Are ther alternative to Wooden Post on Deck Foundation

[herbolaryo]

The Deck "wood" post that is nailed on the cement foundation is rotten.
I understand there are synthetic deck materials made of some kind of plastic for the deck flooring.
Sometimes its hard to keep up with waterproofing and is costly.

Are there similar materials for the deck "wood" posts?
Is there a way to make the wood post resistant to rot?

[jadnashua]

Synthetic materials generally aren't strong enough for a support, so no. You could use steel. There is hardware that holds the bottom of the wood post up away from the concrete, and allows air to circulate. Using one of the pressure treated woods and the fixtures to hold it up off of the concrete should allow it to last a long time.

[Bob NH]

You can get away with plastic deck boards by limiting the joist spacing but it is not good for structures. It is not stiff enough.

The ends of posts should NEVER be put against concrete. The best is to put them on heavy galvanized supports that are cast into the concrete. The supports keep them about 1/2" off the concrete. You can also use "earth contact rated" pressure treated plates under the posts but you need straps for a good attachment to resist uplift.

All wood material should be pressure treated. The safest for the posts is to get material that is certified for earth contact.

You can use steel posts or even reinforced concrete. That is a lot harder for a DIYer to work with. I helped my son put in a low deck and we ran the concrete piers from below the frost line up to the beam heights with a 1/2" threaded rod extending down and up enough to both reinforce the pier and serve as an anchor bolt.

The steel backing of old disk brake pads makes a nice big "washer" to hold down multiple 2 x 8s or 2 x 10s used for beams.

[herbolaryo]

Synthetic materials generally aren't strong enough for a support, so no. You could use steel. There is hardware that holds the bottom of the wood post up away from the concrete, and allows air to circulate. Using one of the pressure treated woods and the fixtures to hold it up off of the concrete should allow it to last a long time.

Thanks jadnashua for the post. Can you tell more about the hardware at the bottom... I am a bit of a beginner in terms of deck...

[herbolaryo]

You can get away with plastic deck boards by limiting the joist spacing but it is not good for structures. It is not stiff enough.

The ends of posts should NEVER be put against concrete. The best is to put them on heavy galvanized supports that are cast into the concrete. The supports keep them about 1/2" off the concrete. You can also use "earth contact rated" pressure treated plates under the posts but you need straps for a good attachment to resist uplift.

All wood material should be pressure treated. The safest for the posts is to get material that is certified for earth contact.

You can use steel posts or even reinforced concrete. That is a lot harder for a DIYer to work with. I helped my son put in a low deck and we ran the concrete piers from below the frost line up to the beam heights with a 1/2" threaded rod extending down and up enough to both reinforce the pier and serve as an anchor bolt.

The steel backing of old disk brake pads makes a nice big "washer" to hold down multiple 2 x 8s or 2 x 10s used for beams.

Thank you Bob NH for the post. Can you explain further about the heavy galvanized support... How do I make that? Or is it bought ready to place?

[jadnashua]

Any big box store generally carries them...you don't make them, you buy them. It bolts to the concrete pier and then you bolt the post to it.

[leejosepho]

Somewhere I have seen "highchair" post pads that look kind of like a small bed of nails/legs/fingers that sit on the concrete and keep the post up an inch or two ... but tie-downs would have to be added somehow.

[jimbo]

http://www.strongtie.com/products/categories/post_bases.html

[molo]

Hello all,

This post leads to some more questions regarding installing deck posts. I live in Nw York St. where the frost depth can easily reach 4' below grade. For deck posts, I have seen people use sauna tubes filled with concrete, and I have seen some put the pressure treated posts directly into the ground and tamp every couple of inches as they backfill. I have seen the sauna tubes filled with concrete be lifted out of the ground by frost, and I would assume that eventually the deck posts will rot.

1. What is the best way of installing a deck post that will last for 20 + yrs?

2. Also, with this wet and cold climate, wooden decks are constantly being maintained on an annual basis. I have seen the synthetic deck boards and rail systems. Are these systems framed with traditional lumber (pressure treated), or are they framed with synthetic materials?

3. Can anyone recommend a good synthetic deck brand/line?

TIA,
Molo

[jimbo]

As already stated, synthetic materials are not structural. The best structural material is pressure treated lumber.

If you put posts in the ground, the life expectancy would probably be stated at about 10 to 15 years. Life expectancy of any wood planted in cement is 5 to 10 years. The best bet is pressure treated wood posts placed on concrete footers of appropriate, using the post base which keeps it away from direct contact with the concrete. This probably gives you a life expectancy of 20 years. You just can'y really build a deck that is going to last forever. Too much exposure, too many variable.

With pressure treated, remember that every time you cut it, you need to get a can of the "green stuff" and brush it on the cut.

[jadnashua]

The key to any footing is that the base needs to be below the frost line. If you don't go far enough, or the soil is not good enough for that foundation, you'll get those results. If there is clay or a lot of ground water, you need to potentially ammend the soil.

If you use one of the strong-tie products to hold the base of the PT wood up off of the concrete, it should last for a very long time.

There was an article on synthetic decking in Fine Homebuilding in the last year. You should be able to find it at a library, or maybe a friend, or order it on-line. It compared many of those available.

Many of the railing systems stand alone for the rail and stiles, but the posts are a cap for PT wood. Not all, though.

[geniescience]

dampness when it freezes can crack anything! as long as damp air or moisture can get into it and seep in.

go real far north, like halfway to the North Pole, and you see they only use concrete for the lower half of the structure. Utilities antennas, goverment piers and docks, everything even houses all have concrete bases, or full basements, and the concrete goes up a few feet above ground.

assuming the dock is built to last. governments always want to look like they are going to remain the authority, so they want to build to last. Also, in the long term they have much fewer problems with maintenance and responsibility concerns if it's made tough.

There are hundreds of kinds of concrete products. Some have a lot of air in them, some have none. Damp air will let H2o get in and crack-freeze in winter and spring.

A single long freeze is not a problem, so a long cold winter causes almost no damage. In the fall, as temperatures drop the moisture content in the air also lowers slowly, so there is less and less moisture in the ambient environment too, so the first big loong freeze causes no damage. The worst thing is if moisture is in the concrete in spring -- when daily cycles between thaw and freeze let water percolate (slide around) which lets it occupy (like "expanding") into the micro fissures, and then it applies brand new pressures overnight when it freezes. Repeat for 45 days and you have aged your concrete the equivalent of 100 winters. After ten springs (ten years) your concrete could have aged as if 1000 years old, or it could be fresh and new looking, and it all depends on whether you managed to keep it dry in February, March, April and May when the sun is strong during the day but the night time temperature is below freezing.


david

[frenchie]

As far as post straight into the ground go, be aware that there are different grades of pressure-treated, depending on how much of the chemical has been injected into the wood.

Some pressure-treated is just rated for "outdoor exposure" - ie, deck framing
some is rated for "ground contact" - retaining walls, etc.
some is rated for "foundation" - pile foundation under coastal homes
and then there's "marine-use" - piers, docks, pilings

[Backglass]

Can you explain further about the heavy galvanized support... How do I make that? Or is it bought ready to place?

A picture is worth a thousand words!

http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/decks/extend1/existi1.jpghttp://www.probuildingsupplies.com/ccp51/media/images/product_category/postcurled.jpghttp://www.cornerhardware.com/articles/images/ar047_3.jpg

[jadnashua]

There are other, similar brackets. The one I was referring to has an upside-down u-shaped channel with a bracket that holds the post. This raises it above the concrete and gives it a good chance of staying out of surface water, or if not, then drying out later since it is not in direct contact with the concrete. The main component of all is that the post is not burried in the concrete which often creates a cup to hold water against the wood for extended time and leads to rot.

[leejosepho]

Life expectancy of any wood planted in cement is 5 to 10 years.

What about pole buildings where posts are set in holes that are then filled with concrete?

Believing that is okay, I am presently setting some 6x6 PT posts on large foundation pads below the frost line and pouring 12" columns around them and a foot above ground level.

Is my new workshop possibly going to lose its foundational integrity in 20 years?

[Bob NH]

What about pole buildings where posts are set in holes that are then filled with concrete?

Believing that is okay, I am presently setting some 6x6 PT posts on large foundation pads below the frost line and pouring 12" columns around them and a foot above ground level.

Is my new workshop possibly going to lose its foundational integrity in 20 years?

It depends on the quality of the pressure treating of the wood.

Much of the pressure-treated framing material is now treated with lower quality or lower concentration biocides (no arsenic) because there was concern about kiddies chewing on deck posts and getting arsenic poisoning from deck boards. Therefore, most of the material that you see in the Big Box stores is not adequately treated for foundation structures.

Power transmission lines and pole barns are constructed with heavily treated poles that will last a long time because they have more material to rot and have more of the most effective treatment materials. They are usually NOT set in concrete. If they are backfilled with gravel or crushed stone they can dry out and decay more slowly. A structural post system is designed to take the vertical and horizontal loads but the sway bracing is provided by sheathing on buildings or by diagonal bracing.

[jadnashua]

Personally, I much prefer never to encase wood in concrete...I think you are just asking for problems down the road. If wood can stay dry, or have a chance to dry out, it can last a very long time. If it can stay constantly wet, it can last a very long time. Many of the old buildings in Boston's back bay are on wood pilings, a couple of centuries old. They've been fine until the water table dropped...now, many require $100K to $1M to fix so the building doesn't fall down. When given the chance, keep it dry. Any moisture that does get next to the wood will be held there for a long time by the concrete.

[molo]

`[QUOTE=jadnashua]. If there is clay or a lot of ground water, you need to potentially ammend the soil.

I am planning an 8'x10' deck We do have alot of clay here, groundwater isn't a problem
At this stage I am planning the structural post part. As stated I live in New York State, where we have a 4' frost depth, (although I have heard of frost being driven down as far as 8' where there is alot of vehicular traffic). I don't have a problem with traffic here, but I still have a 4' depth to deal with.
I plan to put concrete in the ground, with a post on top (with appropriate hardware). Now I have to determine how to do the concrete.
1. What is the best method?
2. Do I need to consider a footer underneath the concrete post/pier?
3. Do I use a sauna tube or loose pour concrete?
4. If a sauna tube is neccesary, what size do I use?

Thanks for any input,
Molo
















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[jadnashua]

To get the minimum (least cost) solution using the minimum materials, you may need to talk to a structural engineer and probably dig a test hole. What you put in the hole depends on the soil. Clay is lousy for support, it expands and contracts with the moisture content...you really want something different there, since it really does compress, and that doesn't provide the support you want.

[Backglass]

As stated I live in New York State, where we have a 4' frost depth, (although I have heard of frost being driven down as far as 8' where there is alot of vehicular traffic). I don't have a problem with traffic here, but I still have a 4' depth to deal with.
I plan to put concrete in the ground, with a post on top (with appropriate hardware). Now I have to determine how to do the concrete.
1. What is the best method?
2. Do I need to consider a footer underneath the concrete post/pier?
3. Do I use a sauna tube or loose pour concrete?
4. If a sauna tube is neccesary, what size do I use?

I also live in NY and built a new deck last year. The code for my area (Duchess Co) was 42" footers which is a LONG way down. We rented the big two-man auger from HD which helped tremendously, but still beats the crap out of you. I used 12" sono-tubs. They didn't have to be that big but it gave me wiggle room on post placement in case my holes were a little off (they were ;))

Be sure to check with your local municipality because every one is a little different on joist sizing, footer depths, rail height/ballister spacing, etc.

http://www.planethill.com/barry/deck/footer.jpg
http://www.planethill.com/barry/deck/foundation.jpg
http://www.planethill.com/barry/deck/complete.jpg

[molo]

Nice looking deck backglass! I'm going for something similar, a basic rectangle with one set of stairs. (a bit smaller 8' x 10').
Yes 48" down (my frost depth, I'm south of Rochester) is a long ways down. We have clay and rock here, not sure how well the auger will perform, What kind of soil do you have there?
At this point I am still planning and have many considerations.

1. How to attach and properly flash the ledger, and reinstall the vinyl siding.

2. How to dig the holes and what method to use for the posts (sauna tube, footer/with sauna, no sauna).

3. What decking and rail system (wood or synthetic)

4. How to level things (transit or am considering using a water level)

5. Overall deck, rail, stair design. (I am familiar with the beam system in backglasses photo, for appearance purposes I am wondering if that could be used as the face joist for the deck, and the joists coming from the ledger could attach to it with hangers eliminating the beam underneath)

It is tough to get advice the building inspector, He is super busy, and has spread himself to thin, (perhaps the village doesn't pay him enough). Either way, I would love to hear from any body on this forum with advice/experience with these issus of consideration.

Thanks in Advance,
Molo

[leejosepho]

How to level things (transit or am considering using a water level)

A water level is working just fine for my own project. I bought some 3/8" id vinyl tubing and filled it with windshield washer fluid. Have someone hold the tube in place over your reference point, then raise or lower the other end of the tube until the fluid is at your reference point, then mark your own end at "level".

To measure differences in elevation (such as with footer pads), attach yard sticks to some broom handles or pieces of pipe or whatever (and at equal distances from their bottoms) and use a given number (such as 24) on one stick as your reference point. The number on the second stick will be lower if your second pad is higher than the first -- the difference is how much -- and vice-versa.

[Backglass]

Nice looking deck backglass!

Thanks!

Yes 48" down (my frost depth, I'm south of Rochester) is a long ways down. We have clay and rock here, not sure how well the auger will perform, What kind of soil do you have there?

Rocks, rocks and more rocks...hence the line about the auger "beating the crap" out of you. It took us all day to drill those three holes.

How to attach and properly flash the ledger, and reinstall the vinyl siding.

Siding snaps off. Lag bolt the ledger directly into the sill or studs. Again my inspector wanted to see a lag bolt on every center.

How to dig the holes and what method to use for the posts (sauna tube, footer/with sauna, no sauna).

Rent the auger or hire a crew to do the footers for you. It was by far the hardest part of the whole job. The sono-tubes are better that nothing IMO as they raise the footer off ground level.

How to level things (transit or am considering using a water level)

String, stick and string bubble level. $2.99! :D

Good Luck!

[molo]

Here is where I plan to do this deck.

As stated before, here are some of my considerations:

1. How to attach and properly flash the ledger, and reinstall the vinyl siding.

2. How to dig the holes and what method to use for the posts (sauna tube, footer/with sauna, no sauna).

3. What decking and rail system (wood or synthetic)

4. How to level things (transit or am considering using a water level)

5. Overall deck, rail, stair design. (I am familiar with the beam system in backglasses photo, for appearance purposes I am wondering if that could be used as the face joist for the deck, and the joists coming from the ledger could attach to it with hangers eliminating the beam underneath)

6. Appropriate fasteners (as well as coating/wrapping cut ends that will be exposed to air/joist hangers)

It is tough to get advice the building inspector, He is super busy, and has spread himself to thin, (perhaps the village doesn't pay him enough). Either way, I would love to hear from any body on this forum with advice/experience with these issus of consideration.

Thanks in Advance for any advice,
Molo

[Bob NH]

8x10 ft deck. 80 square ft x 50 pounds per square foot = 4000 pounds. You can use 2000 pounds per square foot in almost any soil so you need 2 square ft. Four posts with 9.6" diameter footings. Bell out the base to 12 inches and you have lots of margin.

Here are some ideas that I used, which you may be able to adapt.

I poured the posts for my son's deck in New Hampshire where 4 ft is the standard for frost resistance.

Get one of those two-handle post hole diggers and go down at least 4 ft. Then, bell out the bottom to maybe 12" if possible. That will help prevent frost heaving because the earth is pushing down of the column. You want to clean out all of the loose soil. I used a shop-vac.

If you have rocks use the two-handle digger and get a heavy steel spud (HD has them). Power diggers don't handle rocks well and four holes can be easily dug by hand. With 4 holes I would use the two-handle digger for all of them.

I did a free-standing deck (not attached to house). It was easier than messing with siding and attaching to an uncertain rim-joist in the house. If you use the cantilever design (overhang as shown in the pictures) you can get by with 2x6 joists and double 2x8 for the beam. About 1 ft of overhang would be food for a deck that goes out 8 ft.

An advantage of attaching to the house is that it provides the necessary bracing. If you have posts you must attach to the house or use diagonal bracing.

Where I could make a clean hole I used 8" Sonotube for the top foot in the ground and up as high as I needed. In my case it was a low deck so there were no posts and the concrete came about a foot out of the ground.

You want to have a set of level strings when you pour the concrete because that is no time to be figuring out how high to make each pier. You do not want to have to "adjust" the height after the concrete sets.

Mix the concrete (Sackcrete or Quickcrete) as dry as possible. It should all be moist but you should be able to shovel it without it running off the sides.

Slope the top away so water doesn't puddle on the column.

I reinforced each column and made a tiedown bolt in one piece. HD sells 10 ft lengths of 1/2" threaded rod in the electrical department (cheapest place) and I made 5 ft lengths for each post. I was using double 2x8s for beams and the reinforcement/anchor bolt came up between.

I used old disk brake pads with the lining broken off as big washers to span two 2x8s. You need to be able to drill a 1/2" hole in them. You might get by with 3/8" rods and holes to make it easier.

[molo]

I did a free-standing deck (not attached to house). It was easier than messing with siding and attaching to an uncertain rim-joist in the house. If you use the cantilever design (overhang as shown in the pictures) you can get by with 2x6 joists and double 2x8 for the beam. About 1 ft of overhang would be food for a deck that goes out 8 ft.


I reinforced each column and made a tiedown bolt in one piece. HD sells 10 ft lengths of 1/2" threaded rod in the electrical department (cheapest place) and I made 5 ft lengths for each post. I was using double 2x8s for beams and the reinforcement/anchor bolt came up between.

I used old disk brake pads with the lining broken off as big washers to span two 2x8s. You need to be able to drill a 1/2" hole in them. You might get by with 3/8" rods and holes to make it easier.

The free-standing deck sounds good, I won't have to expose the house, and won't need to deal with flashing. I will need to dig two more holes!

Bob, could you please tell me if the threaded rod, with brake-pad washer and nut was the only way you secured the beams? I'm assuming these beams were stood on end. I also like the idea of using the concrete as posts rather than wood poss. I'm trying to determine how to attach the beam (s) to the concrete post.

TIA,
Molo