My Tankless Experiment

[master plumber mark]

I am tired of hearing all the SMOKE and MIRRORS
talk from the tankless salesman and am presently
looking to install one in my own home

then do a little experiment

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I Just went to a training seminar last night on the

takagi tankless water heaters.......

that was fun.......
it felt like being at a three stooges film-fest...

(but their was free food)


I was not aware that when you vented one
out the side of the house just like a power vent
that they used a Stainless Steel single wall
vent pipe..... and it died outside just like a
power vent with a metal Tee with screens on
both ends .......

Now the odd thing that the salesman tried to gloss
over was the fact that the actual temperature of
the tee and out going gases can hit about
300 degrees.... folks...you can fry bacon on that!!

they let you take this out the roof of your house
in single wall SS pipe too!!

I think that this temp could set the Attic on fire some day
or the , bushes or leaves on fire
on the side of the house....

I feel you should use double or triple wall flu
pipe if you want to avoid future problems

probably most local codes would force tou to beef up that vent pipe...


Have you ever burnt yourself on a motor cycle muffler
or a lawnmower muffler???

We asked what happened if a kid, wife or dog touched
this hot as hell vent pipe ????


BRANDING someone on this tee is very possible with the
side house outlet at about knee height..........

I was told that is what you got insurance for.....


skin graphs for the dog, wife, and neighbor kids should all be covered
by your insurance company......

no problem

so I was not too impressed....LOL
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So I think I will install one in my own home
and do an on-going experiment on it.....

Waiting to see if I can get a heavy duty Takagi
from my supplier then slap it on the wall for
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

I am looking for a couple of small in line gas meters right now..

then I am gonna hook it up right next to my 75 gallon
BRAD-FORD WHITE...install a bypass on the plumbing system

install the small gas meters to both of the heaters

and do an experiment to see which one works best
and actually is more economical over a certain time period....???


I already have a one inch line with a 3/4 outlet less than
5 feet away...

I have a full 12 inch tile chimmney going out the roof......
the vent is easy as pie and will not factor into the R+D

so it should not be brain surgery to set these up with a bypass

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I presently have a NORTIZ unit new in the box but I dont know how good that brand is...

model #VP-4-36str would anyone know how good this one is???

http://www.noritz.com/n069mdv.html its considered middle of the road.... supposed to supply 6.9 gal per minute
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets see....here is my criteria

incomming water right now is about 45......

I got two kids and a very -----HIGH MAINTAINCE WIFE-----

we have three bathrooms --one bath-tub rarely gets used,

one is a bath---6ft X36 whirlpool tub- it gets used a lot.

two kitchen sinks , one dishwasher,

one laundry and laundry tub


technically its a 2 1/2 bathoom house......


again the wife is -----HIGH MAINTIANCE------

and she is not going to put up with a lot of sh/t.
so how do you factor the wife into the experiment.?????



here are the safety instructions for the Nortiz unit I presently have

http://www.noritz.com/documents/N-069M_N-063SManual.pdf

[R/T Performance]

I will be watching for results:) .
I need to get mine out the dam closet and put a nice pantry there:rolleyes:

[master plumber mark]

dont hold your breath

like I mentioined I have not passed this by
my wife yet.....

High maintaince.....remember...


tonight .....I threw this at her and she has said ok.....

so we are on again.....

now waiting on the gas metering devices from
my gas company buddy.......

[toolaholic]

I have a $300 Raytek infared thermometer I use to find radiant pipes in concrete slabs. GREAT tool for many uses. I'd like you to measure the heat on the single wall at your house or at another installation. You can buy one of these starting at $59

[master plumber mark]

the heat on a normal water heater is probably
around 175 comming off the tank type heater
I have slightly burned myself while installing
heaters and touching that pipe... nothing too bad


Like I already said the Takagi folks claim

it leaves the house at 275 to 300

if you get a chance look at the install instructions
in the link I left on the first post.... for th NORTIZ

about page 5 is shows a a warning not to touch
the outgoing pipe on the side of a house
page #5 shows a lady in serious pain from touching the vent....


Once this experiment gets launched ,
I could measure that temp pretty easy


What if I put a piece of bacon on the hood going out
the side of the house and wait to see how long it
took to cook, would that make you happy...???

[Rancher]

I have a $300 Raytek infared thermometer I use to find radiant pipes in concrete slabs. GREAT tool for many uses. I'd like you to measure the heat on the single wall at your house or at another installation. You can buy one of these starting at $59I have one of those, bought it from one of the E bay stores for $49, and yes you can find the hydronic pipes in the floor... I wanted to use it to find out which tubes in my solar collectors were plugged up... duh, it reads the temperature off the glass cover.

Rancher

[Cookie]

Mark, I read the instruction manual you put on the link, saw the illustration of the woman with the huge glowing burnt hand; tell you what, I wouldn't get one. Too hot, and too many restrictions. Too accessible for a disaster with burns.

[jadnashua]

My boiler is over 98% efficient in its condensing low-fire mode. It uses pvc pipe, and you can easily touch the pipes, which are barely warm, and I've got as much hot water as I need...even with my incoming water at nearly freezing this time of the year.

I still think a tankless is more trouble than it's worth for many of our northern climes where the incoming water is very cold.

[kordts]

I have installed both Noritz and Bosch brand tankless. The Noritz used stainless vent pipe. The Bosch was vented with B-vent. Both were sidewall. The noritz was hung in the kitchen and terminated about 12 foot above ground level. The Bosch was in a basement and terminated about a foot above the ground. I was able to keep my hand on both of the vent pipes while they were under full demand, I would guess the temp was about 100 degrees. I didn't check how hot it was outside. I got a nice little cherry on my forehead from a furnace flue pipe two weeks ago, but that was just galvanised.

[Cal]

Mark,

If you want the BEST ,,,,,,, http://www.foreverhotwater.com/index.php

This is the one . You do not need to worry about anyone getting burned or any of the other whinny crap that people are spewing about ondemand heaters .

If you REALLY want to give it a try ,,,,,, Go Rinnai

Cal

p.s. the HIGH maintenice wife ,,,,,, it is EXHAUSTING ain't it ??

[master plumber mark]

The high maintaince wife just makes a person stronger
you either grow a backbone and draw the line
in the sand or wimper like a whipped poodle and die...


I just realized from your post how many that their
are too choose from out there.........I mean tankless heaters

this is all still presently in the "talk phase"

still loooking for the small gas apartment meters....

and waiting to see about the takagi.....

I have the new Nortiz 6.0 gal on hand now..."


but with all these differnet brands, and every one
being different in technology...its surely gonna be hell to
get one repaired some day..

just hope that the hi-tech plumber that you bought it from
is still in business 3 years from now.....

[moggi1964us]

This kind of system is popular in the UK.

I installed one of these about 4 years ago before I left the UK and it worked a treat.

Hot water supply was at the tap in about 6 seconds or so nearest to the boiler and about 15 seconds furthest from the boiler.

I never had any issues with the heat exhausting as it has a system that captures much of the heat and recycles it. I have stood with my hand next to the vent and felt hot air but not anywhere near able to burn you. The vent was about 24 inches max from the boiler.

Really efficient and small and perfect for places where having a water tank is no option or a costly/difficult one. They run very quietly (well the two I owned did) and are easy to maintain.

Can't tell you what the US brands are like but I used Potterton and I think Glow Worm; the Potterton was the last one installed.

Hope this helps.

[kordts]

Mark,
I installed a Noritz tankless today. The unit cranks out 120 degree water from the factory. The exhaust snaps together, I used one 90, 2 twelve inch straight pipes and a termination birdscreen. I drilled thru the sill plate with a 4-5/8" bit and then silicon caulked around the pipe. When it's on, you can keep your hand on the pipe, the exhaust is hot, but not too hot. Get on the gravy train!

[master plumber mark]

Thought I would post an update on my little experiment.....


I got the Nortiz tankless heater 6.9gal per minute unit



but I have yet to get a decent small gas meter at a decent price...


finding the time to install it has been an issue too.........



in our city their are a few plumbers that have jumped on the bandwagon and are planning to
really go big time into this field.....

I am being told that they have tried them in their own homes and found that their gas bills have been cut in half
during the summer months....


I am wondering 2 things......

without a meter at the water-heater.....

does anyone have a clue as to what a 40- 50 or 75 gallon gas water heater average costs to operate is per month????


does anyone out ther have a clue as to the average
a tankless water heater will use per month???

going back on e-ba/// to look for a meter tonight.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark, you're gonna need something thats at least 7gpm...anything less and the flow could be a dribble when two showers are going and the dishwasher kicks on (they have built in flow restriction to regulate temps depending on useage)
I've done some calling on past customers...verdicts in...the gas bill does go down, also my gas co offers a $300 rebate for tankless over 82% efficient.

I am getting almost as many requests for tankless as regular heaters now. (the price often scares 'em & add the fact that theres more labor for the 3/4" gas feed & vent)
The SS vent is expensive, and if you can't find a convenient spot thats 4' from any opening outside the desired location for the tankless...you'll do well to "desire" another location inside along the foundation.

Also...tankless come with a double wall thimble for the heat going through the foundation...keep the height a minimum 18" above grade and leaves wouldn't be a problem.

Tankless heaters are not condensing, so the vents run hotter...If you really want to sell a customer on efficiency...run an indirect off a condensing boiler...my gas co offers rebates on both of those as well.(up to $1100 for that particular combo)

[GrumpyPlumber]

does anyone have a clue as to what a 40- 50 or 75 gallon gas water heater average costs to operate is per month????

Thats completely open ended...totally depends on useage.
could be $15 a month....could be $1500 with a high maintanence wife.
I just ask my customers to pull out last summers gas bill if they have a boiler...otherwise the most recent bill for comparison.

[master plumber mark]

Bought a 250btu per hour gas meter on e-ba//
tonight for 79.00......not too bad.....

I am going to meter my 75 gal gas hot water heater
and see what it uses for a month or two...




Now I am being told that a 6.9 gallon Nortiz wont
cut the mustard....


gee...thats just great..... just wonderful ..




Well I only paid 50 bucks for it brand new and
about 50 feet of SS pipeing and other accessories that comes with it in the box....



I supppose I will sell it to someone with a one bathroom house





So now I got to haggle with the Takagi rep and see
if I can get a bigger unit....at a discounted price for personal use....




a 3 bathroom house...2 kids, spoiled wife...
and a Mother-in law moving in some day soon ..

should I just shoot myself??..
http://joyerickson.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/mother-in-law-from-hell.jpg?w=300&h=239 (http://joyerickson.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/mother-in-law-from-hell.jpg)


any opinions on
whats the best size and model to go with???





.

[Cass]

Bought a 250btu per hour gas meter on e-ba//
tonight for 79.00......not too bad.....

I am going to meter my 75 gal gas hot water heater
and see what it uses for a month or two...




Now I am being told that a 6.9 gallon Nortiz wont
cut the mustard....


gee...thats just great..... just wonderful ..




Well I only paid 50 bucks for it brand new and
about 50 feet of SS pipeing and other accessories that comes with it in the box....



I supppose I will sell it to someone with a one bathroom house





So now I got to haggle with the Takagi rep and see
if I can get a bigger unit....at a discounted price for personal use....




a 3 bathroom house...2 kids, spoiled wife...
and a Mother-in law moving in some day soon ..

should I just shoot myself??..


any opinions on
whats the best size and model to go with???





.

The very best Model would be a between 1977-1980 and the size would be contunious 36-24-36 :D

With no mother-in-law.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The very best Model would be a between 1977-1980 and the size would be contunious 36-24-36 :D

With no mother-in-law.


Cass, technically you're incorrect, I think he said HIGH maintanence wife.
They come with a completely different factor value.

[R/T Performance]

Well I had my 40 gallon gas hot water heater crap out last month.
I went with a tank-less electric I found on ****.After agonizing over a high efficient control type gas tank type(The report of the controller bombing out after a year scared me away) or tankless gas(The cost made me fall over).
I bought a Titan tankless electric(About 250 with overnight shipping).The company is based in Florida and they are actually built here.
I opened the box to find this little unit (I was like oops that was a waste money it so small no way it works)So off to Lowes to get a 60 amp 220 breaker, 20 ft #6 wire, conduit ,disconnect box and a stick of 1/2 copper.
Roughly another $200.
The little small unit was a snap to install.(Even though I disagree with the compression connections)
Surprisingly it produce a decent volume of very hot water.(it does have a temp knob mine is set 3/4 to the hot no young children here).
I did have 2 issues the first was no constant temp.
Called the guy I got it from and he asked well or city water.
Than explained the .5# negative pressure would turn the unit off and recommend a check valve.(Since I installed it two weeks ago no hot cold issue any more)
The other is that I only have a 100 amp service.
And if you do the math.
Water heater drawing 60 amp+ well 25 amps=85 I have not popped a main but it does dim the lights.
So 200 amp service to be installed soon

[R/T Performance]

Didn't know E B A Y was a bad word here a link to the company site
http://www.titanheater.com/

[GrumpyPlumber]

I have yet to try an electric tankless....so far I've only heard they don't perform very well...but your first-hand account prompts me to look into it more....comes in handy in condo's or hard to vent area's.
Keep us abreast of the bill...VERY curious on that one.

[Terry]

E B A Y
If people want to advertise their products here, they will need to talk to me and pay for that advertising.
I don't offer free advertising.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark,
From memory...so I might be off...shower is 2.5 gpm...lav 1.25...toilet is either 1 or 1.25 (I forget) but thats irrelevant for hot (I usually go with factor values for sizing with the .05 residential demand factor unless it's commercial)
Let's say the KS is 2.5 for sake of argument, tack that on too.
(not up to wandering through the code book to verify...feel free to correct it)
3.75 potential hot GPM per bath....but...not too often is the lav & shower on at the same time.

easiest way to look at it....a 6.9 gpm Noritz will contend with 3 showers and a KS at once -
totalling 10 gpm(worse case scenario), thats 7.5 for the showers alone.
I'd guess that would be tapping it, I have only installed one tankless that was less than a whole home (6.5 gpm or better)
It was the Rheem 4.2 gpm...customer had a Roman tub spout with 3/4" feeds and it slowed down drastically when the hot was turned on, she'd opted for the less expensive model, though I suggested otherwise.
I'd gotten a call from her later that day...we'd initially checked the temp at the KS, and the flow wasn't bad, but later on when she went to pour a bath she noticed it.
I went back and looked at the screen, drained it out from both sides, checked the aerator...no sediment...called the MFG and they verified that it has a flow restriction device to ensure the temp stays where it's set when the demand can't keep up.
I have done one Bosch (Lowes carries them), the customer had already gotten it and I verified that it was state code approved before I installed.
It had a tendancy to jump in temperature wildy as it warmed up..Tankles do that a little, but this one took at least 30-45 seconds to level off.

[master plumber mark]

Their is absoutely no demand for them here in
the mid-west...too hard a water content

I have not heard anything good about them....

I have heard stories about having to install a larger breaker panel......$$$

I have heard that they lime up really fast compaired to
the gas units too so you MUST have a water conditioner.
$$$..


perhaps it will work ok for a few years......

you are already in it pretty deep ....

now its really all just a question of pride as to how far
you are willing to go..... ....

[master plumber mark]

The general feeling I am getting is it is better
to err on the side of overkill with a tankless heater

than to be left standing in a cold shower with
your monkey in your hand...
waiting for the hot water to arrive...

it that about correct???


If I ever sell them I certainly will oversize a system rather than undersize one.....

I dont need the greif.dealing with dis-satisfied customers....and if they dont like it,
they can calll somesone else....I doubt they can beat
my price anyway....even with the smaller unit....

I Got a call into my Takagi rep and I am gonna try
to haggle with them for about a 9-12 gallon
per minute unit.....


it really does not cost that much more to go big
and its basically an issue of wether you will lose efficinecy
with the bigger unit
but gain dependibality.....

[GrumpyPlumber]

The general feeling I am getting is it is better
to err on the side of overkill with a tankless heater

than to be left standing in a cold shower with
your monkey in your hand...
waiting for the hot water to arrive...

it that about correct???


If I ever sell them I certainly will oversize a system rather than undersize one.....

I dont need the greif.dealing with dis-satisfied customers....and if they dont like it,
they can calll somesone else....I doubt they can beat
my price anyway....even with the smaller unit....

I Got a call into my Takagi rep and I am gonna try
to haggle with them for about a 9-12 gallon
per minute unit.....


it really does not cost that much more to go big
and its basically an issue of wether you will lose efficinecy
with the bigger unit
but gain dependibality.....

My thoughts on the overkill...YES, about $300 price difference from the "single bath" model to the "whole home"...I won't risk a bad name over catering to short-term budget..I tell them up front.
I'm hearing you LOUD n' clear on the electrics....not up to being a guinea pig here.
I'm "JONSING" to see how your experiment goes...big time.

[jadnashua]

The biggest factor in the midwest, especially in the northern parts, is the winter incoming water temperature. The things are usually designed for a 70-degree temperature rise at a certain flow. Change the input temperature, it can't raise it to the level it was in the summer at the same flow. Lower the flow, and it can be too hot. As a result, they usually spec them to be installed with a tempering valve to keep from scalding you. Some of them have a modulating heat output to help prevent that, but they are generally not stepless from what I've seen, so at some flows, it could be jumping between one level and another, causing the temperature to fluctuate.

Everyone seems so concerned about standby losses...these are important, but a good tank in a temperate room keeps the delta T losses down when it has good insulation.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Everyone seems so concerned about standby losses...these are important, but a good tank in a temperate room keeps the delta T losses down when it has good insulation.

That alone wouldn't sell them...the avg water htr is 60-65% efficient...the tankless's get upwards of 84%...when running.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The very best Model would be a between 1977-1980 and the size would be contunious 36-24-36 :D

With no mother-in-law.

I just now caught that...I really, really like those figures...thats an EXCELLENT model.

[jadnashua]

I went with an indirect, since I had the boiler anyways...nominally 94% efficient.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I went with an indirect, since I had the boiler anyways...nominally 94% efficient.

Another EXCELLENT alternative...done a few of those this year too....gas co offers the same rebate as tankless too.
The advantage is the two following have a lifetime warranty:
Superstor, Boilermate...I'd guess you did the Superstor...just a hunch

[jadnashua]

SuperStor Ultra with the smallest Buderus...so far, so good.

[GrumpyPlumber]

SuperStor Ultra with the smallest Buderus...so far, so good.
And of course...using a Taco SR-501 for the priority (ok...maybe a 504 if you have only two other zones)

[jay_sfb]

That alone wouldn't sell them...the avg water htr is 60-65% efficient...the tankless's get upwards of 84%...when running.
I did a lot of research on HE direct-vents and tankless a few months ago when I was first scoping my renovation. The most consistent criticism of tankless was the risk of no heat/inconsistent heat at low flow. In your opinion, is this overstated?

I also ran across the AO Smith Vertex PV. They claim 90% efficiency (versus 67% for their own Promax line). My plumber checked with his distributor, and the price is nearly double the next highest model. Still, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Vertex, or if their claim is even valid.

Great discussion, BTW. I like the idea of tankless, but was discouraged when I learned about low flow performance, as well as the calculated savings vs an HE direct vent gas-fueld storage model (apparently, the total OPEX of the storage is still lower over the long term than tankless, especially when factoring in the unit and installation cost differences). This is why I am also interested in seeing the results of the "noble experiment"; it would be nice to have some hard, real-world numbers to point to for reference.

With thanks,

Jay

[GrumpyPlumber]

I did a lot of research on HE direct-vents and tankless a few months ago when I was first scoping my renovation. The most consistent criticism of tankless was the risk of no heat/inconsistent heat at low flow. In your opinion, is this overstated?

I have only seen one name with a noticeable problem, Bosch...I was startled by it's irratic temp changes for the first minute or two....luckily for me it was purchased by the customer. (I'm gunshy about pawning new nam4es on customers without experience orr research)
Most of them state they won't kick on till you have at least a .5 gpm flow rate give or take a few hundreths of a GPM.


I also ran across the AO Smith Vertex PV. They claim 90% efficiency (versus 67% for their own Promax line). My plumber checked with his distributor, and the price is nearly double the next highest model. Still, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with the Vertex, or if their claim is even valid.

Great discussion, BTW. I like the idea of tankless, but was discouraged when I learned about low flow performance, as well as the calculated savings vs an HE direct vent gas-fueld storage model (apparently, the total OPEX of the storage is still lower over the long term than tankless, especially when factoring in the unit and installation cost differences). This is why I am also interested in seeing the results of the "noble experiment"; it would be nice to have some hard, real-world numbers to point to for reference.

With thanks,

Jay
If you have the budget for the best option for efficiency...go with a condensing boiler & DHW/indirect storage tank set-up.
If you're just on the market for an efficient water heater...tankless is the best. (Though A.O. Smith 90% does get my attention, your still paying to heat water that sits there)
You have to look at the ins and outs on each name...Paloma/Rheem for example max out at 120 (though I think that can be modified...but that effects the efficiency)
Sort through Rinnai, Takagi, Noritz, Rheem (same MFG as Paloma)...there are quite a few more, but those are the ones I know to be dependable...as for Bosch - they're the cheapest...but, er...let's give them a few years to fine tune things.

[master plumber mark]

I apologise that my experimient
its certainly not on the fast track.

with a vacation comming up and being very
busy at work......


having a little difficulty with my pay pal
account and I cant seem to buy that damn
gas meter , without a dog fight......

installing it with a tee a couple of stops or a
bypass to check either the 75 or the tankless
is no big deal.....

its mostly finding the time to get motivated.

when you got a perfectly good 75 gal in place its
hard to explain to the wife why you are screwing up
the laundry room.....

probably will be monitoring the 75 gallon
unit by Aug1st...thats .no big deal

probably will have the tankless installed by
Sept 1 if I can obtain one at a discounted price.

that is the plan

[jay_sfb]

Talk about coincidence -- and I suspect this will make GP particularly itchy -- but DIYNetworks recently ran an episode on pulling an old tank heater and replacing it with an electric tankless. This is particularly interesting to me, since the old system was gas and the new one is electric (SETS). I seem to recall reading that an electric tankless is not as cost-effective as a modern HE gas tank; but I can't locate that reference now, and the program never really discussed the difference. They did indicate that the new system required an upgrade to the electrical to the tune of adding a -dedicated- 100A circuit. This is not the solution for me, though I am planning on upgrading from my current 70A shortly :o... jay

[GrumpyPlumber]

Right...I already looked into a SETS (made by Noritz if I recall...tried looking it up and nothing for sets...may be discontinued?!) for a condo owner that couldn't add venting aside from the natural draft already in a closet through the roof.
The supplier told me he was better off with his draft type, weighing all costs and the fact that electric tankless's aren't nearly as good as the gas.

[master plumber mark]

what I have read abou the electric tankless is you

that they will have a tendencey to lime up very quickly
just like the electric water heaters seem to do over time...

[molo]

There has been no discussion of how gas tankless units handle hard water. We have very hard water here. Someone told me that tankless can't handle that. Is that true for electric and gas tankless?

Molo

[GrumpyPlumber]

There has been no discussion of how gas tankless units handle hard water. We have very hard water here. Someone told me that tankless can't handle that. Is that true for electric and gas tankless?

Molo


Rumor has it hard water is rough on the exchangers.
But most tankless's come with a ten year warranty.

[Cass]

They without a softener would require weekly/monthly maintenance in a hard water.

I would think a softener would be mandatory in a hard water area to prevent repeated call backs due to obviously foreseen problems with out one, and would still require some periodic maintenance.

[master plumber mark]

Rumor has it hard water is rough on the exchangers.
But most tankless's come with a ten year warranty.


Read the fine print in all tankless warranties
that ten year warranty is void if you have water
harder than 11 parts.


Our CITY WATER in INDY is 20..

you need a water conditioner or the warranty is VOID.


http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

[jadnashua]

Keep in mind how a tankless system works...the water is heated from the cold supply to useful (hopefully!) hot supply in the course of a second or so as it runs through the heat exchanger. To do this, the heat exchanger must be VERY hot. The hotter the surface, the more likely you will precipitate out any disolved minerals. This takes fairly massive amounts of power which is why the electric requires a very significant supply, and most gas units require at least a 1" gas supply line. Keep in mind most home stoves only need 1/2" pipe and the volume available by doubling the size isn't linear, a 1" pipe can carry 4x as much gas...think of your stove with all burners on, along with the oven, times 4 and you get the idea.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Read the fine print in all tankless warranties
that ten year warranty is void if you have water
harder than 11 parts.


Our CITY WATER in INDY is 20..

you need a water conditioner or the warranty is VOID.


http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/


Though I don't think our water is that bad, I'm looking into this.
Also, any particular model/models that applies to?

[jay_sfb]

Right...I already looked into a SETS (made by Noritz if I recall...tried looking it up and nothing for sets...may be discontinued?!)
The website listed from the DIY program is www.buytankless.com


The supplier told me he was better off with his draft type, weighing all costs and the fact that electric tankless's aren't nearly as good as the gas.
And so the reason why I am so interested in this experiment. I have gas and would consider having the service upgraded for a tankless if I could get a sense of how much it costs to operate compared to storage.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The website listed from the DIY program is www.buytankless.com


And so the reason why I am so interested in this experiment. I have gas and would consider having the service upgraded for a tankless if I could get a sense of how much it costs to operate compared to storage.


Jay, usually the only upgrade is cutting in a 3/4" line for the tankless, unless you're going with a smaller unit which is a 1/2" feed like the existing tank type (I wouldn't recommend...flow isn't good on those).
If you have a 3/4" gas main and other fixtures already connected, like a boiler...the you will have to upgrade.
Thank you for the link...I did a websearch for "Sets" and came up empty.

[master plumber mark]

Though I don't think our water is that bad, I'm looking into this.
Also, any particular model/models that applies to?

It applies to ALL makes and Models..

get out a magnifying glass and read the fine print on one
sometime ...........

the one that was tested by Bradford white in that article
popsted on my site was made by Rennia for Bradford White.
..and tested sometime in 05....



Along lake Michigan, I have heard that the water
is about a .03 of hardness.........that is pristene.......

The midwest has nasty water from .18 all the
way up to off the scale on well water....
our water is from the bowells of the earth


Other parts of the country have good and bad.....

people dont realize that what works great in
Oregon, Texas or Georgia with luke-warm water
all year long might not work well with incomming
water almost so cold its slush.. in the winter time.....




of course they dont realize it till its too late


Regionally.....their are too may things to factor into a
" generic equation" as how well it will work
all across the USA.


here is a little equation for you........


take the lowest temp for incomming water
take the hardness--factor in the expence of how often needing to de-lime the unit

take the volume flow rate necessary
add the install costs
tripple the cost over a tank type....

then figure out what you are gonna save over
10 years??

Coldness x Hardness x Volume x install costs x $$$ x 10years


=== ??????




now does this have your little head spinning??????


My motto....
if you cant convince them with facts
baffle them with .........
...

[GrumpyPlumber]

now does this have your little head spinning??????



If you could just tell the better half that...I'd be all set.

[Alex47]

I had a Noritz N-69M-OD installed a couple of months ago.

I am remodeling the utility/mud room, and getting the old heater out of there gives me room for front loader washer and dryer on the outside wall.

This is the only part of the remodel I wanted to hire out. Utility company put in the new gas meter for no charge (2lb service). I had a local mechanical contractor come out and install the heater, new gas line for dryer for 2000 including the heater. Federal tax credit is $300, local utility gave me a check for 350 for putting in an efficient gas heater. So for 1500-1600, I got more space in the house, and a more efficient unit.

The past 2 months, my gas bill has been about 40% of what it normally would be (most of the summer we use the grill, so hot water is the only real gas use). This only = about 15.00 month in savings, but:

1500-1600.00
1) More space in a house where space is at a premium. (This was really the biggest plus for me, any utility savings is just gravy)
2) Lower gas bill.
3) Hot water lasts forever.
4) Remote is cool.
5) Will enable me to solve the problem of a dryer on an inside wall with a 30' vent (2 sharp angles). This should also cut down utilities.

I had a 2 plumbers give estimates on relocating a tank heater about 10' into the garage (they did not do tankless, for some reason). They both wanted to put in a new vent (I would be responsible for flashing, etc. at roof). For this, and re-routing plumbing and gas, their bids were about the same (1450 and 1600).

For me this decision was a no-brainer, and I don't regret it at all.

**Outside unit requires no venting, which saves on the materials/install.
**There is a yearly maint. to do, but really amounts to the equivalent of cleaning out a really big coffee machine.

The one thing I do think about is waiting on repair parts when it breaks down. I'm in north central Florida though, so 6 months out of the year, I can probably rough it if I need to.

[molo]

Please tell us what the annual maintenance consists of..

TIa,
Molo

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Less than 5% of tankless owners can effectively maintain their product.

Less than 1% of tankless owners can accurately diagnose and troubleshoot, repair their product.

Out of the 10% of tankless owners out there, 8% comment in public view of message boards/forums of their product.


That leaves 92% of the susceptible viewing and buying public to believe and see everything they hear about these.....thinking their application works in any area across the states. That's just not true.

Want proof of these numbers? Gauge every plumbing forum on the internet of the percentile of related topics regarding these products over the all subject matters covered. You'll find a great deal of speak of those trying to sell it....then it leads down quickly to the over analyzers with their goofball statistics and equations......then you got the actual product owners. That's a small fraction but it's growing. I love the fact that these "green" followers are willing to spend hours, days sitting looking out their front window waiting, dreaming for the UPS man to bring their control module or "special part" from china or korea to get their buzz box up and back running while the wife is contemplating signing the divorce decree. Keep up the good work!!

In my area the water temperature incoming can get as low as 42 degrees.

Alex47's situation is ideal; ground temperature is higher by far....the tankless works less, has less degree of rise to overcome. Also....it can be an outside mount which would never fly in KY OH IND.

Sell me a sow's ear and I'll make you a purse.

[George R]

HA! Someone wake up Master Plumber Mark. I'm sure he'll want to chime in again.

[frenchelectrican]

Hello guys i am not sure where i will fit in here but anyway here we go now

I know few of you did comment about the tankless electric water heaters units

let me reflect my experince as electrician working on few resdentailas and commercal area as well .

i know there are quite few diffrent size on tankless electric waterheater but IMO it should be classifed as point of use or whole house useage it can reflect the diffrence how it can be used i do understand about the gaz fired units.

I will give you a quick example here one whole house tankless electric water heater this is manufactred by Bosch

I know this is petty good unit IMO but the shocker for most comuster is the hookup on electrical side that what threw them off the curve

If i recalled it right one unit did rated at 24 KW [ same power as 3 average sized stove running full power at the same time ] and the comuster brought it and one plummer hook up but he refuse to touch the electrical side which i dont blame him for that because the complex of connections.

anyway this home have exsting 200 amp service and the whole house tankless waterheater requied 120 amp total [ 3 -40 amp circuits ] [ the real load is total of 24 KW = 100 amp @ 240 volts ]
and to get it working propely i talk to the comuster to hevey up [ upsizeing ] to 400 amp service which it was not cheap it was about 6500 bucks for new breaker box and metering box and related assorted wiring etc.

got it running it was working fine for while but the serious side effect was the lights in the house was flickering when the tankless heater cycling to match the flow demand of the water supply and it did took out the powercompany transfomer out of service by overloading pretty bad that transforemer was sized 25 KW and it was serving at least 6 house on this one and it burn up by overloading pretty hard .

after few months the owners were not happy with it they were not really saving any cost at all seems it was about the same rate as old storage tank heater was and asked me to remove it and they converted to gas tankless and seems they get better performaice than electric unit did dish out

if you have more quetion related to electric tankless waterheater please do post it here

Merci , Marc

[master plumber mark]

WOW...
You are saying that some fool spent that much just
to upgrade their electrical panel to use one of those
electric water heaters???

and to top this off they already had gas in their home???

were they planning on living in that home till 2099??
It would probably take that long just to break even..

Was this Electrical Tankless system something that someone
sold them of just some half-cocked idea that found on the internet???

I bet the plumber that installed the heater
tried his best to talk them out of this --but they would not listen.






I am sorry that I have been draggign my feet on this
tankless experiment...
the summers has been too hot and I have been too busy..


I got the nortz 6.9 gallon tankless heater, but I dont think
its going to be big enough for my house, still trying to get a larger one

I will try to get myself in high gear and buy the gas meter to see what I do use every month on the heater I presently own.

[Cass]

Glad to hear things have picked up for you.

[master plumber mark]

Cass its still pretty slow....

more like we are in a holding pattern waiting on
someone in government to finally decide on what property taxes will be set at ....



the problem in the state right now is no one has any confidence in the leaders...
both in the city of Indy and on the state wide front..

The mayor of INDY has gotten people so mad that
he presently has 6 full time body guards..



so no one is spending a dime...



I should have said ..
I have been too lazy to work on my experiment..

[Alex47]

I'm not trying to sell anybody on anything, but I'm not apologetic for the fact that so far, I really like the system.

Yes, it's warmer outside in Florida, and climate should inform a decision to install an outside heater....that's why I included that detail.

Maybe 4-5 years from now I'll have a different opinion, but right now....I'd do the same thing for sure.

My choice was primarily made for the following reasons:

1) cost compared to moving a standard tank heater
2) could the tankless keep up performance-wise
3) I needed that inside space for my dryer install, there was no other location suitable.

Again, this is just my case, and my thoughts on #2 could change....but so far, no complaints.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Alex47


Wasn't accusing you of selling.....I clarified you was an actual product owner.

I just make a point to let it be known that what works in florida doesn't always work in KY or OH or IND.......or any area or region that has extreme low/cold weather temperatures and the buying public needs to be aware of this legit consideration.

And if you have hard water? < Another consideration of how much those compartments lime up and rob the efficiency over time or between cleaning intervals.

The majority of people in my area when it comes to hot water..........replace/repair the water heater when it doesn't provide. Maintenance of any kind is usually non-existent.

That's why I see simple leaks above the tank that literally ate a hole in the top of the tank.....left for years.

It's a non-priority.....just like a lot of things in the home. There are "some" though that are attentive to their mechanical systems....and like I said...they make their opinions known.

This is the educated public on these matters at hand. The rest mainly run with it as an expenditure when it breaks and forget about it for another 5 to 13 years with them being the first ones to call you the second no hot water is in the equation.

[master plumber mark]

I apologise that I
have been dragging my feet on this experiment ...

due to delays trying to get
the man on E-bay to accept a busines check for
his gas meter....still have not got the meter...

going to have to get a money order
from the POST OFFICE ONLY to please the s.o.b.

cant give him a bank draft , ect ect...

so once I jump these hurdels, we are game on again

[frenchie]

Sign up with Paypal, Mark - it's the best thing for E-bay purchases. You can link it to any checking account you want.

[tilemom]

HI- I have a gas Noritz tankless installed in our house...it is in the basement by the garage, vented to the outside. Yes, we have continuous hot water --after sometimes up to 4 mins of waiting for it to arrive ( Brrrr) AND when we all of a sudden have a burst of freezing cold water ( again, Brrr). I had it installed because it seemed like the answer to our problem at Christmas when we have 15 people trying to take showers.

What gives? it has been like this since day one. I had the installer guys come back 3 times...

Noritz has been of no help. Even the shower on the same level as the heater and that is only about 15 feet away has problems.
Any thoughts? I wish that i hadn't gotten rid of the perfectly working gas water heater...

HEEELLLLLLPPPPP!!!!

Memmy

[master plumber mark]

I should use pay pal again, but its nothing but trouble...


TILEMOM

.


I would like to hear more about that Nortiz unit and what size it is....

I dont want to critize you or rub your troubles in your face...

just want to hear your story ...what size unit you have, ect....

thank you

[frenchelectrican]

i will like to heard this story as well i am wondering about that too :eek:


Mark ,, I am not sure but i just cant pinpoint right but i have a feeling there were no restrictor flow gimzo or the water supply is way too cold for this unit to handle and the other possiblty but until Tilemom can get more info on this unit.

i was thinking that the unit is too small or improply calberated for wrong gas fuel like natural gas vs LPG [ both have diffrent port nozzle size and pressure as well ] but right now i just can't say all of it until we hear from her

Merci , Marc

[tilemom]

I found the booklet and model no.

Noritz model N-063M/ N-063S

on the face plate of the unit is says that the recovery rate is 193 gallons/hour

any thoughts? Oh, propane gas...and I live in NC...the outside temp makes no difference what so ever to the amount of time it takes for the water to get hot.

The guys came out, shortly after installing the unit, and cleaned the valve filter. No change. No other appliances use the propane. I have gas logs, but they are never used. It doesn't make any difference if I open one tap or two or every tap in the house!

I just looked at the receipt...I have had this crazy unit for 2 and 1/2 years. Yikes~!!!

[Cass]

Have they checked the water pressure. It is possible that there is so much water going through the unit it can't keep up.


I found the booklet and model no.

Noritz model N-063M/ N-063S

on the face plate of the unit is says that the recovery rate is 193 gallons/hour

any thoughts? Oh, propane gas...and I live in NC...the outside temp makes no difference what so ever to the amount of time it takes for the water to get hot.

The guys came out, shortly after installing the unit, and cleaned the valve filter. No change. No other appliances use the propane. I have gas logs, but they are never used. It doesn't make any difference if I open one tap or two or every tap in the house!

I just looked at the receipt...I have had this crazy unit for 2 and 1/2 years. Yikes~!!!

[master plumber mark]

I feel I owe it to all the un-suspecting souls out
there to get my butt in gear and at least measure how
much my 75 gallon Brad White heater uses ..

so after about 30 minutes of updateing,,, I got the meter
bought on E- approx cost 89.00

anyone that would pay between 2000 and $ 6500 plus the unit itself to
install an electric or gas tankelss water-heater might find this experiment a
god-send and very helpful....

perhaps I should sell this experiment to be downloaded
like an e-book for the low low price of 3 installments of only 19.95 master card, visa and pay pal accepted...

if they are crazy enough to jump like lemmings and
pay $6500 for junk that they throw away in 2 years,

this information could be
priceless...???


http://images.andale.com/f2/115/124/1581944/1130199462974_Gas_Meter.jpg (http://cgi.****.com/ws/****ISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160154765465&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:PIC&ih=006#****photohosting)

[frenchelectrican]

Mark:

I am thinking you are on the right idea to compare tankless vs the tank water heater on normal useage not the lab tested and i feel it will be better have a unbaised test to prove which will performed better for the "X" amout of fuel to heat up the water for "X" amount of water as well.

let us know how you come out on this one

Merci , Marc

[GrumpyPlumber]

Yeah!
I figured this topic was long gone, have at it Mark.

[tilemom]

Well- I can say that too much water pressure is NOT the problem...perhaps too little is, though...

[master plumber mark]

The Meter should be here soon...

Hooking it up should be a snap....

Now what should I test for???

I am thinking about testing the temp first
mine is about 135

I am thinking about testing the temp comming out at all faucets

I am thinking about takeing a stop watch and
seeing how long it takes to get water to all of the furtherst
faucet in the house...

Going to take softness samples of the water...


I am also considering a "bitch factor"
on a scale from .....one through ten.....

One being totally satisfied with life and no problems


and ten being --get the damn thing out of this house or I am going to divorce your sorry ass


can anyone think of anything else I should factor in here???

[GrumpyPlumber]

Yes, time.
How long it takes for hot water from the tankless opposed to the tank, we know there'll be a longer wait, but how long?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Run this unit for one year, two years, three years without any maintenance and cleaning of the compartment.


That will be the exact same way the majority of property owners treat their plumbing/water heaters.


The put it in and forget it crowd doesn't disappear just because something fast and easy has come their way.


Also, "act" like that unit just broke. Start the process of calling the mfg. and ask them to help you with it. Tell them that you are NOT a plumber and don't have a clue how to fix it. You're actually being honest because this is the exact same situation that the majority of property owners are in: they are not plumbers and they are not familiar with their new wall gadget.

Ryan Seacrest.................out!

[master plumber mark]

I have already ran the Brad white 75 gallon
gas heater for two years without doing a thing to it
we keep it at 130-135.....

its pretty robust....it sort of makes
the pours open up like a sauna when it hits ya..

it does not cost a dime to put a garden hose in it and blow out some lime that is no big deal to do.....

I probably should check the anode rod.....
but the general public does not do either .......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

IN THE MIDWEST I suppose you could factor in at least one de-limeing with a tankless......

Are their any ideas what is that worth to do the pump , vinegar and
how much time is involved???? $150--$200

I probably will run the test on the Brad White for about
3 months....
--------------------------------------------------------------------

also I got to factor in the incomming water temp going into heater thourgh the winter months.....

Perhaps it would be best to install the Tankless first while the water is still fairley warm.....just to give it half a chance...

I will have to somehow keep it fair

I already have the Nortiz 6.9 but I dont know if it will cut the mustard with a 2 1/2 bathroom house

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark, other good point...
How many hot fixtures at one time before flow reduces or temp drops.

[jadnashua]

One of the complaints is how much the water tempurature can change with changes in the volume. Sometimes you only want a trickle of hot - it can become very hot. This may be a significant difference from medium or full-flow temps. This is why they sometimes specify a tempering valve.

Do the installation instructions specify a flow restrictor, or is it built-in?

Also note the time it takes to fill the tub with the restrictor in there. A thermostatically controlled tub/shower valve might be a very helpful addition for both safety and comfort.

[talkingdog]

JADP, but on the Japanese market, where tankless once ruled, everybody is switching over to heat pumps with 300 liter tanks so that they can take advantage of cheap off-peak electricity. The late night electricity costs about 1/6 of the daytime rate. These units start at about $2000.

People with RFH or otherwise heavy demand for hot water will install one of Honda's gas-powered Micro CHP units, which at current gas rates is competitive with a heat pump and will provide nearly as much heat on demand as a tankless. These are about twice the price of heat pumps. The Micro CHP has a generator built into it that runs off the waste heat that would normally be lost, and the advantage of this is that you get to sell the juice you generate to the power company at peak-rate charges, retail, and this is a big advantage if you are running the RFH flat out during the day.

[statjunk]

Mark,

Would you consider buying a second home close buy to make the test more fair?

You might also want to sponsor a family to live in the house. It would be pretty tough to take twice as many showers and wash twice as many dishes.

Just a thought! LOL.

Tom

P.S. I'm interested in the outcome of the test keep it going.

[patrick88]

just installed a Rinnai tankless the other day don't know the spec's but we only charged $2,600 for the install. It was a propane and the home owners had an old power vented propane tank heater. It went very well and I have been told by my bosses we have installed about 7 total.

It is very easy to say this product is no good or another is better because of one reason or another. Every part of the country has many different reasons why one product is better or worse. I have great water at my house (well water) but friends on the other side of town have sucky water. If a tankless water heater is no good because of hard water well how are the other fixtures doing with the hard water. I have seen some great fixtures destroyed from hard water and the home owners will not or can not install proper filters, or softeners. What works in one part of town or country may not work in another. That is why knowing all the facts as a pro is the most important part of being a plumber.

I used to install symmons tub/shower valves when i lived in Essex county Mass. but out in Hampden county they get destroyed from the iron in the water. Does this make symmons valves crap? No it just says i needed to find something that works here.

Now if every plumber in every county in every state did the same test as Master Plumber Mark then we might have a good idea of what works best in your city or town.

Just wanted to give my $.02.

Great thread.

[master plumber mark]

honestly ,, it really does not matter where you
put one in... the btu cost can be factored in within
a pretty close range....

I am testing for cost and efficinecy differences with my trusty gas meter...

then I am gonna try to figure out how many years it will take before that 2600 invenstmet will pay off.......

I have Delta 1500 pressure balanced valves in the home
and the high maintaince wife.....

and other little factors like ease of operatioin
ect, ect... how long it takes to get hot water
60 feet away....


Of course this state is ground zero for nasty water,
but My CLACK water conditioner should make
the water at alomst 0 hardness....

and dont forget the cold water in the winter time....
about 48 degrees and lower.....


If it can work here without too much in-convienance,
and it acutally saves money and you have an eventual payback.....

then its good about anywhere.....

[master plumber mark]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f0/Rod_Serling1.jpg/200px-Rod_Serling1.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rod_Serling1.jpg)

Submitted for your viewing approval ....and consideration....

one over-weight plumber with nothing else better to do today
while being stuck baby- sitting two 6 year old girls untill 7 pm tonight

on a beautiful Sunday morning in indianapois indiana....

one new gas meter bought off e-b// for 89.00.

the meter is pre-tested and pre-set at 6.2 btus ....

One 2 year old 75 gallon gas Bradford White heater already hot
and the unit is covered by a blanket.......


now how many cubic feet of gas will it take to heat the water
for one week to two months.....????

inquireing minds want to know... sept 16,, 2007

(I dont get out very much....)


Now after about 4 months....I plan to switch to a tankless water
heater Probably a TAKAGI or Rheem just to see how it performs in
basically the same conditions.......

started experiment with 6.6 btu at high noon.

http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC03577.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10205) http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC03583.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10206)

I am curious as to how much this thing will spin in an hour.....

how much the piolit light actually uses per day

as you can see it goes by 10ths of a btu......

probably wont come on today to re-heat till tonight.......

[Bob NH]

Mark,
You need to figure out what that calibration is, and compare it with your regular gas meter. 6.2 and 6.6 BTUs on the meter are not correct.

It is probably calibrated in Cubic feet, or maybe 1000's of cubic feet. One cubic foot is about 1000 BTUs.

Your gas company probably bills you in Therms. One Therm is 100,000 BTUs, which is about 100 cubic feet. One Therm may cost $1.50 to $2.00.

[master plumber mark]

Bob...thank you for the informaion

I will find out more about the meter from the
person I bought it from...

and I will get out my gas bill, or call the gas compnay

when it came out of the box it was factory tested
and run through its paces to 6.2


So after I installed it and blew out the meter itself and
fired up the gas heater it moved to 6.6


it is now at about 7.6

I wonder how much that piolit light
actually cost me over the last 3 hours....???


any advice on how to calculate it is appreciated...

just because I can rig up a gas meter dont mean
I know what the hell I am talking about...lol


Brand New Warehouse Stock. Note:
All meters show 4-8 cu ft of useage right out of the box.
This is from the factory calibration run performed just prior to packaging at the factory.

[Bob NH]

Brand New Warehouse Stock. Note:
All meters show 4-8 cu ft of useage right out of the box.
This is from the factory calibration run performed just prior to packaging at the factory.

EDIT: I just looked closely at the picture and it says that it is rated in Cubic Ft.

From the quoted statement, if that is from where you got it, then I suspect that the 6.2 was cubic ft. Since there are about 100 cubic ft in a Therm, and the price of one Therm is about $2.00, each cubic ft of gas (as from 6.2 to 7.2 on the meter, would be about $0.02.

If you have a 30,000 BTU per hour water heater, then I suspect that it will use about 1 cubic ft in 2 minutes when it is firing. You could check that by running enough hot water to get it firing for a short time.

[master plumber mark]

I dont know if this is ok.....but here it is.....

I am waiting for the fellow to reply to my questions..

you should be able to look up the meter through this link.

http://myworld.****.com/hopefulwon/

http://cgi.****.com/ws/****ISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=160154765465&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=006

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark, geesh...lets simplify this!!!!

Make sure NOTHING else in the house is running on the gas, check your houses gas meter reading and write it down, then check the tankless's.
Start the tankless and run it for a few.
Check both meters, subtract the reading you get on your main and cross referrence to the tankless meter.
Your houses meter will read CF (cubic feet), do some simple math if the two readings don't jive.

[GrumpyPlumber]

"Meet Mr. MasterPlumberMark....
Ordinary disgruntled plumber by day....Super-cyber Plumber by night.
He's about to embark on a mission, not some ordinary mission, but one of utmost importance that even he doesn't know what will bring him to...
He's about to embark on a mission in ....THE TWILIGHT ZONE!"

[Dunbar Plumbing]

This might end up on Montel.......better yet, Oprah.

MPM is goin 2897

[GrumpyPlumber]

This might end up on Montel.......better yet, Oprah.

MPM is goin 2897

Springer?
Could we aspire?

[master plumber mark]

Grumpy, read the posts closer....

I dont think I can make it any simpler...
now its all just figuring the math on the btus



Yes....I had a lot of time on my hands today...

baby sitting 2 ..6 year old girls...
that was pretty dull , but I took them for a walk to
the local store down a few blocks for candy ...your basic parenting

from 12 till 6 with not much else to do....


did a little boookwork, faxed some bills ect.....



anyway.....the meter is in the pic.... you can see
at what point it started reading my gas to only
the 75 gallon 75,000btu brad white heater....
at 6.6



you can see my laundry room..the water heater and
how I installed the meter on the floor

and nothing else is on that 3/4 line

with only the piolit light going it went from 6.6
to 8.4 at from 12 to 6 this evening.....


I am trying to keep this simple and it seems fairley easy

so once I figure out the math its no big deal to
know what a 75 gal heater average costs are per month.

bob newhart seems to have a handle on that already for me.

[GrumpyPlumber]

<---Nerd.

Mark, this is where our approaches would differ....
BTU = energy to heat 1 lb water one degree, assume incoming water is 40
1 gallon of water is 8.33 lbs X 90 (to 130 hot) = 749.7 BTU
Surface area of a 75 gal cylinder = 27.9936 (28 sq feet)
Code requires WH to have a min of no greater than 15btu heat loss per hour
per sq foot of surface area so -

-28 X 15= 420 BTU per hour on a 75 gal tank @ stand-by = 10,080 BTU/day

-KS faucet = 1.5 gpm (hot alone) Used lets say 1/2 hour/day for dishes etc
= approximately 45 gal/day

-Shower 2.5 gpm (1.25 for hot) with a family of 4 @ 15 min apiece
= 75 gal/day
-Tub, ok, lets toss in a 60 gal bath each day for the mrs
-Laundry, say one load/day uses 30 gal hot
-Lav/misc. Lav's flow @ 1.25 gpm lets say it's used 8 times/day @ a minute
each .63 gpm X 8 = 5 gal/day

thats 45 gal + 75 + 60 + 30 + 5 = 215 gal/day
215 gallons take 161,185.5 btu to heat to 130 from 40,
tank heater is 60% efficient so it takes an actual 268,642.5 btu house/day
add 10,080 BTU for stand-by with the 60% effiiciency offset for
16,800 btu/day.
Thats 285,442.5 BTU per day used for a tank type
Tankless is 85% efficient which means it uses 189,630 BTU /day for 215 gal.
In other words:
a tank uses 8,563,275 btu or 85.63275 therms/month (30 day)
tankless ~~5,688,900 btu or 56.88900 therms/month

My area a therm is approximately $1.50 ...
tank = $128.45/month
tankless = $ 85.34 A family of four saves $ 43.11/month
$ 517.32 /year
$ 5,173.20 /10 years (warranty)

Tankless installed = $3000.00 - $5173.20 = -$2173.20 (saved money)
50 gal Tank installed = $ 850.00 (draft) + 5,173.20 = +$6023.20 (10 year)
50 gal powervented = $1250.00 (still 60%) = +$6423.00 (10 year)

[Old Dog]

FWIW,demand heaters are very popular here.Many people live off grid.
Most are using rainwater catchment systems so there is not a hard water problem.Propane gas is what is used for the most part.People tell me they like the fact that it only uses gas when they use hot water.I do hear the complaint about temp problems if they are using water at a couple of fixtures.
I know of one new house that had 3 demand heaters installed.One in each bathroom and one to take care of the kitchen and laundry.The owner said his gas bill for propane was less than half what it was on his previous house.
Electric is very expensive here so people have gravitated toward these heaters.I"m changing over to a gas stove and heater in the very near future myself...

[master plumber mark]

Grumpy wrote
My area a therm is approximately $1.50 ...
tank = $128.45/month
tankless = $ 85.34 A family of four saves $ 43.11/month
$ 517.32 /year
$ 5,173.20 /10 years (warranty)

Tankless installed = $3000.00 - $5173.20 = -$2173.20 (saved money)
50 gal Tank installed = $ 850.00 (draft) + 5,173.20 = +$6023.20 (10 year)
50 gal powervented = $1250.00 (still 60%) = +$6423.00 (10 year)


Grumpy....
If you had it all figured out, why didnt you tell me this before I went and bought the gas meter???

your figures sound like "fuzzy math " to me....
but of course that is why I am fooling with
the whole thing in the first place.....

I got to prove it to myself.... what a 75 gal
gas water heater costs per month to run

I will test the temp of my hot water tonight,
and the incomming water temp for kicks too...

if the tankless save 45 bucks a month ok, great

I suppose that means I got another 45 bucks to pour into my gas tank...

I will run out and buy one tomorrow

[GrumpyPlumber]

Grumpy....
If you had it all figured out, why didnt you tell me this before I went and bought the gas meter???


What? And ruin all the fun?!?!?


your figures sound like "fuzzy math " to me....
but of course that is why I am fooling with
[/SIZE][/B]

Absolutely fuzzy!
I might be a nerd, but I never said I was a smart one.
one example, I knowingly over-estimated the cost of a therm for my area @ 1.50...it's slightly less and I'm pretty sure my area is more expensive relative to the norm.
If one figure in my whole scenario is off, it's multiplied by 3,653...however the rough savings should be right on in terms of percentages.
The actual figures I typed are just for an example of what you'd save @ 215 gallons of hot per day, most likely even your family uses less.
Duly note though, even half that amount would break the cost of a tankless vs tank type within the warranty period.
Also, I didn't factor in the fed tax credit of $300 (which means $75-$100 in real money for most tax brackets) and local gas companies offer a $300 cash rebate for installing them here in New England.
Bottom line is YOUR method will be the most accurate.

[Bob NH]

Your summer gas bill should be almost all water heating. The amount used for cooking should be negligable.

So you could compare your demand (Therms) with Grumpy's 85 Therms per month.

I think the hot water demands are excessive. The kitchen faucet (45), laundry (30), and Mrs bath (60) in addition to shower are probably 2 times what the those uses would be in a real family.

[statjunk]

Bob,

Grumpy is simply thorough. He over engineers most things. He also likes the ladies clean!

Tom

[jadnashua]

As a reference, I used 15 therms last month of gas with an indirect, gas dryer, stove, barbeque. The previous year, I used 18 therms for the same month. The heat was from a Trianco Heatmaker that is a hybrid tankless (87% efficient boiler). I've used my new barbeque more than the older one, letting it run for at least an hour baking potatoes, that I didn't do last year.

[Furd]

I use about ten therms a month for water heating. I live alone, like long showers, occasionally use a 6-foot long whirlpool tub, and have a 50 gallon Kenmore Power Miser 6 water heater with a continuous pilot.

I did remove the restrictor from my shower head but I also use the volume adjustment of my Moen shower valve.

[master plumber mark]

[quote=Bob NH]Your summer gas bill should be almost all water heating. The amount used for cooking should be negligable.

So you could compare your demand (Therms) with Grumpy's 85 Therms per month.


you are not accounting for the GAS DRYER in the home like I got....

my wife runs the gas dryer sometimes for 5 ++ hours per day.... lots of laundry to do

that is why I got the meter...to monitor the heater only

now all I got to do is wait for the fellow I bought it from to answer my questions...


as far as factoring in a 300 dolllar credit, you also got to factor in
yearly maintaince on a tankless heater.....

what is that worth???

[GrumpyPlumber]

yearly maintaince on a tankless heater.....
what is that worth???

How much is a bottle of vinegar, a small pump & a double ender going for these days?
About as difficult and time consuming as flushing a tank type.


I think the hot water demands are excessive. The kitchen faucet (45), laundry (30), and Mrs bath (60) in addition to shower are probably 2 times what the those uses would be in a real family.
Fine, then let's modify my original "equation" by going to the opposite extreme and cutting it all in half...


a tank uses 8,563,275 btu or 85.63275 therms/month (30 day)
tankless ~~5,688,900 btu or 56.88900 therms/month
My area a therm is approximately $1.50 ...
tank = $128.45/month
tankless = $ 85.34 A family of four saves $ 43.11/month
$ 517.32 /year
$ 5,173.20 /10 years (warranty)
[/B]
Ok, now lets say the family saves $20 a month - 240/yr - 2400 for ten years.
The tankless cost 3K to install, you're in for $600 after saving over ten.
Tank (75 gal draft NOT PV) costs at least 1000 with ten year warranty PLUS the extra 2400 not saved. You're in for $3400 over ten, make it $3200 for a 50.
As for maintanence, here's a foolproof way to guage.
I've seen one inquiry here regarding a tankless misfiring, with probes that were gummed in over 3 months.
Would this forum be an excellent way to guage that?

[Furd]

Okay, I lied. :D I use a bit over 12 therms a month for water heating. At a cost of a touch over $1.24 a therm that makes the cost of water heating for me about $15.30 a month not counting the various taxes and fees that are added.

Now if I could save 25% of the gas cost by going to a tankless heater that would translate to about $3.83 a month or just under $46. a year.

Assuming that a tank-type heater will last 10 years and a tankless will last 20 years I will save $920. in gas costs (assuming a constant price for the gas) during that 20 year span.

But let us look at a bit differently.

Say a new tank-type heater is $1,000 installed and it uses 12 therms per month at a constant cost of $1.25 per therm. In ten years it will have used 1,440 therms at a cost of $1,800.00 Add in the original cost of the installed heater and you get $2,800.00 to supply your hot water needs for ten years.

If a new tankless heater costs $3,000 to install and uses 8 therms per month (25% less than the tank-type) then over its life of 20 years it would have a total cost of $5,400.00.

Now if we break this back to a cost-per-year basis it comes out as $280.00 per year for the tank-type and $270.00 for the tankless.

None of this takes into account that a tankless heater is more likely to have some kind of failure or will likely need a bit more maintenance than a tank-type. Also, the 20-year lifespan I used for the tankless may be a bit optimistic.

I really wish that the manufacturers would improve the total efficiency of the tank-type heaters but even as things stand today I won't be going tankless just to save a measly ten bucks a year.

[master plumber mark]

FURD....very well stated.....thank you

that is exactly what I have been talking about
and have posted on my web site..tankless page...

the brad white test I got posted claims that the
tankless would save about 600 bucks in 12 years

not including breakdowns or maintaince....


I will see with my own unit...my meter, and my
sloppy innefiecient 75 gallon vented heater..............

according to the felllow I bought the meter from
each number is considered .....one cubic foot.

I will need to search the internet to find out how to
do the conversion from one cu ft of gas to btu's or therms,

should not be too hard to do...

[GrumpyPlumber]

Furd, You forgot standby loss.
Roughly 15 BTU p/hour p/sq foot of surface area for a 50 gal.
318 BTU/hour, 229,029 /month - 2.3 therms @ $1.24 about /2.90 month.
Tankless isn't for small households, this was based on Marks family of four, we'd multiply the 12 by 4.

48 @ $1.24 = $59.52 with the differential from 60% to 85% would be $42.00/month rounded off to $17 less per month, plus a 50 gal standby loss @2.90 a month, lets say $20 a month.


I really wish that the manufacturers would improve the total efficiency of the tank-type heaters but even as things stand today I won't be going tankless just to save a measly ten bucks a year.
To heck with that...Tankless should drop their prices.

[GrumpyPlumber]

[SIZE=3]I will need to search the internet to find out how to
do the conversion from one cu ft of gas to btu's or therms,

should not be too hard to do...

Mark, I can guess it's been awhile since you peaked in your books.
A cubic foot of gas is 1000 BTU, a therm is 100,000 BTU.
Again, for reference one btu is the energy it takes to heat 1 pound of water one degree, a gallon is 8.33 pounds, 62.3554 pounds in a cubic foot, or 7.5 gallons per cubic foot.
Every CF reading on your meter is 1,000 BTU's.

[Furd]

Grumpy, I didn't "forget" standby losses, they are factored in to the already metered 12 therms per month operating costs of the tank-type heater. In other words, if I used NO hot water I would STILL have used gas for the pilot AND for keeping the tank hot.


Also, your factor of 1,000 BTUs per cubic foot is NOT exact. Natural gas piped to a home is a mixture of gases and while 1,000 BTUs per cubic foot is an easy number to remember for approximate usage, the gas company multiplies the cubic feet consumption by a "BTU correction factor" to arrive at the number of therms you are billed. This correction factor is listed on the gas bill and changes on a regular basis.

Now depending upon the individual gas supplier a cubic foot of natural gas might be a little less than 1,000 BTUs, a little more than 1,000 BTUs or exactly 1,000 BTUs during any particular billing period.


Tankless isn't for small households,
That isn't what the tankless proponents would have a person believe. In fact, it seems to me that a "small" (i.e. single person) household should be more suited for tankless because it is more likely that hot water would only be used at very specific and infrequent times and using tankless in this situation could definitely reduce the losses from tank standby operation.



It is obvious that you have "bought in" to the arguments given by the tankless manufacturers hook, line and sinker. Now if only "they" would enforce truth in advertising we all would be in a better position to judge the relative merits of each type of hot water supply.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Furd, you're confusing the term BTU with something else on your gas bill.
A BTU isn't an adjustable measurement on a gas co's bill, it's a measurement of a unit of energy.
Regardless what the adjusted rate on your bill is, a BTU is and always will be 1,000 BTU's per CF nat gas. (thought not exactly, certainly not variable)
The statement you made that a CF of nat gas is variable & can be slightly more or slightly less tells me you might want to pull out your gas bill and reread it more carefully.
The term is a measurement of a CF of NG at atmospheric pressure at sea level is 1000 btu.

[Furd]

Sorry Grumpy, but you are just plain wrong.

A BTU is a British Thermal Unit and as you explained it is the amount of heat necessary to raise the temperature of a pound of water one degree Fahrenheit.

Natural gas is measured by the cubic foot but is sold by the therm. A therm is equal to 100,000 BTUs as you also stated.

HOWEVER, natural gas is a mixture of many gases, predominantly methane. Because it is a mixture the heating value varies according to the mixture. Because of this there is no guarantee that exactly one cubic foot of gas will yield exactly 1,000 BTUs. Since the gas is sold NOT by cubic feet but by heating value (in therms) it is necessary for the gas supplier to apply a correction factor to the metered (cubic feet) gas flow to adjust for the actual heating value of the metered gas. One cubic foot measured may have a heating value as low as 900 BTUs or as high as 1,100 BTUs. It AVERAGES about 1,000 BTUs but it is NOT an absolute. By applying the correction factor the customer is paying not for the metered VOLUME but the ACTUAL heating value.

I think my 35+ years as a degreed energy systems engineer beats whatever your time as a plumber, machinist and whatever else you have done.

[master plumber mark]

Yes Grumpy, I have not opened the books in a long time....

never been necessary, I have got other things to do....

Honestly , I have been considering signing up for a unioin
job just for the educatioinal value...learing new things
and brushing up on things.....and the 65k a year
they pay.... but a plumber has go to run free...




anyway the meter is now sitting at 185 cu ft

for basically almost 48 hours of fairley heavy use...

now I got to get out my gas bill and see what I pay.

then we go from there...



I think that you and Furd can both agree the
the AVERAGE will work out at 1000

[GrumpyPlumber]

Furd, Many gasses, not in any substantial amount.
85% Methane, 15% ethane is the norm on NG.
LP is a mixture of propane & smaller amounts of butane, as you know, and yes those mixtures may vary, yes the BTU's vary per gas.
I'm very happy for your academic accomplishments, but the threads topic is Marks tankless experiment and it's probably a good idea to work with a constant.
We could open a seperate thread dedicated to cerebral prowess and who's smartest, maybe another time, but the simple fact is that 1 CF of methane is a constant, I say we roll with it, rather than take on a team of nasa scientists to aid the process.
Lets not get sidetracked on debate over "My brain is bigger than yours" and get back to topic, as Mark just stated above.
The point in stating the CF is 1,000 BTU's isn't exact is true, in the world of physical science almost nothing is, until you get down to subatomic particles.
We're not concerned with nuclear physics as yet on this thread (though humorous remarks could be made about my "calculations').
For the record:
Natural gas(methane) = 1027 Btu/ft3
LP gas (Propane) = 2,500 Btu/ft3
Utilities/technical professions simply round that number off - as Mark states above.
If we really wanted to, we could analyze the potential for rare isotopes that could occasionally crop up from the source of the gas, I say lets not.

[master plumber mark]

Damn, you know I just hate it when those

sub atomic paiticles and isoteopes clog up the

gas orfice on my outside grill.....

it gives the braukwurst kind of a metallic taste...........

[ultgar01]

Great discussion. I also believe indirect is the way to go if you already have a boiler in place. I'm putting in a small Munchkin unit with a Superstor tank for the indirect...

http://www.ultimategarage.com/homegarage/munchkin-20406-1.jpg

http://www.ultimategarage.com/homegarage/munchkin-21706c.jpg

http://www.ultimategarage.com/homegarage/vision2display.jpg


I'd love to do a tankless for our 2nd floor apartment (heat is via steam so I can't put in an indirect here) but looks like I'll stick with a 40 gallon tank model until things get a bit simpler.

Here's an install I ran into at a clients house last week....3 munchkin boilers and 2 Superstor units for the house....over 20 zones of heating and cooling.

http://www.ultimategarage.com/homegarage/munchkin2.html

[Kiril]

I'm in the process of getting together a list of connection supplies for a Rinnai 85i Plus and have a few questions since I don't have the unit on hand and I would rather spec my own connection materials than use their kit.

1) Will there be a need for dielectric unions for connecting plumbing and gas. Not sure what the material is on the heater since I don't have it.

2) Thoughts on using these combo BV and PRV on hot and cold lines and what pressure would be best (I'm thinking 100psi).

http://www.watts.com/pro/_productsFull.asp?pid=564&ref=1

3) Opinions on the venting kit for the Rinnai 85i

4) Opinions on thread vs. sweat on ball valves.

BTW, good thread. I can post some pics of the install as well as performance in extremely hard water (range 100-620 ppm with 313 being the ave) and my efforts to deal with that.

[master plumber mark]

BTW, good thread. I can post some pics of the install as well as performance in extremely hard water (range 100-620 ppm with 313 being the ave) and my efforts to deal with that.

You will certainly need to get the bypass valve flushing kits for that tankless unit to de-lime it

are you on well water or something???

[Furd]

It is the engineer in me that insists on being precise. I will agree that for the purpose of Mark's study that 1,000 BTUs per cubic feet of gas will be close enough to assess the differences between tank-type and tankless water heaters on a short term basis.

On a long-term basis, i.e. ten years or more, the differences could have some bearing.

[Bob NH]

One thing missing in all of these analyses is that the difference between a $3000 instant heater and a $1000 tank type heater, if used to purchase a CD at 5%, would return $100 per year. That is more than the saving expected on most of these systems.

Many homeowners are paying more than 5% on their mortgages and a fair number are paying 15% on credit card balances. They would be better off if they paid off some debt, which would produce a greater saving without any maintenance or depreciation.

[GrumpyPlumber]

It is the engineer in me that insists on being precise. I will agree that for the purpose of Mark's study that 1,000 BTUs per cubic feet of gas will be close enough to assess the differences between tank-type and tankless water heaters on a short term basis.

On a long-term basis, i.e. ten years or more, the differences could have some bearing.

Of course they would, but the point is that the same gas would be feeding a tank OR a tankless.
Besides, Mark is measuring actual CF, not btu's.

[GrumpyPlumber]

One thing missing in all of these analyses is that the difference between a $3000 instant heater and a $1000 tank type heater, if used to purchase a CD at 5%, would return $100 per year. That is more than the saving expected on most of these systems.

Many homeowners are paying more than 5% on their mortgages and a fair number are paying 15% on credit card balances. They would be better off if they paid off some debt, which would produce a greater saving without any maintenance or depreciation.

Humorous & true.
On that note, I charge all my stock, then pay it off immediately for that very reason.
You bring up a very interesting point, people seem to obsess over fuel costs lately, without looking at what intersts their cards have, mortgage or auto loans and maybe consider refinancing/ switching cards...etc.
So I guess this narrows it down to only large families with no unpaid loans that would benefit from tankless's.

[Kiril]

You will certainly need to get the bypass valve flushing kits for that tankless unit to de-lime it

are you on well water or something???

Yes, well water. Got a link or pic of that?

[master plumber mark]

I think that this lady is on well water....

you should be able to call her she is so pi//ed off
that she left her telephone number for anyone to call
about her ordeal with a Bochse unit

she has fought with it for 5 years and switched back to
a tank type heater...

read # 4 and 5 .......that she posted



http://www.complaints.com/2007/march/1/Bosch_Aquastar_240_FX_tankless_water_heater_18190. htm



almost all tankless brands out there sell the "expensive accessories"
that they dont like to mention too much about

I got two sets of them n my office....I think that they are worth
about 100 bucks each...

http://www.****************.com/store/ISO1.html




and If I could get my wife to stop chargeing things on the master card
I probably would be debt free...,

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Art indeed. (right clicks-saves as, puts company name on pictures) Yeah I worked all night on that one!!!

RUGGED's two favorite metals >>>> Copper, Brass

That system above is one that'll be there for years, the mice won't bother taking any interest in it cough!cough!pex~! and the way it was built....top notch design with isolation valves everywhere to service it down the road.


I couldn't even read all the factors that were posted on the comparison draw with tank against tankless; It all gets thrown out the window because you are stating CONTROLLED laboratory/mock testing on both products.

The real life scenarios with one week of cold weather.....another week of REAL cold weather.....then a slight increase in temperature. OR.....if you are out west.......it's always warm! How easy is it to bring warm water to hot? Pretty simple I'd say.


And to think that "only tankless owners" will keep their plumbing in good repair? Meaning they will instantly stop a leaking tub faucet or lavatory or kitchen sink faucet? NEVER. That's wishful thinking and that destroys the savings on the equations laid out. They keep making these units cheaper and cheaper so of course that allows the low-end users the ability to afford that application too.

The majority of people have leaking faucets and some leak for years before they are fixed. Not everyone......but there's a good amount of people that ignore that "oh it's just a small leak" situation.

I put in any of these treats......the rules of engagement are as follows: You are allowed a minimum of 1 call per 12 month period to ask me questions why it is not working right....or why it's giving you an error code when mindy your wife is washing daughter natalie in the jacuzzi and just can't get the water warm enough. I didn't make it.....I just installed it. Boo-yah!!!

Keeps me employed.

[GrumpyPlumber]

That brings up a missed point.
Tankless are triggered by the flow switch to startup at .5 gpm, a drip won't do it.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

The point I'm making is a slow flow of unheated water through that unit in standby mode cools down the heated compartment.....it's lines travelling out of that unit..instead of time reducing thermal loss. That is harvested heat energy that a leak will wipe out instantly. I bet the testing on those tankless ASSUME those lines don't have to be constantly reheated between uses as the test was accelerated knowing that the numbers inflate in that scenario when the heating compartment is hot along with the feeds coming out. Thermal loss is gradual with no leaks, thermal loss is great when there is a leak.


Too bad they didn't design a flow switch to catch that energy robbing situation. :cool:

RUGGED <<< Understanding the long term effects of people on plumbing since 1984...

[ultgar01]

We just purchased a new house in Charlotte NC with a detached garage. Since the garage is not part of the house and there are few basements in NC, the builder put the hot water heaters (AO Smith 40gal units) in the attic.

Even with the expansion tank and plumbed drain pans, I'm really nervous about having these in the attic and would consider replacing these with an outdoor tankless unit. Anything to look out for here (besides the usual mfg suggested clearances for venting)? SD

[GrumpyPlumber]

Yes, frost.
Not familiar with Charlotte winters, but if it gets below freezing at any time this would be a serious note to consider.
I usually just mount them inside the foundation wall, they're generally about the size of a large suitcase.

[Bob NH]

If you are replacing tank-type heaters in the attic, what is wrong with putting the tankless heater in the attic? The gas and water lines are already available and it is a short run through the roof for the stack.

I would use copper piping instead of PEX because the drain pans won't do anything for leaks away from the heater.

If it were mine I would check my insurance policy and leave the tank-type heaters alone.

[ultgar01]

If you are replacing tank-type heaters in the attic, what is wrong with putting the tankless heater in the attic? The gas and water lines are already available and it is a short run through the roof for the stack.

I would use copper piping instead of PEX because the drain pans won't do anything for leaks away from the heater.

If it were mine I would check my insurance policy and leave the tank-type heaters alone.

Because the builder put a scuttle hole access to the attic instead of a pull down stairs. I dread the day, especially when I'm older, that I have to go up and replace those units.

[jadnashua]

Most pull-down stairs aren't rated with very heavy duty ladders, either...you can hardly carry anything up with you.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Most pull-down stairs aren't rated with very heavy duty ladders, either...you can hardly carry anything up with you.

Oh what humorous memories that statement conjures...
Clunking up one with my trusty right angle, tool bucket & cord as homeowner grimaces.

[Nate R]

What? And ruin all the fun?!?!?



Also, I didn't factor in the fed tax credit of $300 (which means $75-$100 in real money for most tax brackets)

No, that would be $75-100 in real money if it was a tax DEDUCTION. A tax CREDIT is far more valuable. It's money in your pocket dollar for dollar. A tax deduction lowers your taxable income. (Thus a $1000 deduction off of your income amount saves you about $250 in taxes.) A credit is subtracted directly from your tax OWED, not the # the tax is calculated from. Doesn't mean it will make the difference in savings in this case enough to be worth it, but I had an urge to point out the difference.

[GrumpyPlumber]

No, that would be $75-100 in real money if it was a tax DEDUCTION. A tax CREDIT is far more valuable. It's money in your pocket dollar for dollar. A tax deduction lowers your taxable income. (Thus a $1000 deduction off of your income amount saves you about $250 in taxes.) A credit is subtracted directly from your tax OWED, not the # the tax is calculated from. Doesn't mean it will make the difference in savings in this case enough to be worth it, but I had an urge to point out the difference.

"I'm a plumber Jim, not an accountant"
Thank you for differentiating that, I think it could well tip the scales at game point.

[Nate R]

Hmm, I suppose it could. But doesn't that credit end after this year? :confused:

[GrumpyPlumber]

Thanks for the good news.

Thanks for the bad news.

"Improvements must be installed in or on the taxpayer’s principal residence in the United States. Home improvement tax credits apply for improvements made between January 1, 2006 and December 31, 2007."
http://www.energy.gov/taxbreaks.htm

[master plumber mark]

I remember when their was a final date for the solar tax credits back in 85?,, and after that point the solar industry was on its own....

One person I knew had invested all his money in NOVAN
a very good solar company....

but the writeing was on the wall and he still held onto the stock till it tanked to zero..

----------------------------------------------------------------------
I installed the gas meter last Sunday at 11.00 and its
mid morning now... So one week has passed.

At present my 75 gallon Gas Water heater has
used approx 650 cubic feet of gas for one week
with the temp set on 130.

If that is an average for the month, it should work out to 2600 cubic feet..
now all I got to do is read my gas bill and determine what a cubic foot of gas equals in therms and what it is costing me...


will I have sticker shock and run out and get a tankless water heater....???

[GrumpyPlumber]

1 cf of gas = 1,000 BTU x 650 = 650,000 or 6.5 therms /week
A therm In my area runs about $1.40, in Furds $1.24, I assume IN has lower avg rates, so for sake of argument, until you check your bill, lets say $1.10.
That comes to $7.15 for that week, and I assume it's been a warm week for you guys like it has been here, meaning you're not looking at temperature increases of 90 degree's to heat the water.

The tankless is 84% efficient as opposed to the tanks 60%.
With a difference of 24% the tank "should" use 9.1 therms in a week for a cost of $10.01 NOT including standby.
A difference in cost of $2.86 /week - $11.44 /month - $137.28 /year.

The cost difference to install a tankless as opposed to a draft vent 75gal
Runs from 1K to 1.5K, more for expensive units.
In other words, it roughly evens out over ten years for a family, not retire3e's or single folks...excluding potential rebates or soon to be moot tax credits and unincluded standby losses.
The major factor that most people are inquiring over is the endless hot water, when you have several teens at home and you're outta luck for a shower before work, even a higher price is fine.
You're gonna want to get that guage on your tank heater asap, before the weather gets much colder, the colder it gets the worse it'll effect the tanks readings vs the tankless.

[master plumber mark]

Grumpy, if your calcualtions are correct,
that is not too bad an expence for
a 75 gallon with the standby piolit light included...
sounds like about 10 bucks a week + about 40 per month
for the BIG BOY 75....

which for all pratical purposes, is very close to endless hot water
for the average family....

Personally I thought the bill would be much higher than that...


I will check out the gas bill..

I will check out the incomming water temp tomorow..

and I will certainly check out the actual temp of the
water comming out of the heater....


you stated
The tankless is 84% efficient as opposed to the tanks 60%.
With a difference of 24% the tank "should" use 9.1 therms in a week for a cost of $10.01 NOT including standby.
A difference in cost of $2.86 /week - $11.44 /month - $137.28 /year.


judgeing by your calcualtions,
it appears that we are really splitting hairs here,
mighty, mighty fine hairs.........

and the cost saveings between them seems to be more symbolic than realistic...

can you think of anything I should be considering in this test...????

[master plumber mark]

Another beautiful Sunday Morning Indiana week #2
Temps are now starting to drop in the area

My 75 gallon Brad white gas how water heater
has now consumed a total of 1235 cub feet

looks to be averageing about 618 cub feet per week..

still need to look up my cost......per therm.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Mark, I'd figured you connected the tankless by now.
A difference of temperature as little as 10 degree's makes a difference in btu consumption.

[master plumber mark]

At this point of this experiment I am lucky to
have gotten this much done...


Thought I would give the 75 gallon a month or two
of readings....


I realize that this means that the Tankless will be comming
on line in the winter and the readings would
be at their absolute worst...


.


Or I can wait till around x mas and do the change out...


Ideally it would have been more fair to have done
this during the summer...

but we have winters here and the tankelss will
still have to perform every year through that season...

gas consumption and performance are both on my mind here

the incomming water temp is now 69 degrees....e




I am hopeing to get a Large Takagi tankless in a few weeks


to be perfectly fair they should be both running at the same time..
.through the exact same season

but I am doing what I can with what I got...


if you have a spare takegi that will handle 3 bathrooms
for dirt cheap or free......send it my way

[master plumber mark]

The temp of the incoming water is holding at 69 degrees

We have had company come into town this week since friday....the big sister in law is
in town staying with us...

takes a lot af water to hose her down........

presently the amount of CUBIC FEET used by the 75 gal gas is at 2065. cub feet


this messes up my esperiment a little but I suppose
I can use the figures for the first two weeks an be ok

[master plumber mark]

week 4...Temp is now down to 67 deg..

had company this week for a funeral...

the gas meter is now sitting at 2800 cu ft...

[master plumber mark]

the meter is now at 3500 cu ft

the water temp is now at 63 degrees...

I am sort of interested in seeing how much gas
the heater will use when the water temp crashes to
about 45 degrees this winter..

[master plumber mark]

temp is now at 60 degrees...

cubic feet used to date 4300..

[master plumber mark]

heater has now used 5030 cubic feett

water temp is now at 60 degrees....

I still need to see what a cu foot is costing me


looks to be averageing about 700 cu ft per week......

[Bob NH]

heater has now used 5030 cubic feet.

water temp is now at 60 degrees....

I still need to see what a cu foot is costing me


looks to be averageing about 700 cu ft per week......

Look at your last two gas bills. Assume that 100 cubic ft is one THERM. It is probably costing you about 1.5 cents per cubic ft.

[master plumber mark]

I was gonna get around to calling the gas company to
nail that down tomorrow...

I will be spending the day at home with a sick kid...
so its time to catch up on my paper work


at 1.5 cents which you claim it shoud be per cubic
foot that only works out to about 75 bucks for 7 weeks???

5030 cu feet x .015 = 75.45

or about 10 bucks per week??

[jadnashua]

Now, with the water meter, how many gallons of water were heated? You can then figure out approximately how much was used to heat it the first time, then how much was standby losses. You have the average input temp so you know the temp rise the heater is trying to provide.

[master plumber mark]

I think That would really be cutting some fine hairs....

That would involve putting another meter on the
heater to measue water usage ...

I am only looking at the average usage for a family of 4....
a ballpark average is good enough
I am not going to get suckered
into turning this into a bigger project than it already is

I dont think its necessary to figure out exactly how much
energy it took to heat up 100 gallons of water...

Especially when at this point it looks to be doing about
only around a measely 10 bucks a week anyway....


this is all very boring right now...in Week #8 but they
seem to be passing very fast.... .


The big hurdle is still ahead some day with the tankless
unit ......probably next spring...

of course I am still in the "procurement phase."

I am still looking for one of the owners of a supply house
around here to donate a scratch and dent one to me.......
that will do 3 bathrooms...

[GrumpyPlumber]

I'll guestimate,
At 22-24% higher efficiency and the standby heat loss on a 75 gal, You'd save about $2.50-$3.00 a week.
Approximately $140.00 a year.

[master plumber mark]

I'll guestimate,
At 22-24% higher efficiency and the standby heat loss on a 75 gal, You'd save about $2.50-$3.00 a week.
Approximately $140.00 a year.


So Grumpy.....you have not been around for a while...
did you get back from a vacation to Europe or some place exotic?


I found another site that claims a tankless will save as much as 23 dollars per month to heat the water....

it dont seem realistic to install the tankless if all you
are going to save is a so small....

here is the article I found from the Plum biz newsletter I get

Are they really cost effective?
Last week I started prying open a can of worms concerning the cost savings of tankless versus storage type water heaters. It's been over twenty years since I had my first practical lesson in the benefits of both. With the help of the engineers at PVI water heaters (http://rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001QvcGvOjTrP4Y0PnjOBPePXMl7nW-GW9gYlT20tjpsyjWXB6R5sndEnq3diwGI5_M1jZI8Tm2xc-Y84pmbhZ5Xppa__M8qqyn1Gk7J0GlDAI=)(I live less than two miles from their HQ) I wrote the specs for a municipal maintenance facility. The facility included crew showers which, if I remember correctly, would accommodate 8 mechanics at once. In theory, they would likely all be hitting the showers at the quitting time so we needed to provide enough hot water for all of them at once. To handle the task, we installed a 250 gallon tank type heater which only had about 100,000 btuh or so for a burner (I could be off a bit on the burner size). At first, I thought their engineers were just trying to spec a big tank but then I realized how much money we saved on the project by specifying this monster. For all I know, it could have been the key to winning the job.
Installation costs were shaved in several ways: The flue was considerably smaller than one which was necessary for a quicker recovery unit. This was important since the roof was about 20 feet overhead. Then, there was a considerable savings on gas piping. If we had run piping for a half million btuh burner we would have been into welded pipe sizes, instead of being able to stick with screw pipe. Let's not forget that by being well under the 200,000 btuh boiler threshold we didn't have to deal with an ASME rated tank.
The tankless market is asking us to reverse these infrastructure savings. Although there are plenty of instances where a tankless model makes good sense (I have no plans to remove them from my price book system) but, whenever the government gets involved, as in offering rebates for energy savings, then it's time to take a look at the real world that they may not have thought of. (Can you say "Daylight Savings Time?")
So, let's say that half the population of a given neighborhood suddenly decided to go tankless. Since large segments of our population share schedules ( "rush hour" doesn't just happen on the freeway). So, what happens at 6:00 a.m. on a January morning when everyone hits the showers at once?
Here's a simple example: Let's say a distribution branch is designed to handle a hundred homes equipped with 45,000 btuh storage type water heaters. If just 10% of those homes switched over to tankless, at 190,000 btuh each, demand could result in a 25% increase in peak energy demand. In other words, just as individual homes have to be upgraded to accommodate the peak demand of tankless burners, the municipal infrastructure could have to be upgraded in order to provide enough energy for peak usage. Fortunately, the high up front cost of converting to tankless will prevent hoards of consumers from adopting these units but that doesn't change the fact that several tankless heaters on a single distribution branch could cause problems.
If you don't think this could happen, perhaps I should tell you about the challenges I've seen neighborhoods experience when severely cold weather resulted in every furnace firing at once. The gas company had to bring in tanker trucks of natural gas, pumping it into the local distribution system because the infrastructure couldn't deliver enough fuel gas.
I realize this is getting a bit far fetched but these infrastructure problems would be a real headache if the population in general decided to go tankless. It won't happen, as mentioned already, but it's still evidence that tankless isn't going to solve our energy challenges.
Speaking of infrastructure and payback. Last week, I mentioned that I had found a manufacturer boasting of 50% savings. Here's the phrase from their website in case you missed it:
"[Our brand] tankless gas water heaters provide an endless supply of hot water on demand; only heating the hot water that is needed. This performance cuts water heating costs up to 50%."
I asked them to help me understand the savings claim and sure enough, they have a real live case study where they replaced a 40 gal. NG water heater with their tankless unit. They had 6 months of before/after fuel costs for each water heater (I'm not sure how they gleaned that part of the data) and sure enough, they managed to squeeze out as much as 53% savings in a couple of the months. The six month average savings ended up around 45%. This is a pretty significant savings by any measure. Very impressive. But there's a hitch: That 45% savings results in a monthly dollar savings of. . .are you ready for this. . . less than $23.


At $23 per month, what's the estimated payback (in months or years) for swapping out a 40 gal. Nat. with a tankless unit from your shop? For calculations, use a tankless unit that's just under 200,000 btuh max input with a remote T-Stat. Be sure to include re-sizing gas and flue piping as would be typical in your area when working up your prices then send me an e-mail with your bottom line number: At $23 per month, how many months would it for a conversion to pay itself back?

[GrumpyPlumber]

Heya Mark, thanks for noticing...feast or famine here.
Got real busy about a month ago and been crazy since.
As for $23 a month, it's math.
Lets say a 40 gal tank costs $800 for install and a tankless costs $3K.
A disparity of $2200.
At $23 a month, thats $276 a year, $2200 in 8 years.
I better stop ignoring those Plumbiz E-mails..apparently I'm missing out.

[master plumber mark]

that plumb biz news letter is usually pretty dry.....
but its a good read one in a while....I glance it over

you are sort of close to about right with that estimate but....

the 23 a month was supposed to be the 50% high end of
saveings the absolute most you could save useing the tankless salesmens numbers.


of course the tankless folks are going to use the absolute highest % for saveings
and they are going to use the absloute rock bottom numbers for installation costs too
to get the years down on the pay back end ..... and that is all smoke and mirrors to me....

but the Plumb biz guy also wants you to factor in
some sort of ball park estimate for enlargeing the chimmney---and enlargeing the gas line too....

into the overall cost and then figure out the payback from there..

it will be interesting to see the numbers he gets back....


they are not factoring in future maintaince to this equation to me
its really a FUZZIE shot in the dark...

[GrumpyPlumber]

The $3K ballpark figure is for install with a 3/4" upgrade on the gas supply, as well as the vent set-up.
They're wall mounted, so you generally set them up on the foundation wall as close to where they'll vent outside as possible because the SS vent is expensive (around $80 for a 4' length of 4" if memory serves).

Maintanence is another issue, but from what I hear it isn't much more than a yearly vinegar flush, which you're "supposed" to do on tank types anyway.
Tankless have been around for many years, much like cell phones, they were originally a high end item that was too cost prohibitive for the average Joe.

[master plumber mark]

week #8 have used 5680 cu ft so far..


I might have a Rheem tankless with a scratch
and dent on it in a few weeks.....

[markotah]

Fact: One product is not good for all applications!
Tankless electric is only a good choice for point of use small sink applications especially in colder climates. Gas on the other hand is not new and has been in Europe for over 40+ years. (far longer than tank type pv units). In the northeast a tankless unit can cost 1/2 as much to operate. Comparing to a 75 gal 70K tank type heater you only have 70% of usable water. Call it 53 gals and a recovery of about 70 gals per hr. Total 123 gals. Take a Rheem 199,000 BTU unit (and all manufacturers are equal on the same BTU) 40* incoming water and 117* supply temp and you will have 4.3 gpm continiously or 258 gals per hr. You need to calculate the peak flow but if you fill the whirlpool someone can jump right into a shower and still have h/w. If you need a higher fill rate you can twin units together for higher demands. I have 2500 sq ft homes in a subdivision in CT and no complaints with a single units. I have larger homes where we have twinned units and the end users are happy. The key thing is to know what you will receive for flow with the coldest incoming water. READ LITERATURE CAREFULLY! Most of the 7.4 or 6.9 gpm you see are @ 45* rise. ALSO be aware of larger units over 200K. Most states require an ASME rating on units over 120 gal or 200K. This can be an issue with both the inspectors but more importantly your insurance carriers.
Last the warrantys on most tankless units are better than the standard tank warranties.

[markotah]

The $3K ballpark figure is for install with a 3/4" upgrade on the gas supply, as well as the vent set-up.
They're wall mounted, so you generally set them up on the foundation wall as close to where they'll vent outside as possible because the SS vent is expensive (around $80 for a 4' length of 4" if memory serves).

Maintanence is another issue, but from what I hear it isn't much more than a yearly vinegar flush, which you're "supposed" to do on tank types anyway.
Tankless have been around for many years, much like cell phones, they were originally a high end item that was too cost prohibitive for the average Joe.

You need to qualify the install. If your customer has a chimney and is not runnining out of h/w payback may not be there. But if you have a new installation and are considering a PV or DV tank type unit the tankless is that much difference in price assuming you can mount on an outside wall. The DV units take all combustion air from outside which is better. The Nat Gas Code states you need 50 cu ft of area for every 1000 BTU. A 60'x20'x8' room only has 9600 cu ft and you would need 10,000 cu ft for 200,000 BTU.

[jadnashua]

Where I live, in the winter, the incoming water can be 33 degrees. a 45-degree rise isn't even warm! I'm surprised you can get by with that in CT. If you have a boiler, I still think an indirect is the way to go.

[master plumber mark]

I am wondering how cold the water will be around jan 15th in INDY...

My guess is it will be down around 35 degrees too.....

Thats cold water....and I honestly dont think one of the
tankless can even hope to deliver the same heat that
my 75 gallon can......

right now the out going hot water temp is set at.....130 deg

the cold incomming is 60 deg....

I am useing about 650 cu feet a week at 60 degrees

wondering how much more cu feet it will take to
keep up when the water crashes ...


Sittingat home today with a kid witht he flu today
thnk I will call teh gas company today and
get info on the cost per therm

[Waterloo]

Had a flex water heater pipe leak on me today. I tightened it up too much and split the gasket. Of course, I only put the water heater in yesterday. At least my sweat connections have held...

When I moved into my home, the previous owner (who had the house built) had installed two electric tankless water heaters (SETS) - one 22KW and the other 11KW. I could heat up 3 gallons a minute by 75 degrees. Or, more likely, 4.5 gallons per minute by 50 degrees. We didn't need that much water heated, so the second one (11kw) got turned off.

However, the darn thing took time to modulate to find it's set point, and since it always comes on "full blast" then modulates down, it ends up tripping it's resets. So, every week or two you end up downstairs resetting them.

It's not too bad for just yourself. You get to know how the thing works, and how you have to run the shower for a bit to let it equalize. But when relatives show up and try to take showers, they end up fighting it constantly. It gets too hot, so they reduce the amount of hot water. Then it gets too cold, so they increase the amount of hot water. Of course, it's 30 seconds to get to their shower from the tankless, and the tankless can take 15-30 seconds to find it's setpoint. It also can be challenging for a dishwasher.

This brings me back to why I hate plumbing. I kept the tankless SETS heater. The output of it now goes into a standard electric water heater. I now get a constant temperature out of the faucet. And, by having the tankless in front of it, I doubt anyone at my house will ever have a cold shower.

Overall, I love the concept of the tankless design. But the temperature fluctuations drove me (and everyone else) nuts. I'm sure gas ones are different (I read that they reduce output flow to maintain temperature), but the electrics really need to be considered pre-heaters.

[master plumber mark]

I would put up with that kind of trouble or
about one week.....

those electric tankless would be out in the trash...

It sounds like you threw out a couple of
tankless water heaters over the weekend

[Waterloo]

Nah - they're too expensive to throw out. It just feeds into the tank now. I don't ever have to worry about running out of hot water. I could take a 4 hour shower if I wanted to....

[Raucina]

E B A Y
If people want to advertise their products here, they will need to talk to me and pay for that advertising.
I don't offer free advertising. [Terry wrote]
__________________

Over on the well and pump forum we have a guy that has relentlessly advertised his product for at least a year, and another that posts links to his sales site. I can tell you that more than a few people are bothered by it. Are those commercial sales persons exempt from that rule for some reason or do they pay for the privilige? They say that they do not. Are there different rules for each forum?

I know its Terry's football and he can throw it where he wants, but I think we patrons of this media have a right to see the advertising on the side of the page and not in the content disguised as help.

[master plumber mark]

did you post to the wrong thread??

[Mikey]

I kept the tankless SETS heater. The output of it now goes into a standard electric water heater. I now get a constant temperature out of the faucet. And, by having the tankless in front of it, I doubt anyone at my house will ever have a cold shower.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to use the tankless as a post-heater, rather than a pre-heater? As a pre-heater, the tankless will run whenever the flow demands it, even if the demand is only a few gallons. As a post-heater, it would only run when the tank-type heater's supply of hot water has been exhausted.

[jadnashua]

The tankless I've looked at (and that's not many) use a flow switch to turn on...they don't necessarily care if it is hot water. If it is, they may modulate, but they still turn on. Then, you could get REALLY hot water, and could have steam pressure problems. I'd restrict it to the input side, if you were going to put them in series. Now, some of the more sophisticated ones are designed for that, but they have interconnected controls which wouldn't be available when connected to some other heater.

[Mikey]

Good point, Jim. Any idea where I could buy one of those flow sensors? It might be a good way to control the chlorinator in my water system.

[jadnashua]

No idea...never looked.

[master plumber mark]

forgot to get around to posting my btu input for
this week it was 6500 cu ft even.

temp is now sitting at 59 degrees


the turkeys are cooking

this is getting a little dull

got to get the tankless soon

[Winslow]

I am tired of hearing all the SMOKE and MIRRORS
talk from the tankless salesman and am presently
looking to install one in my own home

then do a little experiment

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I Just went to a training seminar last night on the

takagi tankless water heaters.......

that was fun.......
it felt like being at a three stooges film-fest...

(but their was free food)


I was not aware that when you vented one
out the side of the house just like a power vent
that they used a Stainless Steel single wall
vent pipe..... and it died outside just like a
power vent with a metal Tee with screens on
both ends .......

Now the odd thing that the salesman tried to gloss
over was the fact that the actual temperature of
the tee and out going gases can hit about
300 degrees.... folks...you can fry bacon on that!!

they let you take this out the roof of your house
in single wall SS pipe too!!

I think that this temp could set the Attic on fire some day
or the , bushes or leaves on fire
on the side of the house....

I feel you should use double or triple wall flu
pipe if you want to avoid future problems

probably most local codes would force tou to beef up that vent pipe...


Have you ever burnt yourself on a motor cycle muffler
or a lawnmower muffler???

We asked what happened if a kid, wife or dog touched
this hot as hell vent pipe ????


BRANDING someone on this tee is very possible with the
side house outlet at about knee height..........

I was told that is what you got insurance for.....


skin graphs for the dog, wife, and neighbor kids should all be covered
by your insurance company......

no problem

so I was not too impressed....LOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


So I think I will install one in my own home
and do an on-going experiment on it.....

Waiting to see if I can get a heavy duty Takagi
from my supplier then slap it on the wall for
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT

I am looking for a couple of small in line gas meters right now..

then I am gonna hook it up right next to my 75 gallon
BRAD-FORD WHITE...install a bypass on the plumbing system

install the small gas meters to both of the heaters

and do an experiment to see which one works best
and actually is more economical over a certain time period....???


I already have a one inch line with a 3/4 outlet less than
5 feet away...

I have a full 12 inch tile chimmney going out the roof......
the vent is easy as pie and will not factor into the R+D

so it should not be brain surgery to set these up with a bypass

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I presently have a NORTIZ unit new in the box but I dont know how good that brand is...

model #VP-4-36str would anyone know how good this one is???

http://www.noritz.com/n069mdv.html its considered middle of the road.... supposed to supply 6.9 gal per minute
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets see....here is my criteria

incomming water right now is about 45......

I got two kids and a very -----HIGH MAINTAINCE WIFE-----

we have three bathrooms --one bath-tub rarely gets used,

one is a bath---6ft X36 whirlpool tub- it gets used a lot.

two kitchen sinks , one dishwasher,

one laundry and laundry tub


technically its a 2 1/2 bathoom house......


again the wife is -----HIGH MAINTIANCE------

and she is not going to put up with a lot of sh/t.
so how do you factor the wife into the experiment.?????



here are the safety instructions for the Nortiz unit I presently have

http://www.noritz.com/documents/N-069M_N-063SManual.pdf

All the indoor tankless WH I have installed utilized a double wall pipe with a double wall finish adapter to trim it out.

[GrumpyPlumber]

All the indoor tankless WH I have installed utilized a double wall pipe with a double wall finish adapter to trim it out.

Many have two options.
Concentric, or seperate vents.
Rinnai has a very affordable concentric kit so it's commonly used, others require SS vents that are pricey, so concentric kits aren't used much due to price.

[master plumber mark]

Keep forgetting to post

the water temp is now about 58 degrees

the gas meter reads 7400 cu ft

[master plumber mark]

Time just flies when you are having fun


now sitting at 7970 cu feet

temp is starting to crash somewhat

down to 55 and falling

supposed to snow tomorrow night

[master plumber mark]

meter is at 9260 cu ft..

Misplaced my thermometer....but
the water is getting pretty cold


averaveing about 600 cu feet per week

[master plumber mark]

Meter has jumped up to 12075...

so the cu feet jumped to over 1000 per week..

incomming water temp is now at 51 degrees

but we had a lot of parties and a
very , very large sister in law'
stay with us over X-mas

(she about needs a car wash with a pressure washer to bathe in)




still haggeling over a tankless....

[Cookie]

Maybe a new lower maintenance wife with skinnier sister might help? :D

[master plumber mark]

you can go ahead and post your informationhere if you so like or start your own thread....

what brand did you buy???

how many people and bathrooms are involves

are you having to adjust yourlifestyle??

how happy are you with it already??


I cant say wether my approach is very accurate but
with the meter in line I should have a handle on usage
to the heater only...

Now if you really want to split hairs... go to e--ba///

and buy a meter like the one I bought and put that in line to the tankless unit only and see what happens....

have fun

[master plumber mark]

meter now reads 13,124....

used around 550 cu feet per week
for the past two weeks

water temp has not changed

[H20Man]

Yeah, you should have bought a Rinnai. 8 gpm.

Also, you're missing the point on the tankless heaters. Yeah, they are more efficient since you don't have to keep a tank hot all the time. But for me, the major benefit is that you NEVER run out of hot water.



Bought a 250btu per hour gas
Now I am being told that a 6.9 gallon Nortiz wont
cut the mustard....


gee...thats just great..... just wonderful ..


.

[H20Man]

The tankless I've looked at (and that's not many) use a flow switch to turn on...they don't necessarily care if it is hot water. If it is, they may modulate, but they still turn on. Then, you could get REALLY hot water, and could have steam pressure problems. I'd restrict it to the input side, if you were going to put them in series. Now, some of the more sophisticated ones are designed for that, but they have interconnected controls which wouldn't be available when connected to some other heater.

This is only true for the el cheapo tankless heaters.

All the good ones adjust their BTU output based on the temp of the incoming water. You can even set the temp of the outgoing water to a specific value.

Putting a tankless before a tank is absolutely useless (unless you have a hot water recirculation system, and then you'd only use a small tank).

What's the point? You're still keeping a tank hot during idle times, so you're not saving any money.

[master plumber mark]

[quote=jakeru;118011

And by the way, I'm actually no longer sure I'll see a gas usage benefit with the tankless, due to longer showers it allows. (It's really great for relaxing achy muscles though!) ;) Regardless, I'll keep you guys posted.[/quote]

So basically a tankless unit will make you end up
staying way too long in the shower

(thats a good an excuse as any, I suppose)

If you are spending too much time in the shower,
it usually means that you are
playing with that bar of soap a little too much...........


blame the tankless heater if you must.......

[master plumber mark]

hey its really cold out there....

the incomming temp has CRASHED to 43 degrees...

my gas hot water heater meter is now reading 14,750 cu feet....


I really , really would like to see how a Tankless would
do at this temp....

and I am debateing about this right now--should I spend the money
and switch over to a Takagi?

this would be the ultimate test for one in the mid-west...

water at 43 degrees is enough to kill with prolonged exposure to it

and it will make that

tankless really strain to keep up...

[jadnashua]

You've got 10 more degrees to match my worst case temps last year - it hit 33 degrees incoming. Under those conditions, I think a tankless would not keep up. The things are generally designed around 50-degree, worst case, incoming water; you're already below that, and it tends to be worst around the end of Feb (at least here).

[master plumber mark]

Just when you think you have seen it all

Whole looking for pics of water heaters for this years yellow page add, I stumble on this tankless information....

he has me beat hands down.....
and has in my opinion
gone off the deep end...at around 7 grand here.......

but their is a lot of very valuable information....

http://www.mattox.com/water_heaters/index.html


check out the two Rennai tankless heaters he installed

and the two electric heaters..

he certainly has me beat.....

[drakeDenver]

That mattox site that you linked to has a really easy to use calculator. Basically, the colder your incoming water and the more usage (more people in the house etc...) the shorter the payback period for a tankless (except there is no field for higher tankless maintenance costs).

Myself, I requested an estimate on a Rinnai on Friday. It has an energy factor of .84 One tanked HWH I saw had an energy factor of .63

I am considering the AO Smith Vertex because the manufacturer says it could be simultaneously used hot water and for space heating (like radiators). I am thinking about moving my washer/dryer to the currently unheated garage and make the utility room (heated by existing furnace) into a second bathroom.

One web document mentioned the department of energy testing procedure uses hot water "draws" that aren't like real world usage. It will be interesting to see how this thread's poster does with his experiment (more realistic).

I agree with the plumber who said "one product is not for everyone". Customers that neglect maintenance will always pay more, no matter what product they have.

[jadnashua]

My boiler runs at a minimum of .94 and heats my indirect WH tank...

Personally, I don't see how a tankless would pay for itself faster if the incoming water is colder...the maximum temperature output just drops along with the input once it reaches its limits. It takes the same amount of heat to raise x gallons y degrees, whether it is being done in advance or in-line. Obviously, the efficiency of the heat delivery will affect the total costs. There are tank type heaters that are quite efficient.

Most tankless can only produce their maximum rating and flow with incoming water at around 50-degrees. Many places of the northern US have water approaching freezing for part of the winter...this has one of two results on a tankless: either an unacceptablly low output temperature or a severely limited volume. Neither of those issues occur with a tank type heater. Some may put up with that low flow, but those who use hot to fill a big tub, or for certain loads of clothing in the washer just may not want to put up with the limitations or the costs to provide the desired flow.

Even with that difference in efficiency, countering with the difference in purchase and installation costs, it would take quite a number of years for the typical user to come out ahead.

[master plumber mark]

http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07675.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10276) http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07685.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10278) http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07754.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10280) http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07707.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10282)


yes that is 3/4 inch toung and groove real cherry panelling on the walls from 1966

well the summer floods came about a month ago and put about 6 inches of water in our downstairs walk out home

my heater never flooded out but the gas meter for my tankless experiment
did get half submerged.... it was a sealed meter and still seems to be chugging along...

the only good thing about it ,
is I got good flood insurance


of course this little set back will not deter me in my endeavor to
prove which heater is more economical

[dave148]

This may have already been mentioned, but I didn't have a chance to read every
post in the thread. When I looked into the tankless, I rejected it for a few reasons:

1. The "whole house" units don't click on until 0.5-0.75 gpm. So hot water to
a lav can be a problem.

2. If the power suddenly goes out, the water turns instantly cold once the
supply line to your shower is used up. This also applies to the gas units
with the electronic controllers (all the good ones as far as I can tell)

3. Theres no reserve for serges. So Even with the Takagi flash T-H1 @199KBTU/Hr
and 95% efficiency, I could bearly run two showers here over 7100 ft elevation,
and any intermittent (washing machine, dishwasher, lav...) use during the two
simultaneous showers would drop the temperature of the showers.

I looked into combining the Takagi with a small tank to eliminate most of the
above problems, but instead of all that mickey mousing around, I just went
ahead and bought a 199KBTU/Hr Polaris (high efficiency, 50 gallon, urethane
insulation).

Dave

[Cass]

http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07675.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10276) http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07685.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10278) http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07754.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10280) http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/nss-folder/pictures/si_UEw80h80_DSC07707.JPG (http://onsmartpages.com/weilhammerplumbingco/pictures/view_alone.nhtml?profile=pictures&UID=10282)


yes that is 3/4 inch toung and groove real cherry panelling on the walls from 1966

well the summer floods came about a month ago and put about 6 inches of water in our downstairs walk out home

my heater never flooded out but the gas meter for my tankless experiment
did get half submerged.... it was a sealed meter and still seems to be chugging along...

the only good thing about it ,
is I got good flood insurance


of course this little set back will not deter me in my endeavor to
prove which heater is more economical



May I suggest a Zoeller Aquanot 2 battery back up sump pump.

[master plumber mark]

Cass....now thats a cute idea.....



basically the home is a walk out bi- level on the creek.
and the water came into the home from 3 sides.........

the home should have been built about 3 feet higher

I am considering putting up a burm or pour a wall perhaps about 5 feet out and then install a pit out on the patio to
pump the water back over the wall....


this is the second time it has flooded , once in 66...

so do you just gamble on it or not????

[master plumber mark]

I looked into combining the Takagi with a small tank to eliminate most of the
above problems, but instead of all that mickey mousing around, I just went
ahead and bought a 199KBTU/Hr Polaris (high efficiency, 50 gallon, urethane
insulation).

Dave



sounds like you already fought the battle of the bulge with a tankless and had nothing but troubles...


any other experineces you care to share??

[dave148]

>sounds like you already fought the battle of the bulge with a tankless and had nothing >but troubles...


>any other experineces you care to share??

All battles were on paper. Fortunately I figured out what the problems would be
before I made a purchase.

However, here is one calculation you might be interested in: The claimed financial
advantage in a tankless over a tank system is standby loss. Using the 1% per hour
specification of the Polaris, the standby loss should be:

50 gallons * 8lb/gal*60 degF / 858 (btu/ft^3)*(0.01 loss)*$.0073 = 0.00160/hr
= 4 cents/day

This is using the price for gas, and the density of gas here in Colorado Springs.

Now maybe we shouldn't believe American's numbers for the Polaris, so let's
check that estimate against the envelope loss on a cylinder the size of the
heater with 2" urethane insulation:

Assuming R-value of 12 F ft^2 hr/BTU (2" of urethane):
Surface area of 22" diameter x 68" (??) tall cylinder:
3.14*22*68+2*3.14(11)^2 = 3385 in^2 /144= 23.5 ft^2

If 60 degrees across insulation,
23.5 ft^2 /(12 F ft^2 hr/BTU) = 2 BTU/HR

Current Cost of gas $0.0073/ft^3
$0.0073/ft^3 * (ft^3/858 btu at 7000') =$8.51E-6/btu
* 2 BTU/HR *24 Hr/Day =$408.4 E-6/day = $0.0004/day

Maybe 2" of urethane was too agressive. If the R value of the insulation
is reduced to only 2, the envelope loss is still only 2.5 cents/day!

Since the Polaris spec gave 4 cents/day, I'll assume most of the heat loss
is actually through the hot pipe, and not through most of the cylinder
area.

So using the worst number we came up with above, we see only about a
$15/year savings in the months we are *NOT* heating the room the water
heater is in. If we are heating the room anyway, then we lose nothing by
adding some heat from the water heater. Counting only half of the year,
we get about an $8/year savings for the tankless compared to an equally
efficient (burning) tank system. Most of the tankless systems are not high
efficiency systems. By the way, this is comparing two systems that are in
standby 100% of the time. If you actually use hot water in hour house,
the $8/year number will be smaller.

Dave

[master plumber mark]

As our great and all knowing president George Bush once stated

it all sounds like "fuzzy math " to me.....


that is why I have just installed a simple gas meter
directly to my 75 gallon Bradford White heater.....


no more "fuzzy math" for me....
I am just going by the numbers for the month or year....


but now I am very reluctant to install that tankless heater,
now that I have a flooded out downstairs home and have
other projects more pressing on my mind....

Its all beginning to become a blur of " fuzzy work." this summer.

[ted01]

I'm a plumber in Park City,Utah.I live at 6500 ft.I have a lot of customers sold on the "green" tankless units.I refuse to install them.The water comes into the houses at around 40 degrees,and we have very hard water.Plus,we're in a high desert.I haven't seen any coments on how much water is wasted with a tankless WH.Why not put a recirc pump on the water heater tank?Instant hot water.Insulate the hot water pipes in the house that you can get to.Drain the sediment from the WH tank every once in a while.And change the annode rod.The tank will last longer and you'll have a lot of hot water.I installed one Rinaai tankless,and the factory rep said to come out and check it(customer's request),he charges $60 an hour,plus travelling time both ways.They needed a new electric panel to have enough power for the tankless.And they're very unhappy with the unit.Too expensive.But the tankless people seem to have a great PR machine.All of the "green" customers I have want one.I tell them to call another plumber.

[master plumber mark]

I'm a plumber in Park City,Utah.I live at 6500 ft.I have a lot of customers sold on the "green" tankless units.I refuse to install them installed one Rinaai tankless,and the factory rep said to come out and check it(customer's request),he charges $60 an hour,plus travelling time both ways.They needed a new electric panel to have enough power for the tankless.And they're very unhappy with the unit.Too expensive.But the tankless people seem to have a great PR machine.All of the "green" customers I have want one.I tell them to call another plumber.

You are probably doing the right thing,,.refueseing to install them.

their are a few companies in our town that install them for about 3500.
and they dont care how they perform....



tankless people have a great PR machine.... .

[nhmaster]

I believe the average pay back period for tankless water heaters is somewhere around 15 years. I also believe that the majority of them will have to be replaced it the end of that time. like most "green" technology the hype is far more important than any actual savings. Here's the big factor though. Those folks that could really benefit from technology that would ACTUALLY save them some money can rarely afford the price of the equipment or the installation. Some scrape and borrow to purchase these products only to find that they have in reality saved nothing at all and in fact are now paying more if finance charges are added into the equation. These things are nothing new. Paloma and ELM have been on the market for years. We hated them then because they were service nightmares and did not live up to expectations. Why are we so in love with them now? Same crap, different day.

[master plumber mark]

I started the experiment on Sept 16th 07.....

the gas meter was on 0000000


now the date is Sept 28th....08.......

Looks like I have been sleeping at the wheel


anyway the meter is now at 41521.00

so basically my 75 gallon gas heater used

41,521 cu feet for one whole year.....

I went over the mark by 12 days.. ...too bad..
..




now all that is necessary is to figure out how much
I pay for a cubic foot of gas..in Indiana...


and I can tell you about what it cost me for the year..

and then divide by 12 and tell you howmuch it cost per month...


time flies when you are having fun.....


now I got to bring myself to installing a Takagi in my home and
let it run on the meter for a year...............

....

[Ladiesman271]

[SIZE=3]so basically my 75 gallon gas heater used

41,521 cu feet for one whole year.....

I went over the mark by 12 days.. ...too bad..
..




now all that is necessary is to figure out how much
I pay for a cubic foot of gas..in Indiana...


and I can tell you about what it cost me for the year..

and then divide by 12 and tell you howmuch it cost per month...


time flies when you are having fun.....


now I got to bring myself to installing a Takagi in my home and
let it run on the meter for a year...............

....




That is 415 CCF, or 425 therms for hot water.

As a comparison I used 1085 therms for space heating of my home last year inluding hot water (tankless with pilot) with a 50 year old gas furnace (in New England).

[Handymaner]

What the *&^!! I read all 11 pages, and it ends like this?? Any updates? I would be very interested in any outcomes.

[zl700]

In all fairness, if you needed a water heater, the price of the standard tank and install should be deducted from the install price of a tankless before the payback is calculated. Then it works out to about 7 years which is accurate.

But remember the #1 reason for buying tankless today is not savings but endless hot water by people who are sick of cold showers, and # 2 is space required, followed by energy savings as 3rd.

Interviewing plumbers shows it's the older generation that has difficulty accepting the new technology, becuase of difficulty in learning and understanding it.

Get with it, tankless is here to stay and growing.

To compare, why did you get a flat screen TV? That 25" would work just as well to watch the evening news.

15 year payback is what tank manufactures spread around.