sense thing that is being overlooked?

Molo

frenchie
07-03-2007, 11:57 PM
I've always thought the connection was under-specced... but that's just me being paranoid. They've been working fine, for a long, long, time.

I have to disagree with Jadnashua about the caulk: that'd create a problem for the person who has to pull the toilet later. Part of the reason for the wax ring seal is that you can pull the toilet relatively easily...

Also - caulk works both ways, so if there was a leak it couldn't find a way out.

One reason you want the only connection to be @ the flange, is so that if something goes wrong, you'll know about it; additional fastening might conceal problems.

Cass
07-04-2007, 04:43 AM
Caulking a toilet down is a funny subject.

In Some jurisdictions it is mandatory, some want it all the way around others the back stays open and in places like here there is no requirement either way or at all.

There are pros and cons to doing it or not.

jadnashua
07-04-2007, 06:34 AM
Most places seem to want it open in the back. Consider the little guys who miss...guess where it goes, under the toilet. Guess what you have to do to clean it out, tear out the toilet. Do that more than a few times, and you'll see the benefit of the caulk. How often do you remove a toilet? Unless you have a structural problem, it only happens when you remodel. Having a little trouble getting it out seems like a small price to pay once every 10-20 years...

Cass
07-04-2007, 07:04 AM
A rather Draconian suggestion.

Why would replacing old cast during a project where new joice's and new sub and finish floor was being installed be "draconian"?

I would think it prudent.

I try and replace as much old cast as possible when ever the situation presents it's self and is feasible.

Replacing the CI flange with another CI flange is an option.

Reguardless there is no sub floor for the cast or plastic to sit on.

molo
07-05-2007, 09:00 PM
How would I have done this if I wanted to replace the cast and raise it the 1" i would have needed to get it above the subfloor? That's what I'll do next time!

TIA,
Molo

Verdeboy
07-05-2007, 09:11 PM
Why would replacing old cast during a project where new joice's and new sub and finish floor was being installed be "draconian"?
I would think it prudent.
I think HJ was being facetious.

Regarding caulking around the base of a toilet:

IMHO, it is essential to do this for an upstairs bathroom. That way, if a toilet or tub overflows, the water will be less likely to go through to the room below.

GrumpyPlumber
07-05-2007, 10:51 PM
"Notes on job: week one, still working on decision as to what to do about CI flange"

molo
07-06-2007, 06:04 AM
Note to Grumpy; Still Learning; In No Hurry.

"How would I have done this if I wanted to replace the cast and raise it the 1" i would have needed to get it above the subfloor? That's what I'll do next time!" NEXT TIME, Means NOT THIS TIME


I guess you didn't have time to answer the question, that's too bad. Perhaps somebody else can tell me about cutting and raising a CI Flange.

GrumpyPlumber
07-06-2007, 06:49 AM
Note to Grumpy; Still Learning; In No Hurry.

"How would I have done this if I wanted to replace the cast and raise it the 1" i would have needed to get it above the subfloor? That's what I'll do next time!" NEXT TIME, Means NOT THIS TIME


I guess you didn't have time to answer the question, that's too bad. Perhaps somebody else can tell me about cutting and raising a CI Flange.


Molo..just kidding...couldn't resist.
Mind you...the following is not an easy task...plumbers "territory" here.
IF you really wanna do this right....get a drill, drill into the lead in the seam of the flange, then take something thin like a small screwdriver and pull it upwards, once you get a "bite sized piece" up you can grab it with channel locks and pull.
You'll likely only get small pieces at a time, but slow and sure it comes out.
Below that is the oakum...it's easier...use the screwdriver and pick it out.
Then put a new cast iron flange with a 4" hub in place, (they come with 2" hubs, but your pipe is already too low, based on the fact that the existing flange is below the floor.
brace it by either bolting, or screwing a piece of strapping to the top surface of the flange, with shims between the strapping and floor to hold it to the height you want it at.
Then wrap new oakum around the pipe at least 3-4 times, each time you go around once, pack it down mindfull not to be pushing the oakum past the bottom of the hub.
Remember the OAKUM makes the seal NOT the lead!
You will continue wrapping/packing until you have a 1" gap to the top of the pipe, being sure to push any stray strands of oakum into the hub and out of the way.
Finally, the "fun" part...you'll need a ladle, torch and 5 lbs of lead (plumbing supplier).
Find somewhere safe to sit the lead where it can't drip and melt/burn anything below, take the ladle and put it directly under the lead and position your torch so that it points down into the ladle as it melts the lead...you want to keep the ladle hot as well as the lead (glove on hand holding ladle).
once your ladle is full (NOT half...you want at least enough to fill that gap in the flange) pour it in.
Then you pack the lead all around the circumference of both the inner and out edges with a "packing iron"...technically you should have two seperate irons that are sized with a radius to each, but most of us plumbers only use one.(sins to confess...one day).
If this seems like alot, go with the flange extensions other members have suggested above.

GrumpyPlumber
07-06-2007, 06:52 AM
One last thing...CAREFUL!
Don't get any lead into the drain...it's heavy and often creates clogs ...put a "dollar plug" in the drain opening before you pour.

molo
07-06-2007, 07:18 AM
It seems you've come around from your fit of sarcastic degradation, taken the time to give me a detailed explanation, and also confused me a bit. Is the strapping temporary? I have an old timer nearby who owns a plumbnig supply house. That's where I would get the material to do this kind of work. He has shown me his lead/oakum tools, and told me about when he did lead and oakum joints on 24" diameter pipe for the local college. He still has old lead water pipes laying around in his shop. He's a good resource, but I like to have some idea about what I'm talking about before I go into the shop.

TIA,
Molo

jadnashua
07-06-2007, 12:21 PM
The strapping is temporary to hold the flange where you want it while you make up the joint. Now, if your finished floor is done and you left enough room around the pipe, you should be able to just set the flange down on the finished floor and no strapping would be required. Then, add the oakum and lead. Keep in mind, the best place for the flange is on top of the finished floor, and anchored through it into the subflooring.

GrumpyPlumber
07-06-2007, 05:57 PM
It seems you've come around from your fit of sarcastic degradation, taken the time to give me a detailed explanation, and also confused me a bit. Is the strapping temporary? I have an old timer nearby who owns a plumbnig supply house. That's where I would get the material to do this kind of work. He has shown me his lead/oakum tools, and told me about when he did lead and oakum joints on 24" diameter pipe for the local college. He still has old lead water pipes laying around in his shop. He's a good resource, but I like to have some idea about what I'm talking about before I go into the shop.

TIA,
Molo


Molo...you just have to know me...I have a dry sense of humor, you can't be oversensitive.
"degradation" is a bit strong of a word..it was a joke...feel free to throw one back at me..I'll laugh, (I'm ugly, my mommy dresses me funny) think as if you're "one of the boys" on a construction site.
As far as getting the stock, your oldtimer friend will be perfect...just tell him you need the things I listed and you're off to the races.
Also, Jadnashua hit a point I missed earlier...you're looking to get the flange to a height where it rests on the finish floor, so if the finish floor is already down...just rest it in place.

molo
07-06-2007, 08:09 PM
No problem Grumpy, "degradation" was a bit of that dry humor, if I may. I've read several of your posts, and you are definitely a good addition to this forum.
Please let me share my approach to most projects and my thoughts on this forum; I often have several projects going at once! Not for other people, but for myself. Often times there is no sense of urgency, because I have alternative systems in place (other toilets, bathroom sinks, heater, lights, etc). This lack of absolute neccesity is a true luxury, it grants me the time to think through a project and it's components. This forum is a wonderful collaborative resource that helps me to learn alot, such as what methods, techniques, and materials to use. I really enjoy comparing and contrasting methods, and the collaboration that a site like this offers. I don't mind a project lasting 2-4 weeks, while I read and research! Often times my reading leads to more questions, such as the ones that I posted earlier in this thread about flange purpose, and the design/engineering behind the toilet to floor connection, and wondering what is the best way to secure a toilet for worst case scenarios (drunk guy doing a jig on the water closet) there wasn't a huge discussion of toilet stability, but I won't stop trying to learn more about it.
This forum is a valuable resource. A currently active thread that I'm following is MasterPlumberMarks "tankless experiment". This is being done in the spirit of learning, in an unbiased setting, very much like true research and development is meant to be done. Posts like this one are very valuable. This is what seperates the developed nations from the ones who are still burning open fires in their huts without proper places for the smoke to escape. When people take the time to consider, compare, contrast, and collaborate, amazing things can happen. And so I will continue to read, ask questions, ask some more questions, then read some more, and contribute what I can where I can.... and someday I might be able to pour piss out of a boot that has a hole in the toe and directions on the heel! Amongst other things...

Molo

GrumpyPlumber
07-07-2007, 05:32 AM
"Master Plumber Mark: Notes on tankless experiment...6 months to decide on where to install it....6 months to decide on what size....6 months to convince wife..."
See Molo?
It's humor...a lil' ribbing makes it fun (IF he'd just install the thing already!)

frenchie
07-07-2007, 11:06 AM
Bah, Grumpy - Molo was busy doing his wiring this week!

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14027

Let's admit it: we're just jealous.

Don't you wish your projects had no deadlines? I know I often do...

GrumpyPlumber
07-07-2007, 07:21 PM
Bah, Grumpy - Molo was busy doing his wiring this week!

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14027

Let's admit it: we're just jealous.

Don't you wish your projects had no deadlines? I know I often do...

Excuses...excuses

molo
07-09-2007, 05:56 PM
OK, IF I go with the extension ring in the original photo, Do I put wax between it and the CI? As for CI flange support I do have 2 x 4 bracing underneath it.

TIA,
Molo

P.S. Hi Grumpster :cool:

GrumpyPlumber
07-09-2007, 08:25 PM
OK, IF I go with the extension ring in the original photo, Do I put wax between it and the CI? As for CI flange support I do have 2 x 4 bracing underneath it.

TIA,
Molo

P.S. Hi Grumpster :cool:

Wouldn't hurt, but If ya don't get this done soon we're gonna cut yer pay!

molo
07-10-2007, 06:04 AM
Wouldn't hurt, but If ya don't get this done soon we're gonna cut yer pay!


I don't care about the pay, I gotta go!