Moen diverter--hot water runs out

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum. I must say that I am glad that I found it.
I installed a Moen diverter (pressure ballance/anti-scald) for a customer. She emails me a few days later saying that during a shower her water temp goes from hot to cold after only a few minutes. Sounded like a broken dip-tube in the water heater so I told her to have Sears come out (warranty). Sears told her the water heater was working fine. Now she is pissed and claims the problem did not exist before I installed the diverter (making it my fault). I returned to her home with an identical diverter, swapped all the internal parts, and called it a day. A few weeks later I got email from her saying that her problem still exists and she wants me to pay for a "real plumber" to come out and re-do all mywork.

I know the diverter is working correctly, but she has me second guessing myself.
Is there something that I am missing? Please, someone out there tell me there is nothing that could be wrong with the diverter that could cause her hot water to run out.

are we talking about a tub spout diverter or a tub shower valve or a cartridge?

What she needs to do is when she runs out of hot water open a sink faucet and see if the water is still cool or is it hot.

Moen 3189. She claims the temp only drops in the bathtub. My thermometer shows the same lower temp in the bath, kitchen, and laundry. That's why I thought it was a broken dip-tube. I checked and the tube and it's ok. It seems like her 40 gallon tank only holds ten gallons.

The MoenTrol valve you put in is the best I feel for bathtubs. People like to be able to trickle hot water in while bathing.

To help answer you question though... remove the allen screw under the handle on the sleeve that is limiting the amount of travel the handle can rotate towards hot.

is the water heater gas or electric?

How old is the heater?

If gas and the thermostat is all the way up and you pulled the tube all the way out to check it. You may have a bad thermostat.

If electric and the elements test O.K. with an amp meter and ohms out between 11-15 then replace the upper and lower thermostat.

Moen

You have one of the worst problems imaginable, and I don't mean the cold water. You have a customer who thinks your work is bad and is not satisfied. At this point, she may NEVER be satisfied no matter what you do or find. But, in essence, there is nothing that installing a new valve, and doing it properly, will make the hot water run out any sooner than it did previously, but you are not going to convince her of that. How long does the hot water last when filling the tub? Plug the tub and run it until it happens then measure the depth of the water in the tub, and also calculate the approximate gallonage. Exactly how long does the water last in the shower? Plug the tub and run the shower until it happens then compare it to the previous measurement. AND at that time, also check the other faucets hot water temperature. IF they are all at the same temperature, AND the shower delivered about the same amount of water as the tub did, then it is a hot water heater problem. Either it is too small or its temperature is too low and you have to use mostly hot water to get a comfortable temperature.

Thanks everyone,

I needed someone to tell me it was a customer problem and not my plumbing work.

The tank is a 40 gallon Kenmoore, 4 years old, gas. My installed valve does't leak hot water and the set screw is set correctly.

The Moentrol valve is the one I use for everyday installs for my tub liner business. This is the first time I've had a problem. Since I've never had a problem before I thought I might have some mystery issue with the anti-scald or pressure-balance. I knew it was impossible but I needed to hear it from someone other than the customer.

I'll agree to have a "real plumber" come to house only if she agrees to pay his fee when he proves me right. I'll make sure that she, me, her plumber, and my plumber are all there at the same time. Maybe I'll finally get her off my back then.

If she didn't have the problem B 4 you installed the valve it is just coincidence that she has a water heater problem right at this time.

For what reason did you install the valve?

Moen

You don't have to pull the dip tube. Just start running hot water and see how quickly the hot side gets cold. But if it is only 2 or 4 years old it is outside the time frame for the bad dip tubes. She sounds like the auto mechanic that says, "Boy, this it the first time I have ever seen that happen".

Be sure she agrees, in writing, to pay the whole tab for both plumbers when the problem is found not to be the valve.

I communicate with her thru email. I sent her a note asking to see the report from the Sears guy. She freaked out and accused me of thinking that she was trying to hide something from me. The following is my latest reply...


"Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude about the report. I was just curious about the tests they did. No way did I even think you trying to hide something from me. I know you wouldn't do that. Sears would normally mark the date of their visit on your water heater. Since they didn't I assumed that they gave you some kind of report telling you what they did.

It seems to come down to this. I think the mixing valve is working 100% correctly. Since I can't keep coming back to your place over and over to replace something that isn't broken we both need a solution. So...

I agree with you, a new plumber should come out to your house to see if the valve I put in is working correctly. I just don't think it should be at my expense if it turns out that I am right. I hope this sounds fair to you.

I have done extensive research on this issue. I have joined a plumbers chat room that is viewed by hundreds of professional plumbers and have explained the situation. I have talked with every plumber I know. Everyone agrees that there is no way your hot water running out is related to the valve I installed. I know you don't believe me for some reason... I'm ok with that. That's why I think you should have your own plumber come over to check out the valve I installed. Let me know when you would like to do this. Do you want to set up the appointment or would you like me to?"



....this sound fair to anyone? I think it's the only way to resolve this...besides telling her to get lost.

Message

Yes, but I am afraid she is too far gone to be reasonable about this, regardless of how it turns out. In this area, she might be about to call the Registrar of Contractors and file a complaint, and then I would have to meet his investigator and demonstrate to him what is happening. Then, since their agency is subject to a "sunset" vote periodically, which would shut down the agency, he would side with her and make me "correct" it or pay to have someone else do it if she insisted on that.

Tell her that you need to see the invoice from Sears so you know what they tested on the water heater so you can rule out those items as part of the problem.

what most people fail to notice is when you run a tub full tilt the amount of water coming out is much more than a 2.5 gal per min faucet so you notice the water temp drop faster in the tub.. my bets on a faulty thermostat in the water heater


good luck

what is the temp of the hot water when it has been running for 2 min. with no cold added?

temperature

At this point he probably does not know, and I doubt that their relationship is such that she will let him in to check it.

The water was scalding when we checked it. The dial was turned all the way up on the heater (by her).We used a thermometer but I forget what the actual temp was. After a few minutes the it went from hot to cold very quickly. Thats why I thought it was a dip tube issue (it's not, I checked).

She says the temp only drops in the shower. When we tested it the temp (naturally) dropped at all the hot faucets in the house at the same time.

She says that Sears gave her no paperwork when they did warranty check. I seriously doubt they even came to house.

I sent her the above email a few days ago with no answer as of yet. I'm actually looking forward to her next move!

Tell me how you checked the dip tube.

Is this house on a slab?

Moen

Have we determined whether there is a circulation system on the water heater?

Cass said:

Tell me how you checked the dip tube.

Is this house on a slab?

Click to expand...

I physically pulled the tube from the heater. It was aprox. 2/3rds the length of the heater and had no visible damage.