One for the books

[GrumpyPlumber]

Got a call for a serious leak inside a ceiling.
The new homeowner had decided to open the ceiling to find it, the house is beautiful.
He'd come to the correct conclusion that it was the toilet, but there were no outward signs of anything there that could be leaking.

Upstairs the toilet was set like a sideways rocking chair, despite the excellent job on the finish, it was fully mobile.

The previous homeowner had apparently cut the johnny bolts too short and sacrificed the metal washers to make room for the plastic clips to grab the finish caps (my guess), in other words, the toilet was anchored to the floor with plastic washers.
I felt awful, even cut my price...asked him to please call me if something like this comes up again...BEFORE opening anything.

[kordts]

How about a toilet anchored to the floor of a teachers lounge bathroom by the Sloan valve? I just had a job yesterday where a DIYer installed all the plumbing in his new construction home. The shower leaked thru the ceiling. I discovered the previous brain sturgeon used the rubber washer for the shower drain under the flange, instead of putty, and nothing on the locknut. Then to make it worse, he put all kinds of backing where it wasn't needed; to make it all but impossible for me to repair it without major ceiling removal. I got it though. His dad was there to let me in, and I made a friend for life. He thought I would have to destroy the ceiling in order to save it. My mad skilz amazed him.

[frenchie]

Now, now, boys...

It's a DIY site. Play nice.








Hya, Kordst! Remember me? I have a picture for you, check it out...

Which one do you think was done by a licensed plumber, and which one do you think was by the caretaker?

[GrumpyPlumber]

OOPH!.. My uncle is a retired architect...told me once he'd gotten a call that something went very wrong on a commercial job and they wanted him to go out and see it.
After looking it over it turns out the apprentice ( I hope it was the apprentice) had used plastic anchors in drywall to secure wall mount lavs in a full battery of six.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Now, now, boys...

It's a DIY site. Play nice.

Hya, Kordst! Remember me? I have a picture for you, check it out...

Which one do you think was done by a licensed plumber, and which one do you think was by the caretaker?

It's the new, code approved flexable vent pipe...isn't it?...right?

We're playing nice...for the record maybe someone just saw that about toilets and learned what NOT to do...(I really do hate getting those ones, almost like I'm guilty for getting paid)

[frenchie]

Nothing against you, bro. The thread just seemed to be hading in a not-nice direction, I wanted to cut that off...

I do know what you mean, about feeling guilty taking the check; just remember, it's not your fault. It's not even his fault, really - who would've expected that?

Although you have to wonder how he never noticed the toilet was loose... do they never use that bathroom, or what?


...speaking of vent pipes... that run isn't vented, either. We're rebuilding the place next year, so for now I just oversized the pipe.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Frenchie, I didn't see anything offensive in what you said...the title of the thread was intended as a recount of bad experiences.
I understand this is a DIY forum, but I don't think we have to be so sensitive that it becomes taboo to mention jobs gone bad...I hope.
I also know we don't want to go off on insultive tangents either, not my intention.

[Verdeboy]

Did I ever mention the c-tile job I had where, underneath the tiles, someone had used newspaper as a backerboard. :eek:

I was hoping to read a nice old news story, but the paper had disintegrated and looked more like compost than anything else.

[Alectrician]

I was at a job last month and the LICENCED plumber had to relocate a 3" waste pipe from an upstairs toilet because they were removing the dropped ceiling in the kitchen below it.

He cut out the pipe and the homeowner promptly took a dump and flushed a turd into the kitchen where everyone was working.

I was on a job a few years ago where the plumber removed the toilet and set it out of the way in the corner of the bedrom. You guessed it. One of the workers took a dump in it.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Alectrician, this one doesn't trump yours by any stretch..
I'd just cut out the 7-1/2" piece of cast iron on the stack to add a tee....kid upstairs decides to skip a trip to the Port-a-Johnny and remove the cover on the closet flange...yup.
He got me a coffee at lunch, I finally had to ask him to "stop apologizing already!"

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Get a call from a real estate agent needing a plumber for a client in town who's selling their house. After numerous phone tags I arrive at the house to a ceiling leak. It's a drop ceiling so access to the source was fairly simple.

I take the first soaked panel down, no problem. I take the second panel down,

two HUGE rocks were on top of this panel, one fell off and smashed the top ledge of the fiberglass tub. Put a hole in it 4" wide. :eek:


It's resting spot was in the tub itself....the customer saw it happen but my body hid the massive hole that just went into the ledge. I "instantly" grabbed that rock and took the shower liner and pulled it outside the tub and covered the opening from wall to wall.

I'll be damned if I'm paying for that nonsense; what was two big rocks doing up in the ceiling? She's selling the house so I say someone's going to be doing fiberglass repair for a blue tub. Damn.

The leak was a PEX toilet supply line leaking. Another thank you to plastic piping and fittings.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Which one do you think was done by a licensed plumber, and which one do you think was by the caretaker?


I wish they would change the code on all kitchen sink drains AND any drain subjected to large volumes of hot waste water be strapped every 2'....not the normal support of 4' for PVC.


I have seen too many kitchen sink drains in 1.5" strapped every 4 feet that just completely sags between the straps....all because the dishwasher dumps into that line a great deal.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I wish they would change the code on all kitchen sink drains AND any drain subjected to large volumes of hot waste water be strapped every 2'....not the normal support of 4' for PVC.


I have seen too many kitchen sink drains in 1.5" strapped every 4 feet that just completely sags between the straps....all because the dishwasher dumps into that line a great deal.

Gotta love a good plenum though...
Rugged...I'm PSYCHED you found this thread, I've worked plenty with old time plumbers...even one that had that old WW2 depression era mentality...He'd say "NEVER waste fittings" (back then they were worth more than you were), He knew how to wipe a joint in his sleep.
I'm going to wager you have some KILLER stories..
The rock one was funny (I could just vision you standing there hoping she wouldn't move in closer).
I bet you have some hilarious ones...go ahead...drop us.

[Cass]

Get a call from a real estate agent needing a plumber for a client in town who's selling their house. After numerous phone tags I arrive at the house to a ceiling leak. It's a drop ceiling so access to the source was fairly simple.

I take the first soaked panel down, no problem. I take the second panel down,

two HUGE rocks were on top of this panel, one fell off and smashed the top ledge of the fiberglass tub. Put a hole in it 4" wide. :eek:


It's resting spot was in the tub itself....the customer saw it happen but my body hid the massive hole that just went into the ledge. I "instantly" grabbed that rock and took the shower liner and pulled it outside the tub and covered the opening from wall to wall.

I'll be damned if I'm paying for that nonsense; wtf was two big rocks doing up in the ceiling? She's selling the house so I say someone's going to be doing fiberglass repair for a blue tub. Damn.

The leak was a PEX toilet supply line leaking. Another thank you to plastic piping and fittings.

Why in the world did you hide the damage??????

Obviously it would not have been your fault, but hiding it.

Now you look guilty even though your not.

What was the type of crimp system copper or stainless and was it crimped wrong?

[GrumpyPlumber]

[U][I][B]
What was the type of crimp system copper or stainless and was it crimped wrong?

Lemme' guess, his reply: "it's NOT copper!"

[Dunbar Plumbing]

:mad: She saw the whole thing happen, she had to know it hit the tub. This woman was hustling me from the word go, even when I got there. The short tempered type that always interrupts you when you're talking. I purposely lowered my rate knowing I wasn't going to be there long and I didn't want a confrontation with her. *For the record, I normally won't even consider dealing with real estate agents and their clientell since they never "cling" as repeat customers*

This lady was definitely capable of putting me in a catch 22 and saying that the hole wasn't there before you got there and now there is! Shouldn't have rocks out of your driveway in your ceiling lady. :mad:




The PEX line was one of those gray cheapo 38 cent toilet supply lines. The person who put it in strained it into position and naturally it started cracking right where the nut holds it to the fill valve shank.



I've worked plenty with old time plumbers...even one that had that old WW2 depression era mentality...He'd say "NEVER waste fittings" (back then they were worth more than you were), He knew how to wipe a joint in his sleep.


That was when the TRUE plumbers existed. Where skill in the trade was tops and you really had to know your skills of the profession to make a living.

Now, a glue connection here a push-fit sharkbite there, crimp this and compression tighten that, off you go. Plastic was the downfall of the profession of plumbing in so many ways. That point can be argued to death but the reality is less knowledge is needed to perform the task of plumbing.......whereby that makes the average person more capable of doing plumbing without following the implied knowledge the trade is really worth.

[kordts]

I don't recall ya. I would guess that a licensed plumber did the hack job and a DIYer of some sort did the other. Just because a guy has a license doesn't mean he is a good plumber. Bad licensed plumbers are more of a threat to my trades' future than unlicensed DIYer's.

[Cass]

:mad: She saw the whole thing happen, she had to know it hit the tub. This woman was hustling me from the word go, even when I got there. The short tempered type that always interrupts you when you're talking. I purposely lowered my rate knowing I wasn't going to be there long and I didn't want a confrontation with her. *For the record, I normally won't even consider dealing with real estate agents and their clientell since they never "cling" as repeat customers*

This lady was definitely capable of putting me in a catch 22 and saying that the hole wasn't there before you got there and now there is! Shouldn't have rocks out of your driveway in your ceiling lady. :mad:




The PEX line was one of those gray cheapo 38 cent toilet supply lines. The person who put it in strained it into position and naturally it started cracking right where the nut holds it to the fill valve shank.


That was when the TRUE plumbers existed.

Sorry but I disagree, A TRUE plumber would have pointed out the hole and made sure the lady and the Realtor saw the rock and new it came from the ceiling and that the plumber was in no way responsible for rocks hidden in a ceiling tile.

I believe that would have been the professional thing to do regardless of what ever was to follow.

I guess from the description the supply line was an old PB type. Not the newer PEX.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Sorry but I disagree, A TRUE plumber would have pointed out the hole and made sure the lady and the Realtor saw the rock and new it came from the ceiling and that the plumber was in no way responsible for rocks hidden in a ceiling tile.

I believe that would have been the professional thing to do regardless of what ever was to follow.

I guess from the description the supply line was an old PB type. Not the newer PEX.


Cass, I use those PEX or, "poly risers" alot inside vanities ot KS's- the light grey colored ones (beleive it or not I really do and YUP, they're legal)..they can be deceptively easy to use, you crank 'em about the same amount you would regular copper and it seems fine....then. 15 minutes later the line blows out of the ferril. Trick is you have to bottom out the comp nut or they can develope delayed leaks.

Speaking of "One for the books"...Co I used to work for got a call from a GC.
Apparently this had happened, on a friday right after the new homeowner had taken off for the weekend. The licensed plumber had the apprentice tying in finish and didn't go over his work.
It gushed ALL weekend from the 2nd floor down...ugly hit on his liability policy.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Sorry but I disagree

Not a problem. I'll let my reputation in the biz serve as the rule and not the exception. If you experienced how this customer was acting, the slightest hint of surprise or discovery would of sent her off the edge. To her benefit of reason, she might not always be this way "normally" and the fact she's paying 2 mortgages while this house sells must be taking a toll financially as well as emotionally. She had to sell due to health reasons, she said she didn't have plumbing problems all those years until she moved out.


Thus the reason for not charging full amount for my time. Very impatient on every move I make. It's a discovery that if she calls me out on it....I'll tell her that "maybe when that rock fell out of the ceiling, that's when it happened." and let her vent from a distance, not in front of me trying to browbeat me out of not getting paid. < That's not going to happen on my dime, ever.


As far as putting two and two together to figure out why rocks were in the ceiling? Possibly getting a bow out of the tile or trying to get the ceiling panels to lay flat in the grids. I can't come up with anything else that would apply.

[Verdeboy]

As far as putting two and two together to figure out why rocks were in the ceiling? Possibly getting a bow out of the tile or trying to get the ceiling panels to lay flat in the grids. I can't come up with anything else that would apply.

You left out the most obvious reason: It was a set up job. Anyone out there trying to get you?

Seriously, though, I expect that kind of stuff in SW NM. Here they throw old tires on the roof to fix a roof leak.

I think if that happened to me, I'd be laughing my ass off. I always carry a camera around, so I'd snap off a few pictures of the hole and the rocks before I took off.

[Gary Slusser]

I'll be damned if I'm paying for that nonsense; wtf was two big rocks doing up in the ceiling?
Possession is 9/10ths of the law and you found the rocks, yep they'll be classified as your rocks. And then you HIDE the damage as she watches. Kinda like you were stuck in stupid! Wait 'til the attorney hears about this!!

I've told you before, the only thing to fear is fear itself. Now ya did it and you think it's OK as long as you don't get caught....

I think the leak was with the gray PVC risers, not PEX.

[master plumber mark]

in my old home I got a couple of ceiling tiles
that I got a brick holding down the corner......


I suppose some day some poor s.o.b is going to
drop it on his foot or head........

you were not going to win no matter what you did ,

so its best to just sweep it under the rug and hope for the best.

[GrumpyPlumber]

OK, good story for anyone who thinks plumbers are money hungry.
Today I get a call from a referral, from a regular that has given me alot of business.
Old customers co-worker has several plumbing items in need of repair, I agreed to stop by on the way home from my last job.
They're french, and apparently unfamiliar with dishwashers(?).
There was a leak on the DW, and he told me she said it was constant...so to me it sounded like it could be the feed (if not, it'd be an appliance repair guy thing), I take a look and ..nothing.
I ask her to run it...nothing. Questions occurs to me..I ask..."what did you use for detergent?"
YUP...regular dish detergent...problem solved.
Next, batch feed disposal not working...we take a look, and sure enough it doesn't.
I notice something on the wall in the corner...a switch...YUP you guessed it...was off. ...problem solved.
The husband, with silly grin, says...I feel like we're wasting your time...I have one more item..."
Downstairs there was a slow drip...from a packing nut on a shut-off.
Problem solved. (with his channel locks...saved me the trip to my truck)
I was there all of 15 minutes.
Gave them my buz card, smiled and said "It's on the house, as long as you promise to call when you REALLY need a plumber."
The mrs tried to get me to take a "tip"...had to outrun her to my truck.
Told her "No tipping ma'am...the boss doesn't allow it."

[Terry]

We allow tips.
Jamie got a $40.00 tip this last week.

I worked on a job, installed two toilets and got an $80.00 tip.
What's wrong with taking tips?
It just means they liked the service.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Same here. I get food, tools, money, items they no longer want and only take with discretion. Some people enjoy making a home cooked meal for me to take home. I think they do it solely because I'm the boss and not just an employee of the company.

I did a turnaround back to 10 of my best paying/best talking customers tonight; I sponsor the local town's fireworks celebration every year and I get 10 VIP passes to front row seats to the fireworks with indoor event and eating. Didn't cost me anything and I'm sure that my customers really enjoyed their evening. The weather was perfect for the event.

[Cass]

Tips, Oh ya I'll take them any time.

Like Terry, my son was helping me do a sewer line where the C/O was under a set of stairs, it was Thanksgiving AM also and they gave him a $20.00 tip.

O.K. by me.

Under the circumstances where you were doing the job gratis I might not have taken it.

[kordts]

My best tip was on an electric water heater installation. I made out the invoice for 700 bucks, the homeowner gave me 8 one hundred dollar bills.

[GrumpyPlumber]

We allow tips.
Jamie got a $40.00 tip this last week.

I worked on a job, installed two toilets and got an $80.00 tip.
What's wrong with taking tips?
It just means they liked the service.

I know, but I'd had a good day, and this was a referral from someone who gives me regular business.
I went with my gut on this one (and wanted to get the heck home...saturday night) I imagine if they heard about me through a co-worker, then this helps..who knows, maybe my name comes up at the water cooler...word of mouth makes a full size yellow page ad look like a flyer on a telephone pole.
I can guarantee they'll have my card in hand when they decide to do some upgrading on the new home.
Ironically the job before that threw an extra 50 in the check, also a regular (he threatened to call the BBB if I refused it, with a smile).
I buy into an expression Jay Leno once coined..."Losing the battle, winning the war."
I do almost no advertizing, business is good.
That $20-$30 tip I lost last night made up for a 2K ad in the yellow pages, as I see it.
Of course, there are people who don't seem to realize when you're bending over backwards, I get burned, par for the course...as I see it.
The people who remember a good deed are the people I want as regulars.

[GrumpyPlumber]

My best tip was on an electric water heater installation. I made out the invoice for 700 bucks, the homeowner gave me 8 one hundred dollar bills.


I had a guy throw me an extra 300 after a full house remodel.
I bent over nackwards to schedule at his convenience, he said "this'll maybe make up for all the coffee you brought me". He's now a regular customer, we call eachother on occasion just to chat, or I stop by when in the area.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Wrapped up a boiler this week..on inspection the inspector informed me there was a new local ordinance the requires the vent to be 6" higher than state code.
It was no biggy...just a simple add-on of two 90's.
I've done two boilers in the past month and had priced around, theres a supplier I frequent thats less than 5 minutes away from this boiler that I'd called for prices on both...so I originally figured I'd use them for this particular boiler purchase.
They priced it and I was surprized...there was a several hundred dollar price increase for the same model I'd priced at another supplier..I went to the best price.
Narurally I went to the supplier closest for the 2 S.S. 90's, and sure enough it was the fella I'd priced the boiler with...as soon as I placed the order he looks at me with a smirk and says "You still want the boiler to go with these?".

[Cass]

Cass, I use those PEX or, "poly risers" alot inside vanities ot KS's- the light grey colored ones (beleive it or not I really do and YUP, they're legal)..they can be deceptively easy to use, you crank 'em about the same amount you would regular copper and it seems fine....then. 15 minutes later the line blows out of the ferril. Trick is you have to bottom out the comp nut or they can develope delayed leaks.

Yup that is the only way to use them and I had a plumber friend flood an older ranch doing the same thing....not tightening them down enough. Now I just use the braided stainless supply lines. The price difference is not enough to bother using the polly lines... maybe $1.50 each so if I replaced them on a kitchen and 2 bathrooms were talking 9-$12.00 additional which won't make or break a job. Now if your doing new work X 300 homes your talking $3600.00. The type I hate are the ones that are 1 piece, push on non removeable plastic stop and supply line push/pull on/off because you have to cut the copper to replace them and I have had to replace several that have developed leaks at the O ring. I see them in houses that are in the $800,000.00 range all the time and the leaks often ruin hardwood floors as the customers only notice when the floor starts to turn black.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Oddly enough, a larger job is the last place I'd use...for the simple fact that you'd likely have newbie's using them.
I only use them because I'm the one doing it.
Company I used to work for uses them and nothing but...and I'd seen at least one blow out in a year...all it takes is one and the savings is shot, not just on insurance premiums, but customer trust.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Landed about $1200 worth of plumbing repairs on the house the seller is now living in, I also tied a prospective buyer which has a contract to buy on the house I worked in. I knew of someone that was in hairstyling and this house has a full setup with hair sinks and chairs, mirrors and anything you'd need for a in-home business.

I need to start carrying big rocks on my truck for future employment.:eek:

[GrumpyPlumber]

Landed about $1200 worth of plumbing repairs on the house the seller is now living in, I also tied a prospective buyer which has a contract to buy on the house I worked in. I knew of someone that was in hairstyling and this house has a full setup with hair sinks and chairs, mirrors and anything you'd need for a in-home business.

I need to start carrying big rocks on my truck for future employment.:eek:


Geesh......my luck I'd have been in "insurance red tape hell" for months.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Yep. I found out why this woman was so impatient and so short-tempered with me that day as well; a plumber before me came in there and told her that she needed to replace all the drain lines under that ceiling. He "may" not of known the PEX supply line was leaking but being thorough I found the source of the leak.

Once again, honesty paid off. Maybe the last plumber put the rocks in the ceiling thinking he'd nail the next plumber. :confused:

[billsnogo]

Which one do you think was done by a licensed plumber, and which one do you think was by the caretaker?
Code here is the drain for the kitchen sink must be supported continuously, and now I see why! I love those pics :D

[Cass]

A fiery auto crash in July near Augusta, Ga., had killed the driver and would likely kill the passenger, too, if the fire were not immediately smothered. Firefighters were still minutes away, but passing by was a pump truck from a local plumbing company, whose quick-thinking driver extinguished the flames with 1,500 gallons of raw sewage from a septic tank-cleaning job he had just finished. [WJBF-TV (Augusta), 7-9-07]

[GrumpyPlumber]

WOW!
That really is one for the books.

[Marlin336]

Get a call from a real estate agent needing a plumber for a client in town who's selling their house. After numerous phone tags I arrive at the house to a ceiling leak. It's a drop ceiling so access to the source was fairly simple.

I take the first soaked panel down, no problem. I take the second panel down,

two HUGE rocks were on top of this panel, one fell off and smashed the top ledge of the fiberglass tub. Put a hole in it 4" wide. :eek:


I had something similar happen to me. I was doing the bathroom in my own house and was in the basement working. I push on a 2in black pipe for some reason and two bricks fall down almost taking out my head. Apparently instead of using another strap the only strapped one pipe and wedged bricks between it and the one above it. Also had two large 1"x15"x1/4 straps of some sort fall on me that were resting on the pipes. I guess they misplaced those straps and used bricks instead.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I guess they misplaced those straps and used bricks instead.


It's amazing how some people will do something dangerous before they'll actually reach for their pocket and spend a dime to make it safe. :mad:


Here's one for the books.


Today, up in Cincinnati, 2 story 2 family......shouldn't be there to begin with but that's another story.

Clogged second floor kitchen sink. Run my cable, opens up at 34 feet, great! I clean up everything and get that stainless steel looking like new.

Go downstairs towards the basement, hear water cascading. < Not good but I as an optimist think "Great, busted pipe! More work!"

Not exactly. The first floor was vacant, I open the door to this downstairs kitchen and the entire floor, the kitchen cabinet doors popped open, black sludge in the double sink, sludge on the cabinet walls like there was an explosion.

Son of a *****!!!! I walk in there, throw my bag of tools up on the counter in an angered fashion, the entire end outlet waste blows off sending even more black sludge and wastewater all over my legs/feet because I'm right in front of the cabinet now. Now I'm pissed.....hook that end outlet waste up so I can use my cable machine top down through the basket strainer so I can have hyrdropressure against the clog and sure enough, blow a hole through the plastic trap......and I just reworked this drain 2 months earlier.

This by no means is not the first time this has happened to me with a clog moving and stopping at a lower elevation.....it has happened many times in my years as a plumber.

It's friday, I've worked way too many hours this week and then this happened. I got it open, cleaned up the kitchen floor "within reason" even though it took 2 towels and 3 rolls of paper towels, it still needs to be thoroughly cleaned again along with the entire basement.

When I talk to this property owner that lives in the 937 area code....I'm going to push hard to see if he'll let me run that stack in 2" along with busting up that concrete floor at the base and get rid of that constriction like they all are where smaller pipe increases to larger.

There is no way I could of controlled that situation short of putting towels and rocks in the double bowl sink.....but then the tubular piping underneath would of blown apart anyway.....and a lot sooner. :mad:


Therapy is needed at this time.

[cwhyu2]

Lots of theripe Typing with ohe hand still.

[BAPlumber]

:That was when the TRUE plumbers existed. Where skill in the trade was tops and you really had to know your skills of the profession to make a living.

Now, a glue connection here a push-fit sharkbite there, crimp this and compression tighten that, off you go. Plastic was the downfall of the profession of plumbing in so many ways. That point can be argued to death but the reality is less knowledge is needed to perform the task of plumbing.......whereby that makes the average person more capable of doing plumbing without following the implied knowledge the trade is really worth.

I don't believe that less knowledge is the downfall of plumbing. The average can put pipe together but, can they plumb? A Plumber is responsible for the health and safety of the public. Is the home owner?

I also believe that the plumbing systems in the past were inferior. the ability to install them were, I consider, brilliant. most plumbers today can't do half of what they did. They also didn't have the codes we now have. I won't say we are better technically today, but I will say we are probably better health wise.

[Cass]

I also believe that the plumbing systems in the past were inferior.


Can you expand on that?

[Marlin336]

Can you expand on that?
The only example I can think of is galvanized piping. Unless you start getting into polybutylene and other short lived experimental systems.

[Cass]

Ah...your talking materials...OK.

[GrumpyPlumber]

In terms of Materials...
I worked commercial plumbing before going to a residential shop.
Commercial is all cast iron, copper & hard piping.
On a residential bathroom group the 3" under the floor is in tight spaces, you have to consider all three dimensions and incorporate your pitch over distance, usually in your head.
When you find out your 3"X2" cast iron wet vent connection is a slight bit off on CI - your loosen the no-hub clamps & rotate, or rotate it in the hub.
When you discover your glued 3"X2" pvc wet vent is off, you cut it out, often having to cut other fittings out in the process because they're so tightly packed together there's no "meat" left between fittings to glue a new one on.
When PVC first got code approval I'm sure there were LOADS of old-timers proclaiming "That plastic stuff is rediculous...a child can do that".
There are the new things that I won't try 'till I hear they work over time, like PEX/crimps, Sharkbite.
But then, I'd sooner use them than galvy on water/drainage.

[patrick88]

If plastic is the down fall then was does "real Plumber" make a mess of it? I have not used pex more than a few feet,but it is nice to tell what pipe is what from the color. I have seen some well done old school plumbing, and i have seen some major junk. I have seen plastic not glued that lasted 5 yrs and i have seen cast iron with no oakum just lead. I also seen no lead just oakum.
I'm sure every older plumber has said the stuff from my day was the best. The guys that used lead pipe I'm sure said it. Hell in Beverly Ma. they pulled the old tree stumps out that were city sewer about 5-6yrs ago now i want something that lasts that long. The one true thing is everybody likes what they are using now and when something else comes along it's crap. This is the 21st century and I'm damn sure new stuff will be coming out fast because everybody wants something better and cheaper. Copper prices are high and the consumer wants the prices low. I have not started to use plastic for water lines yet but I will plumb my house in pex because it looks nice and is easy who doesn't like Quick straight shots no fittings. If you charge by the fitting then stop and charge higher per hour.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

:mad: That was when the TRUE plumbers existed. Where skill in the trade was tops and you really had to know your skills of the profession to make a living.

Now, a glue connection here a push-fit sharkbite there, crimp this and compression tighten that, off you go. Plastic was the downfall of the profession of plumbing in so many ways. That point can be argued to death but the reality is less knowledge is needed to perform the task of plumbing.......whereby that makes the average person more capable of doing plumbing without following the implied knowledge the trade is really worth.


Heh, see what I mean. There must of been a time delay on this thread.

Grumpy's last statement is a solid one that he knows exactly what I'm speaking of.



Let me clarify something as well....I entered the profession of plumbing when plastic was hitting big in the 80's......so I missed all the hard work above...when they was starting to transition pipe material choices on the 2nd roughs to plastic or all copper. But I'm open-minded enough to know that all that still exists that was built back in those days was extremely difficult. Where roughing in a house probably took a week.

Now enter into that equation instead of mission couplings and service weight gaskets......try lead pours on horizontal runs or verticals inbetween joists because you have to turn out a tee to pick up that toilet with a lead bend with a turnout to pick up the lav and shower back in the day.

And I complain that I have to remove this stuff to replace with fast and easy, light PVC? Pfffffft! We as plumbers don't truly realize how good we got it....compared to the old-timers that started their day loading a road-wagon of cast iron fittings, all different sections of piping with hubbed ends.......no wheeler snap cutter either folks; hammer and chisel.....you're screwed/pitching a once good piece of cast iron if the crack walks up or down on the section you just spent 5 minutes tapping.

And for the galvy drains and water lines mentioned......sometimes you can just tell how hard of a time they had installing that the first time.....kinda makes my complaining to tear it out pretty insensitive most times knowing that a wrench had to tighten every single one of those connections numerous times, that they had to make sure their allowances didn't screw them on the final resting spot of tees or fittings.

Try holding a 4' section of 4" XH cast iron horizontally while someone takes hangar iron and straps it up; that's a two man job period. Now, one guy can run plastic like it's nobody's business. Not to mention packing all of those hubs with oakum......working with hot lead, having the right equipment to pour horizontal and vertical runs in tight spots along with open ones...

Some of those jobs back in the day didn't have sawzalls and electric tools; those were hand cut notches in the most awkward of places. Ackkkk!!!

You really think they had a electric threading machine at the truck when they had a piece of 2" galvanized and figured out when they tightened it down that it's going to be a 1/2" short?

No, they hand banged every damn one of those new threads off a long section of 2" or 1/2" water lines to make that happen. Talk about upper body strength between the two aspects of water and drainage.....DAMN!

If homeowners/property owners/ casual diy'rs or handymen had to do the above......the profession of plumbing would be secured completely to those licensed in this profession because of the amount of knowledge and numerous skills needed to perform the above tasks.

It's not like that now.......anyone can buy a stick of PVC and glue fittings to it. Can a DIY'r tuck an entire bath group nicely in a joist span over 10' with the proper amount of fall and not be dropping below the joist at the end of that run in PVC....? Probably not without doing it 3 times over.....but plastic runs relatively light speed over running cast iron from days ago.

I should be getting paid for this history lesson I just typed out to those who question the past. I entered this profession in the mid 80's and missed all the above.....but I still realize how hard that work truly was.



And for my "one for the books"........I just talked to the fellow and he's letting me rework that drain in 2" to solve that problem once and for all.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Rugged, same here.
I was lucky when I started out, to have the priveledge of working with "depression era" plumbers, TRUE old-timers that told me stories of guys being fired for having wasted a single fitting.
Times back then were so tight that a fitting could offset a fraction of your weeks pay.
Their mentality rolled on for decades later, where great pride was taken in your ability to plumb fast, effectively and efficiently.
To add to it, we groan about using joint runners with lead/oakum, before that they had to wipe melted lead by hand which was an absolute art form in itself, now rendered obsolete.
I laugh whenever I hear an apprentice whine about using snap cutters...just over the mental image of him using a chisel the old school way.
Six months ago I listened to a kid in line at a supply house complain about working with 1/2" CPVC in a tight spot...I lost it, I was in stitches, I thought he was joking, apparently he wasn't.
We DO have it lucky, I bet the over-all life expectancy for a plumber 50 years ago was probably 10-15 years less than the average occupation, between labor intensity and chemical exposures (much more lead back then to name one).

[cwhyu2]

A wiped joint was required when took my journeymans test.:D

[GrumpyPlumber]

A wiped joint was required when took my journeymans test.:D

As I understand it, some states still require that to pass...I think Il is one too.
I think.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

"Used" to have to do a lead shower pan right before I got my journeymen's
license. All I had to do was a lead pour joint and copper jig so they knew I could do offsets.

Now....it's a box with 2" cast iron and mission couplings. You have to connect 6 pipes into 3 solid/air tight connections but you have to know your math to know what size pieces of pipe you need to ask for to fit your jig.

I went ahead and donated 3 grand to the KY code course program recently in my area so that these students along with the inspectors have funds to buy material like cast iron/fittings/wood and whatever else they need to get our future tradesmen educated.

I felt that it was necessary on my part since no plumber electively has ever given, just taken from those programs. I am only a handful of plumbers that successfully went 4 years in the Kentucky apprenticeship and lack of funding is what ended that program. Hopefully my contribution gets put to good use.

And no.......I didn't do it on a political front either. I just do not want to see this program die off as it is so useful for these plumbers trying to learn from their plumbing bible.