Sidework?

[enriquehobart]

I am an apprentice. I currently do sidework in what I choose to call the beginning Handyman level. I have been in the Plumbing trade for 1 year 3 months.

I want to know if I should add some Plumbing services to my current services or just wait until I have more experience as a Plumber before doing so.

1) Add some easy Plumbing services? Which ones?

2) Wait it out a while.

Thank you in advance.

[jimbo]

You didn't mention what type of company is your "day job". They are sometimes not thrilled about your side jobs.

[enriquehobart]

They are a Plumbing Company. The parameters to work within are: Do not use company resources or do business with existing clients. I do not believe this would be a big deal to the boss as long as this did not interfere with work flow and did not become the topic of all conversations.

[kordts]

In Illinois it is illegal to do side jobs. A plumber can only plumb for a registered contractor. The problem with doing siders is that you are doing it at below market rates, which then makes it hard on the legit contractors to charge what they need to survive and prosper. Say your shop needs to charge 100 bucks an hour, you come along and charge 30. Now what happens when they call a legit plumber and expect to pay 30 an hour? The customer thinks they are getting screwed and all plumbers end up looking bad. Don't do it.

[hj]

I would terminate any employees doing side jobs. Either they think I am not paying them enough, or I am charging too much. Most contractors would do the same thing, and any union worker found doing sidejobs would be disciplined.

[gamegod]

I am an apprentice. I currently do sidework in what I choose to call the beginning Handyman level. I have been in the Plumbing trade for 1 year 3 months.

I want to know if I should add some Plumbing services to my current services or just wait until I have more experience as a Plumber before doing so.

1) Add some easy Plumbing services? Which ones?

2) Wait it out a while.

Thank you in advance.

I feel for what your thinking - Really !!

Dont do it - ill tell you why, first you needed work and your boss hired you for better or worse and this is giving you a chance to learn the trade, and weather or not you believe he wouldn't care about the side Jobs ( even if he told you this him self ) you will be looked over for raises and the opportunity to move up in the company.

The money looks really good!!! WOW !! I make him like 450 to 650 a day and yet I get a lousy 125.00 of it you may be thinking - if hes licensed for plumbing then he is paying a huge amount in for that privilege and I do mean huge - after losses, tax's, insurance, SSIS, unemployment, state fees, vehicle, phones, power, waster and much more, he made about the same as you when the day is done from your ability's and any othere employees he has. you made him some cash and for that he does your paper work pays your tax's and if you get hurt you get medical he pays as well.

working for your self may seem like the thing to do and you know so much compared to last year its not funny, but its what you dont know that will get you in hot water - Really!!

before you do anything dumb like getting in over your head ( Easy to do ) most trades ppl have a minimum of 5 yrs under there belt be for there ready for the real world and you should have that first.

Ok you think your ready for the real world and want more money for your efforts - try this first - ask for a raise and if NO is the answer then dont quit your current job and try and go work for the best known company in your area and see if you can get hired -if No is the answer you get then your not ready, if your good then you will get a raise or hired and you'll be making more money for your effort and be happy.

After you have 5 yrs under your belt and your tired of other ppl making your daily decisions for you then go to the contractors Board and take the test pass it then hit the city for a work permit by a truck tools and parts do a little advertising and get your ass to work!

Any thing less and you chance failure, loss of your job - and will end up working at the local convenience store.

I personally am not a plumber - plumbing is a business and like any other follows normal business practices !

5 yrs is a drop in the bucket if you think about it.

Good luck with your endeavors.

[Verdeboy]

I would stick to side jobs for friends and family only.

[Cass]

Personally I think doing work for friends and especially family is the worst side work you can do. Talk about not wanting to pay a reasonable rate.

[master plumber mark]

If you can get another job easily as a plumber tomorrow
with another compnay, that is your risk.

but if you want to learn everything you can and get a Lic.
it might be wise to keep a low profile.

....and take care of freinds only....
..and eventually you will realize that your freinds are not really your freinds and its not worth the risk...


once you start doing side jobs, the word always eventually gets back to the company.....to the boss

someone you tell at work that dont like you will blabber what you are doing to the owner.....

then next thing that happens is anytime anything comes up stolen or just missing, or even like .... they thought had 300 3/4 elbows and only have 35 left in the bin...........Huh .. where did they all go????

you are on the short list of fellows that come to their mind....

you dont want to be on that list


I had one tieive with me that gave out his personal cell phone # to my customers... ..

I got rid of him for various other reasons.....including side jobs and stealing my customers.

and would not hire or give a good referral for that psyco to anyone

[geniescience]

instead of repeating what has already been said, i'll add a few new things.

if you bring to your boss the few small opportunities you come across to do little jobs, he might appreciate knowing what you have had dangled in front of your nose tempting you. If you can decline most of them, transform one or two of them into truly profitable jobs for your boss, and then only spend a couple hours on a couple minor things that family wants done, he might appreciate your sense of what is right, what is worth doing, what is honest dealing, and what your judgement is. When you work on the side without discussing it with him, you are giving away a thousand little signals that are wrong for any team you are on. Please realize that people can see it in your body, since your basic level of fatigue and energy will be different. Even your hands will show it. A certain number of hours of rest, (as opposed to activity) in your fingers, can be seen by anyone who has trained their eyes and their brain to see this.

Friends and family will not ever pay you enough to make it a business; it might be fun to show off, be friendly and socialize while working with them, occasionally. It is true that your initial work activity on your own appears to be almost all profit and almost no cost, but this is so UNtrue that it is better to just restrain yourself since more than a few people have all said the same thing in different ways.

Decades ago I had a 20 year-old secretary who I gave the authorization to, to stay late if she had things to type for other people, as long as I knew it was going to happen. A month or two later I discussed with her the disadvantages of accepting work on a Monday to type overnight for Tuesday, since it would increase her general level of fatigue which could last the whole week. A couple weeks later she remarked that it was true that she had more energy in general if she didn't extend her working hours with volunteer or sideline stuff. A month later I noticed she only took work for "Thursday evenings" and only if it was short enough that she could still go shopping before 9 pm. Later the entire "activity" stopped; that was her decision.

david

[hj]

One situation I heard of that could come back to haunt you. A plumber was doing a side job, when his torch caught the building on fire. As a sidejobber he did not have insurance, so he tried to write a contract and invoice showing that his boss's company was doing the work, then turned it into their insurance company. He got caught for insurance fraud, plus other charges, and paying for the damages.

[Gary Swart]

Several valid points have been made to discourage you from this undertakinging, but HJ's point is, to me, the most important of all. Not that you would attempt to defraud an insurance company, but that when you do sidework, you are totally naked of insurance in the event of an accident. There are so many things that could happen, some your fault, some not, but if a pipe broke after you had been working on the plumbing in the home and the damage was multi thousands of dollars, who do you think the homeowner will come after even if you weren't within 3o feet of the problem area? You would be well advised to avoid sidework even for friends and relatives. When you accept work as a professional, you also accept the responsibilities that go with it. Tell you friends/relatives that company policy doesn't allow you do work outside the company. That is more likely to be true than not anyway.

[Verdeboy]

Let's be realistic here. If his mother has a leaky faucet, she damn well expects her son to fix it if he can, rather than hiring some stranger. So, to answer your question about what jobs to do on the side (when it would be in your best interest to do them as in the previous example) I would say any small job that doesn't require a torch.

Also, I don't think working for someone else should preclude you from getting your own insurance policy if you feel you need one.

BTW, his reputation is going to be based on the quality of his work, his promptness, and his attitude--and not whether he spends a couple hours fixing Aunt Millies leaky toilet on a Saturday.

[Roy Nakamura]

I'm not a Plumber or a union worker ... but I can sweat a fitting. If any of my friends or family ask me to help them with a project...and I have the time...I bring my torch and tools...and they supply the beer.

I guess I'm looking at this from a very different perspective. I own 13 rental units and I have been doing all the plumbing work for the past seventeen years such as replacing bath/shower valves, replacing stems, installing diswashers, icemakers, changing water heaters all the way to snaking (yuk) out the mains and your standard everyday clogged sink drain. I've NEVER had any issues with my workmanship that has caused any damage...so I wouldn't expect any issues with a Plumber screwing things up.

Maybe I don't see it...but is there something wrong for a Plumber to swap toilets, add a hose bib, replace shut-off values or doing copper repiping on the side?

[Roy Nakamura]

BTW...when I'm torching a fitting close to studs I always keep a big cup of water near by. So far...I haven't burned down any structures but I have charred a lot of studs and sheetrock...hehhhehehehe.;)

[geniescience]

whenever anyone works in their own field, that they are professional in, the responsibility thing becomes a factor.

i once hired a handyman at $15 per hour; he said one thing wrong, about what i could do later with my half-finished water lines; i ended up ruining some hardwood floor when water leaked... I didn't blame him and we are still friends. i also never told anyone how it all came to be, so his reputation is not hurt. I resolved to learn enough never to let myself rely on anyone like that again. Today I can correct a Master Plumber who is cutting corners; I have seen that happen in my house.

on the other hand, anyone who works in a field where there is danger to persons (i.e. electrician, plumber or health professional) has to be far far more careful about "helping" people out in return for a reduced rate. Anyone could claim later that he is liable, for any and all possible problems. It is almost impossible to "know" everything about a particular subject, and things can get complicated quickly and spin out of control -- and when you have code to follow, and public health concerns to consider, you won't be let off easily by saying you were just being a helper.

in the field that you are a professional in, your professional conduct is expected. You cannot help out as a second-level handy person.

plumbing does deal with life and death issues and potentially large property damage too.

david

[Gary Swart]

Insurance is part of the overhead the shop owner has to figure into his rates, but there is no way in this world a non licensed individual can purchase liability insurance to protect him while doing work that calls for a professional. No one sets out with the intent of erring and causing damage to another's property, but S##t happens to the best of us! As an apprentice, you may have more knowledge than the average handyman, but that won't cut it if you screw up. I wouldn't hire you to work on my plumbing for another reason. If you are hurt on the job, guess who's homeowners insurance will be expected to pay. It's kind of a sad world we live in sometimes, seems like we have to cover our backsides in case of lawsuits, but that's the way it is.

[master plumber mark]

Their was a accident in our town....

some "dummy" went out to a freind of a freinds house

and basically installed a water heater and ran a new gas

line for "all the beer he could drink"...

a few days passed and a explosion blew up the house
and the fallout damaged about 60 homes in the neighborhood...


the homeowners insurance company was fighting the claim
because it was not done by a lic plumber.........


of course the handy man does not have a pot to piss in ,

the home-owner should have known better and is probably
not going ot get his home covered,

so its probably gonna fall on everyones homeowners insurance
to pay for the damages to life and property.

[hj]

One additional factor. If you are not a licensed contractor, all the customer has to do after you finish the work is say, "Thanks for the excellent work, but I do not have to pay for work done by a non-contractor, and the courts will back him up, regardless of the extent of the work done." Lawyers would be particularly liable to do this, because they are known for it.

[enriquehobart]

I will stick with only plumbing for a Plumber. My Handyman work will remain Plumbingless. When my friend becomes a PITA about this subject in the future I will site these reasons. Interestingly enough I have had a look at decorative shelving on websites and believe this would bring in some good customers for my handyman stuff.

I tried very hard but could not dis-agree with ANY of the total NAY comments.:D

[Verdeboy]

Plumbing! Schlumbing!

Everything that has been said in this thread, both yay or nay, applies to any outside work. A good handyman has to be adept at carpentry, electrical, drywall, painting, plumbing, and so on. If you feel confident doing these other things, then, you run into the same dilemma of whether to have insurance, whether to be licensed, and so forth. I know people who have cut off their fingers with a circular saw. I don't know anyone who has been badly injured doing plumbing. A stiff neck maybe. :D

[hj]

Our comments apply to ALL work done outside a legitimate contracting business. Insurance, licensing, bonding, usually apply to all trades and are for the protection of both the consumer and the contractor.

[kordts]

Plumbing, schmumbing, gas explosions sure as hell hurt people. You get a stiff neck watching the house go into orbit. If a handyhacker or sidejobber wants that on his conscience, go for it. How about the developmentally disabled girl killed by CO in Indiana the other day? Nah, bad plumbing doesn't hurt people. Cutting corners on plumbers doesn't cost money, it pays. Not.

[Verdeboy]

Plumbing, schmumbing, gas explosions sure as hell hurt people. You get a stiff neck watching the house go into orbit. If a handyhacker or sidejobber wants that on his conscience, go for it. How about the developmentally disabled girl killed by CO in Indiana the other day? Nah, bad plumbing doesn't hurt people. Cutting corners on plumbers doesn't cost money, it pays. Not.

I knew someone would misunderstand. I said the same thing HJ said, but not as eloquently. BTW, I've had to re-do a lot of plumbing done by hack licensed plumbers. So, the knife cuts both ways.

[Roy Nakamura]

I hope as a newbie here I'm not out of line. If I am please accept my apologies. Wouldn't a typical 'side-job' be something small in nature such as replacing a value stem/washer or swapping a toilet out rather than doing black steel work?

Anyway...one thing I have noticed in my many years as a Handyhacker :p is that there are some plumbers (who could have very well been a handy hacker) that had no problem hogging out a floor joist to run a 3" drain or notching out a huge gap in a load bearing stud/beam/joist during a copper repipe..;) Just my observation. Okay...the beam hogger outer must of been a drunk handyhacker ;)

[hj]

Being a journeyman, or having a contractor's license does not make a person an artist, but neither does being a handyman, or doing handyman work. Sidejobs are any work done outside the person's normal employment, and can range from replacing a washer to plumbing a house, (for cash). ANY work such as this, since it is considered not to have a contract, is legally undefensible. The courts have held that persons who do this type of work have NO legal right to be paid, and the customer can refuse to pay without recourse. This, along with the liability from a lack of insurance and possibly bonding, and possible job termination, can offset any additional income the sidejobber makes.

[Roy Nakamura]

Hj...thanks for the explanation. I know here in California the state is not sympathetic to the unlicensed tradesmen. I’ve wondered how handyman companies like “Rent a Husband” or “Handyman Services” work around the dollar limits imposed by the State.

I’m an engineer by profession … but I did take some masonry courses at night for fun about 20 years ago. It was taught by a Union Mason and he lectured us about the downside of doing side jobs. The worst was that if another Union Mason spotted you he could report you to the hall. He said that many Union Masons would do sidework during the weekend…but typically not in the front yard where they could be easily spotted. It’s interesting today that there are virtually no union masons doing residential work today here is So Cal. True the guy I hire to do a retaining wall is licensed and bonded…but the guy who is actually slapping the mud and laying the stone doesn’t speak English and is happy to work on Sunday. Sort of sad… :(

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Most unions after you retire and receive a pension.......if you get caught doing what you did for a living with the union, you lose that pension.

That's pretty common around here. My dad was told that as a union carpenter. Start framing houses or remodeling and you'll be using that money instead of the pension.

I can't cater to that. If someone does what they love and did for a living....they shouldn't be forced to stop; that pension money? That's your money ffs!

[hj]

that pension money? That's your money ffs!

Try telling that to my Dad, or me. They give you what they want to, regardless of what you contributed over the years.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Before I lost one of my parents they had an option of what way the tides would divide.

My dad if he chose a certain way.......would retain most of it. If he chose a different way........30%.

Unbelievable.

I'm "still" on the bench at my local union......it will always be that way so they don't get sued for discrimination which it really is.

[hj]

I'm "still" on the bench at my local union......it will always be that way so they don't get sued for discrimination which it really is.
As a "traveler" the local union tried to put me there also, but the company would not let them and said they would lay off all the local union help if they kept trying.

[Randyj]

It would all depend on what your employer's company does... if there's a job that is something the company would normally do then I'd say that as an employee it is your responsability to pass that job on to the company (unless it's for your immediate family). Other than that, you're giving up your free time and family time for a few bucks. If you're going to do the work then you need to be legal. At least get a contractor's license. If you are not a master plumber then you can not legally do certain things, e.g. new plumbing... only repair work or drain cleaning...and that may be depending on where you are. I started out much like you except that I never worked for a plumbing company but was doing all the plumbing & repair work for mom's rental properties and kind of grew from there and got my plumbing license. Now I live out on a lake far from town and am constantly competeing with hacks and cut throats and handymen...and do a heck of alot of handyman work...always correcting other's mistakes, carpenters and electricians especially!!!! I'm quick to tell people that I'm not a "handyman" ... I'm a "professional handyman"... if they don't want to pay "professional" prices for professional quality work then they need to get someone else.... I've pissed off a few big time contractors who are getting houses plumbed for $300 per fixture...and that includes the materials!!!!!....plumbers with their own business clearing about $10/hour...doing chump work on high dollar vacation homes.... INSANE!!!!... my feeling is that if they can afford such a house they should be willing to pay quality prices for a job comparable to the price of home they're building...not a cheap house, not cheap plumbing, not a cheap plumber... I'd rather work one or two days a week for $50-60 per hour than five days a week for $10 per hour.... compared to the big cities an hour's drive away I'm still very cheap....but pretty high for the locals and judging from the quality of work I've seen in these houses I'm well worth every penny that they don't pay me to not do the job they won't hire me for.

[lovetohelpya]

Hmm....may I comment on a couple of points here?

I am one of two owners of a plumbing and drain cleaning company. I'm also a licensed residential builder (michigan).

At the plumbing company, I've fired many guys for doing side-jobs. How did they come by the side jobs? By talking to people while in uniform and giving out their phone numbers. They were taking potential customers from my business, agreeing to work they're not licensed to do. I paid for the advertising, I paid for the vehicles they drove around town for work, I paid for the gas/insurance/logos ect. My partner is a UNION plumber. He spent MANY (and you know what I'm talking about) hours earning his status. These guys were using our blood, sweat and tears to make themselves a few bucks.

You may think you're doing it honestly, but if the referrals came about because you work for ______ Plumbing company - you're cheating your boss. All it takes is one of your customers calling your boss because they lost/want your personal number, and the jig is up.
FYI, if you live in Michigan - the law allows your boss, the person you're doing the side-job for, and the STATE to sue you. The state can also toss you in jail for a while.


There was a question about how handyman companies can get past the $$ law about licensing - here's a couple of things I've learned over the years:

a- they bill everything seperately, underneath the $$ level
b- they have MA licenses (Maintenance & Alteration License, allows you to specialize in 2-3 areas, depending on state license laws, no price ceiling)
c- they don't care.

State laws penalize licensed contractors more harshly than unlicensed. For example: In Michigan, if I were to do work for you for $800 and I DON'T pull a building permit, I can be fined for up to $10,000 and up to 5 yrs in jail. If a non-licensed person does the same thing, he gets hit with a $500 fine. period.


"And away goes troubles down the drain." tm