Which are the most efficient storage water heaters (gas)?

[Raymond Sukys]

This may have been discussed numerous times, but I did not find anything on point in my search. I would like to find the most efficient 50 gallon water heater that uses natural gas. I do not need special side venting. A normal flue would work. Does anyone have any recommendations?

[jimbo]

Most manufacturers make a series of "good-better-best" models, and one of the featues is often more insulation. But the difference is not huge.

A basic gas WH might have an energy factor of .58 where the best one might be .62

Gas WH have a somewhat lower energy factor than electric because heat is lost up the flue pipe when the burner is running, and also to some extent by convection during standby.

You have to go to a power vent to get better numbers.

[jadnashua]

The most efficient water heater is an indirectly heated one with a high efficiency boiler. Some of the boilers are over 95%. But, if you don't have a boiler, then...

[GoTanklessToday]

If you are talking about standard tank style water heaters, they do have models that come with whats called a "super efficient" rating. What does that mean? Besides having more insulation, sometimes more warranty, and costing more, the super is not much different. It's marketing hype. Like someone mentioned, its the "good, better, best" mentality that they are catering to. Now there are exceptions, but few. If you lived in an area where you have subzero temperatures often, a Super may be a good option, but then only if the heater is installed in the garage or other unheated space. For us, a super is usually used when possible so the customer can get a rebate from the energy company. I always laugh inside when someone wants to pay the $50.00 difference for a super to get a $50.00 rebate.

Tankless is the way to go for many. The average tankless owner saves about 30% when comparing it to a tank style heater. While 30 % sounds great, it really isn't that much. Gas is already a very efficient means of heating water.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

It's marketing hype. Like someone mentioned, its the "good, better, best" mentality that they are catering to. Now there are exceptions, but few.



I know what you mean there.


New Year's Day I got a call from a customer who just had a house built, his thankless tankless by state industries would not work. He said that all he wanted was hot water.

I already know that I can't help him; that new of a unit shouldn't be "not" operating to begin with but I referred him to the state's website to run him through all the troubleshooting points to see if the unit was in lockout or something.

He stated the plumber who installed it wouldn't work on it, and was calling down the list of plumbers to find someone to get it back in operation. I referred him to the only company in the tristate that works on PowerVent water heaters mostly, and "hopefully" I've sent him to someone who can work on them.

4 days later,

I get a call, same guy, now this guy is pissed at all plumbers of the world because the plumber convinced him this was the way to go and you can take a 4 hour shower.....but why would you want to???

He tells me that they don't work on those units, stated only an authorized rep CAN since it is under warranty.

4 days later, no hot water, no one in the tri-state with the knowledge to fix it. You KNOW it's a part, but which part? I told him that you are probably on your own with the luxury of 1-800 numbers and the tell-tale head scratching waiting for the UPS guy to show up with what "may" be the right part to fix the problem.

I could hear his heart sink even lower when I divulged that somewhere in that literature of that thankless tankless that in order to keep the warranty in tact, you have to break it down and delime/decalcify the compartment to keep it operating at the efficiency that it was the day it was installed. Otherwise the buildup will make it much more difficult to heat that water at the rate it passes through it.


I'm not picking on you, I'm picking on the product and the fact I have a customer that will probably never use my services because he was victimized by the marketing hype that these tankless units are foolproof, their not.

And the "what ifs" pop up after the sale which puts the consumer at a disadvantage completely. I'm pretty sure he went more than 4 days without hot water.

If it was a tank unit, he'd have hot water for him and his family due to the vast majority of trained hands to fix it without delay.

[GoTanklessToday]

The problem that you describe is that someone sold and installed something that they know nothing about. I've had tank customers without hot water for days because the nit-wit plumber put the heat traps in backwards and no water would flow. He said "sorry, I dont do warranty work" and drove away. It is as likely that the plumber who installed that tankless heater installed it wrong. That has nothing to do with the product being inferior. Remember, tankless technology is not new technology. Noritz has been making and selling tankless water heaters worldwide for 50 years. Just not here in the USA.

I agree that tankless water heaters are not for everyone. Ive said that before, and I believe it to be true. But if you want one, and you hire a professional that knows about them, and who can work on them, they are BY FAR superior to tank heaters in every way, with one exception. They can't provide high volumes of water in a short period of time.

We have 50 customers a month here that buy tankless heaters, and 5 times that many more who buy them from other contractors. They work very well here. The only customers without hot water for 4 days around here are those who haven't called us.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I gather that you've read my response,


and you are avoiding the jist of my reply.


Not enough trained monkeys in the area to service those when they go down. Licensed plumbers are "supposed" to be the only nit-wits to install them. You are quick to blame the plumber and not fault the product.

The simplicity of repairs of electric/gas type tank water heaters are much easier to resolve than a 1-800 number because no knowledgeable or qualified techs are available to service.


I know you are open-minded enough to understand that the customer that called me was left hanging out to dry with his purchase. If he's smart and doesn't want that consistent situation to plague him, he probably put a tank in like he should of.

HD quit selling PowerVent water heaters in my area because of service issues/callbacks on the those units operating properly within the warrranty guidelines. Something, sensor/hot surface ignitor/cracked vaccum tube always hits those units within the first 6 years. I get calls all the time for them. Blower goes out.....or gas valve circuity malfunctions........BIG BUCKS.

Gas water heater? Thermocouple........tops

Electric water heater? Thermostats.....maybe elements

Both of which is minimal money spent to repair as opposed to PowerVent units where everythings starts around $150 and climbs. Tankless falls under this same paralells since the technology is basically the same; compartment instead of a tank. Same safety devices.

jadnashua hit the head of the nail; there is no equal to any better efficiency of heating water indirect from a boiler. That, is a insulated tank.

[GoTanklessToday]

I'm not avoiding any part of your post. In fact, I don't necessarily disagree with you on most of what you are saying. Tank heaters are simple. I agree that the points you have made are true, to the extent of simplicity, cost of repairs, etc. Your customer was left to dry not because of a bad product. He was left to dry because there wasn't anyone who could help him. Also, since I happen to know just how reliable these systems are, (if installed correctly) chances are better than 50% that his problem was installer induced. My point of the nit wit plumber who installed the heat traps up side down is to show how even such a simple thing can be done incorrectly. The guy who did that was a licensed plumber.

If you don't want to learn about tankless, that's your business. But if you finally give in, you will see what we learned years ago. They do work well, and your customers will love them. All my "monkeys" are trained in installation and repair. So maybe what you are saying is that in YOUR area, tankless heaters aren't a good idea. It sounds like a business opportunity to me.

[Gary Swart]

I don't want to get into the tankless vs tank water heater issue. The answer to the question originally asked is in two parts. First check the home page of this forum and find the link to water heaters. Second answer, Rheem makes excellent water heaters.

[Cass]

In this area, southern Ohio tri-state, the majority of people here have to deal with hard water. 12-35 and sometimes 40 GPG of hardness. I don't think this is an area where tankless would work well without a lot of maintenance on the units. I would guess that even a little build up on the heat exchanger would drasticly reduce the efficency of the unit wiping out any saveings.

Tankless, are you in a hard water area?

[GoTanklessToday]

In this area, southern Ohio tri-state, the majority of people here have to deal with hard water. 12-35 and sometimes 40 GPG of hardness. I don't think this is an area where tankless would work well without a lot of maintenance on the units. I would guess that even a little build up on the heat exchanger would drasticly reduce the efficency of the unit wiping out any saveings.

Tankless, are you in a hard water area?


No, not at all. Our water here in the Pacific Northwest is clean (generally). I agree that tankless may not be a great option for all areas of the country. We don't have to drain / flush our heaters here like you need to do in other parts of the country.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Another thing to consider with a tankless unit? Back when I used to smash my friend's head with half-full beer cans across the yard, they "used" to not bend up and dent as much when they were designed thicker and could get good money scrapping. A good thing when we was beer poor and aluminum can rich. :D



The thickness of those compartments are very thin; thin like all the insinkerator insta-hot dispensors. The thinness of those tanks are intentional not only to allow fast temperature rise by the heating of them but in comparison to tank heaters........

Like an 1/8" thickness of a tank compared to a 1/16" or less. I'm not making this up folks. It's thin.

Go price the replacement of that compartment including labor when it goes out of warranty and you'll be crying.

You'll be forced to decide if you want to spend alllllllllll that money over again for a newer unit or take the cheaper way with a tank unit that usually doesn't cost over $400 for either under 50 gallon units.

Tankless has it's place...just like tank heaters. My only opposition to its cause is the countless opinions in favor of them never tell the whole story of after it is in your house and the repairs/maintenance follows along.

"Some" of those considerations knock down the limited savings those units offer.

Now if they built those like the Ruud copper-coiled water heaters that worked solely off pressure....that would be a great thing. There are homes in my area that still have those in operation, to this day. Amazing to say the least and the copper piping inside of them show no signs of wall thinning whatsoever.

I'd know that because I've scrapped the insides of them out....the thickness of K soft copper.

[GoTanklessToday]

The heat exchanger on any tankless heater is warranted for 10 years, and on one model 15. They typically last 20-25 years in reality. If they do fail, a replacement today for the most common brand is 138.00. It takes about an hour to replace the heat exchanger.

Lets see... the average cost to have a gas water heater installed in my area is about 1000.00 (including all the code upgrades they make us do here). Average life expectancy here is 10 years. So lets say a customer installs one on Jan 1st 2007. Odds are, they will be replacing that heater again in Jan 2017. Now with inflation, that installation will cost 1300.00. So they have spent 2300.00 now on their hot water system, and it's only been 10 years. In 2027, its time again for a replacement, this time we'll say 1600.00. So that house has had nearly 4000.00 worth of heaters in 20 years. The 3000.00 tankless installed in Jan 2007 is still going strong at 20 years, and all the while it has saved the customer 2400.00 in gas (30 % at 400/yr avg). It has also provided them with unlimited hot water. Hmm. I wonder which is the better value. Of course, this little exersize is heavy on "theory", but there has been a lot testing in the past 50 years to support this theory. In Japan, they typically last 25+ years. We just don't know here yet.


One more thing... there isn't one part on a tankless heater that will render it useless. Every part can be replaced component style. Install one and its the last heater that house will ever need.

One question for you guys in the bad water areas. Is there a way to "treat" water to get the bad stuff out before sending it to the heater? I know nothing about water treatment systems, and rarely encounter them here in the PNW.

[master plumber mark]

We mid west plumbers just cant sell those
new fangled tankless heaters .... especialy for
some billy-bobs double wide trailer .....

believe me,
their are a LOT of " billy -bobs" in the mid west


just for debate here.....I installed a 40 gallon gas
brad white today for 695.00.... for "billey -bob"

and unless he accidently shoots the heater while cleaning his
squirrel gun,

it will probably last him about 9-15 years without having to
do any maintaince on it....

Basically, I am doing a cost feasibility study to see if a tankles heater would go well in this area....

so what DO you charge in Seattle for the

Tankless heater???? average ball park instll????

[kordts]

Mark, check this site out.

http://tanklessva.com/index.html

[GoTanklessToday]

We mid west plumbers just cant sell those
new fangled tankless heaters .... especialy for
some billy-bobs double wide trailer .....

believe me,
their are a LOT of " billy -bobs" in the mid west


Basically, I am doing a cost feasibility study to see if a tankles heater would go well in this area....

so what DO you charge in Seattle for the

Tankless heater???? average ball park instll????

LOL, we have some billy bob's here too..

The standard tankless system here in Seattle will average about $3000.00 plus tax.

[master plumber mark]

Billey bob would probably throw me out of his

double wide trailer if I tried to sell him a tankless heater for

$3000.....

He could put 1 40 gallon gas heater with a 10

year warranty for 800 bucks !!! and save $2200...

He would say to me as he icked my ass off his
front pourch.....

Thats a lot of beer money I would be pissing away
just to have a tankless heater.......

and I could buy me a bass boat with the difference too!!!


these mid west hill-billies aint stupid you know,
they were not born yesterday


,



At $3000 , I get the feeling you are installing these tankless heaters

for rich Millionairre Micorsoft employees and other high techey people in Seattle that

need to feel "ecologically correct" and basically have more money

than they have common sense...... (or they just dont like beer)


you are lucky to live in an area that has money just fallling off the trees......


here in the Ohio valley and Indiana you have to cater to a more frugal crowd...

http://www.weilhammerplumbing.com/houseofhorrors/

[srdenny]

The standard tankless system here in Seattle will average about $3000.00 plus tax.[/QUOTE]

Tankless
Does that include running a new gas line and Cat III flue?

I did one last week which I had quoted $6000 for. Turns out I should have charged $7000.

[srdenny]

Heat exchanger maintenance is made quite simple by using the Webstone "Isolator" valve kit when installing a tankless. Two buckets, a bottle of CLR, a couple of old washing machine hoses and a small pump and the job of cleaning the exchanger is accomplished in 10 minutes by the cabaña boy.

[master plumber mark]

Heat exchanger maintenance is made quite simple by using the Webstone "Isolator" valve kit when installing a tankless. Two buckets, a bottle of CLR, a couple of old washing machine hoses and a small pump and the job of cleaning the exchanger is accomplished in 10 minutes by the cabaña boy.


anyone who would pay 6 + grand to have a tankless water heater is
literally out of their minds......LOL


when you could put a normal 50 gallon gas heater in for around
1000 with a 10 year warranty, and never have to touch it again
you willl NEVER recoup your 6000 investment......

I sell people a LIFETIME gas 50 gallon installed for $1800.....

and if you put a blanket on it ,
and or a bi-metal heat baffle in the chimmney
I would venture to guess it is much more
efficinet than the tankless unit....
---------------------------------------------------------------


if you can get that kind of money from soneone,
more power to you, I guess...


but someone still has to do the maintaince occasioinally
and it probably will be ignored by
the customer untill it is in very dire need of service.....

I dont know what a cabana boy makes per hour,

but if you send a plumber out to the home its gonna be a min of $150
to de-lime that unit.....and that is the only fella I would allow to
touch my 6,000 dollar investment....

now how often should this $6000 tankless unit be serviced???


but I suppose if someone is crazy enough to pay 6,000 for a tankless
what is $150 twice a year mean to them anyway???

[GoTanklessToday]

Heat exchanger maintenance is made quite simple by using the Webstone "Isolator" valve kit when installing a tankless. Two buckets, a bottle of CLR, a couple of old washing machine hoses and a small pump and the job of cleaning the exchanger is accomplished in 10 minutes by the cabaña boy.


I agree. Those who are scared of tankless just haven't taken time to understand them. And for the record our customers aren't buying tankless because of all the money they will save. They want unlimited hot water. Our average customer household income is in excess of 100K. Sure, we do installs for affluent customers, but we do just as many for police officers, school teachers, and factory workers.

Our customers want them. If those of you heel draggers would put as much energy into selling them as you do trying to discredit them, your customers will love them too. Again, they aren't for everyone, so don't try to sell them to everyone.

Our avg price is 3k, which includes gas and venting. We install about 50 a month now. That may sound like a lot to some, but there is one contractor in California who is installing in excess of 200 a month. Every month.

[master plumber mark]

I would love to install 200 a month...of anything..

but I know $3000 would not fly well here......


I used to install solar panels a long time ago and
they had all the information to prove a pay back
in so many years for the investment....
or course it was all smoke and mirrors...



With what or how do you do to justify the extra costs
to the customer..???

I am sure you must have some sort of pay back
calculations or estimates??

or are people just flocking to you because it is the
newest fad and they have seen it all on the internet??


They see the promise of "unlimited hot water"
and just take a blind leap of faith???

So do they even think "why do I need unlimited hot water"
how long do i really need to be in the shower for???


Though I dont think that the tankless can provide unlimited hot
water to more than one fixture at a time....

it just grabs them I suppose...and wont let go......

and then they write that big check

[jadnashua]

Where I live, you need to raise the incoming water nearly 80 degrees to have comfortable water at the shower. Now, for 2.5gallon/min head and an 85% efficient system, that's about a 113KBTU unit. That's not hot enough for your dishwasher, and if you want to fill the tub in anything like a timely fashion, most valves are in the order of 6 gallons/minute, so that's about 271KBTU/hr unit. Try running the washing machine, or nearly anything else at the sametime,and your needs ramp up radically. Now, in the summer, the loads are much less, since the incoming water is probably 30 degrees warmer. Having lived with one for awhile, unless you live in a temperate location (discounting all other issues), it just doesn't work out. Much ofthe mid-western USA can get stretchs of below zero for awhile - the incoming water approaches freezing. It just doesn't work out - a tank is a much preferable situation. Yes, some of the tankless are designed to allow them to be run in serial to provide larger heat rises, or larger flows, but now you have two units to worry about for maintenance. The physics just don't make it reasonable unless the user is willing to make lifestyle changes. And at that, the hardware costs more, too. WHy?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

The following events took place between 8:24 pm and 2:04 am
Events occur, in turned based time.

Customer calls last night, a referral from HD. Customer has 5 bathrooms and 7 adults living at their home. Both the upstairs and downstairs of this house is completely finished with full kitchen (parents live with kids, not the other way around) First words out of the customer's mouth, "I'm sitting over here at LW's, just left HD because they didn't have a tankless water heater to buy. HD sells Poloma sp? and they were out. I "already" know this customer has been influenced by the market hype of these tankless units, otherwise it wouldn't of been the first words out of his mouth.

I start talking to him, asked him how close the main trunk line of the gas service is. He told me it is on the opposite side of the furnace next to the water heater. I told him the absolute minimum need for his application starts at 3/4" and goes up. Given his demand with 7 adults will be safe to say 1" is more realistic, don't you think?

Mind you, this is an emergency call; this guy ONLY cares about having hot water come monday morning @ 6am. The sun could fall from the sky, it doesn't matter to him. He's has to worry about showers come monday morning before they go to work. I found out the unit this customer wanted to buy that was a Poloma was $200 with a 4-7.5 gpm flow rating.

See the problem here? The customer drives for the cheap, the reality of his situation calls for a much higher GPM rating on his unit to accomplish hot water on demand with the combination of other demands (dishwasher/washing machine) without a lower temperature because of the shared use.

I explained to the customer that in our area that calcium buildup/liming of the heat exchanger requires cabana boy to clean it periodically to maintain it's original efficiency to maintain that GPM flow it was so gloriously remarked about to convince the masses that it will serve your needs.

Verbatim from the customer, "Well it sounds like you are trying to talk me out of the tankless." I replied, "No, I'm telling you the reality of these units and what you have to value what your personal time is worth to keep maintaining this unit." "You have substantial costs to install it, major rework of the gas line along with substantial costs involved in running the new flue for the tankless." "The unit you are purchasing has to be ran in stainless steel due to the high temperature of the burned gases which is in excess of 500 degrees." "Galvanised piping cannot be used due to the high temperature, the creation of toxic fumes and condensation which is detrimental to the tankless unit." "In other words there is no way you are going to afford me even during regular scheduled hours along with the cost of a tankless unit along with the vent kit and all the ceilings I have to tear down to install this unit."

He said, "We'll, I guess we consider ourselves pretty fortunate with our current situation." "Our water heater is 14 years old and we've never had to do anything until now." < A.O. Smith tank. 50 gallon gas regular vented.

He basically scoffed at the numbers I gave him to get the tankless in and said there is no way the savings would recoup, especially if he has to periodically "babysit" the unit so he can take a hot shower without paying hired hands quarterly to clean an ongoing issue.

He heads to Sears (by my recommendation) and in calling them before he gets there, no 75 gallon gas heaters in stock. (we find out when I arrive that due to the location of this water heater, nothing is going in other than a 50 and the 50 ended up being a ton of work after all. He brought the 75 over to the house when I arrived, had the wife take it back and get a 50 gallon 12 year GE. (Flue venting killed the idea of "trying" to make the 75 go in, 4" minimum and they had 3 going to a B-vent chase.

Customer wanting a pan installed under this heater made everything on top the heater change, dramatically. I charged almost $600 last night to get this in, including materials which included a PRV and copper pipe/fittings. He provided the 3/4 ball valve and 3/4" DUF's/aluminum pan and bricks.

The expansion tank you see in the pictures below is defective. I brought a ST-12 upon the assumption a 75 gal heater was going in. He didn't want to pay the cost for that larger tank upon the discovery his tank was bad and only two years old so he opted to take care of the EXP tank himself.

After I wrote the bill, I always give my first time customers a discount. The guy was so glad to have the luxury of waking up sunday morning (probably as late as I did LOL!) knowing he has hot water for under a $1000.

Tankless cannot touch those numbers. Neither the install nor the base price of this particular customer's needs, excluding the vent kit.

I told the customer since I'm working for his next door neighbor across the lake next week, I'll come over and replace that expansion tank ($24) @ no charge along with I want to strap that expansion tank to the ceiling and get some metal hanger iron on that 3" flue as well.

Now the customer doesn't even have to worry about spending another $50 plus the time to replace the tank; he's getting it for free.

The majority of people treat plumbing as PUT IT IN AND FORGET IT, WORRY ABOUT IT WHEN IT BREAKS. There might be cabana boys running around that have the time and knowledge to tinker with their plumbing but the majority of people follow the out of site out of mind theory.

GoTankless,

Since your username is solely created to promote,

I'm going to invest a little of my time and call around to say, 20 mfgs. of tankless heaters and get the prices of those heat exchangers you stated are on average, $138. Then I'm going to find out what it costs to have "trained hands" replace that exchanger in retrospect to a plumber replacing a water heater like I did last night.

My response time was 45 minutes. If I was going last to replace a heat exchanger on that unit, I wouldn't of been able to, would have to wait till monday, the customer would be conflicted with what is the better choice; buy a whole new tankless or pay to have parts replaced on the aging unit.

What's good about these types of threads?

Promoters of tankless water heaters don't handle constructive criticism of their product very well. In retort, they start pulling these inflated numbers out of the air and try to diminish factual evidence such as I and others provide on a continual basis that pretty much should do one thing to the many readers of these threads:

Take all the information you read, examine it greatly, find out who in your area has the capability and availability of parts and expertise before you dare stick your neck out to try these new devices.

GoTankless "tried" to blame the plumber on my one customers situation on New Year's Day on being a nit-wit and plumbers in his area install heat trap nipples upside down.

The reality of my customer's situation was he had a product no one knows how to work on, no one can fix it and he has to rely on 1-800 numbers to fix it, along with a slew of parts to figure out what will fix it by the average consumer with no background knowledge of "how-to".

Market hype folks. Until they make a better product with parts availability and trained hands to work on them with the elimination of efficiency loss due to calcium buildup,

I cannot mislead my customer base to invest in something that leaves them helpless when the times come when **** goes wrong. It's predictable, products fail and my ability to solve my customer's hot water issue last night laid solely on the product I was working with.




word


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/12807001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70/DUNBAR/12807002.jpg

[kordts]

Everybody could drive a piece of crap Yugo, live in a trailer or otherwise not spend money on what we think is important. Some people want tankless heaters. It's a proven technology. It is a growing market. I don't push it, I talk most people out of it. But the applications where it will work, I sell them and install them. Like it or not, being a plumber requires some salesmanship. Talking someone out of a tankless is salesmanship. I want to be the guy in my area that is known as the tankless guy. With that comes a need to be honest and tell people when thay aren't suited for them. I think gotankless is that kind of guy. He isn't saying that tankless is right in every application. One of things plumbers need to do is realize that you don't have to sell a product because it is cheaper, you sell the best because it's better, sometimes it is less expensive, but you sell it because it's the best, plus the bigger the price tag, the higher the markup. The customer is happy because they have the best, whether it's toilet, faucet, or sillcock, and we are happy because it was profitable. Everybody wins.

[master plumber mark]

if a customer wants to shoot themselves in the
foot, .......well thats ok with me too.....

I just dont want ot be the guy loading the gun....

or the plumber
he is pi//ed off at when it does not live up to the hype...

or the guy two years from now he calls crying about
a broken down $3500 unit on Sunday afternoon.....


Rugged did the 100% right thing ,
time and situation permitting
he still was better off without the tankless unit...


I dont see a problem with selling the tankless heaters to
customers as long as they are made completely aware
of the pros and cons involved in owning one ......

make them sign a waiver stateing
......dont come crying to me if it fails to live up to your expectations.

most stats on the tankless look like smoke
and mirrors to me..........if any legit stats exist at all .....

but the countless complaints are out there for all the world to see

I feel the tests done by Bradford white posted on my web site
white speak for themselves.......

[kordts]

Why does a customer have to sign a waiver for a tankless? Hell, beer commercials imply that drinking their swill will cause hotties to throw themselves at you, but breweries don't make you sign a waiver to drink their product. I install a lot of water heaters but more and more customers ask about tankless, and I am a fool not to take advantage of "buzz" being generated that didn't cost me a penny.

[Phil H2]

I don't read all of the threads here. But, I don't recall any homeowners asking questions about repairing their tankless heater. I know tankless aren't common. But haven't heard much bad about them except from plumbers that don't like them. But, it is very possible that I missed the homeowners problems.

My first experiance with tankless was 15-20 years ago and it left a bad taste. I worked at a place with 6 big Palomas used for shower buildings. There was probably a problem with the overall plumbing design. The output temperature varied when the water demand changed all of the sudden (The 3 separate systems also had tempering valves that did not help and Chicago pushbutton valves on the showers with very low flow heads). Wildly varying temperature was a problems from day one. With a fairly stable flow, they worked wonderfully. After about a year, one thermocouple went bad and the closest parts to So. Calif. were in WA or OR. The threads on the thermocouple were metric. They were installed in a place with terrible water quality (harder than rocks and full of minerals). But that never seemed to bother them. They were replaced with tanks a year or two after being installed because the problem with temperature fluctuation could not be solved.

On the other hand, I had a friend that was very happy with his little Paloma tankless. He lived in a cabin on the Big Island of Hawaii. He had no indoor plumbing. Rain water from his roof was collected in a cistern. The shower was outside and used the Paloma for heat. I visited him a couple times and it worked great. These are my only personal experiences with tankless. This all happened 15-20 years ago. I still like the simple and plain design of a good-old tank water heater with a standing pilot.

[GoTanklessToday]

B]I would love to install 200 a month...of anything..[/B]

but I know $3000 would not fly well here......

You will be surprised how well they sell when you actually try.



With what or how do you do to justify the extra costs
to the customer..???

There is no need to justify the price, people aren't buying them for justification of price. They want unlimited hot water.



I am sure you must have some sort of pay back
calculations or estimates??

The pay back is in the form of long life, along with a 30-50 % savings (conservatively) in hot water costs.



or are people just flocking to you because it is the
newest fad and they have seen it all on the internet??

There you go again... PEOPLE... these are not new heaters, nor is this a fad. Tankless heaters have been used in other countries around the world for 50+ years.



They see the promise of "unlimited hot water"
and just take a blind leap of faith???

Our customers are well read, and want high tech equipment. Plus, it doesnt hurt that I spend 12000.00 a month on advertising...



So do they even think "why do I need unlimited hot water"
how long do i really need to be in the shower for???

It's not just about taking long showers. What if they have that 100+ gallon soaking tub? Lots of houses here do. Before tankless, they are using those tubs for storage bins. What if they have 3 teenagers who are showering several times a day? Simple thing is that finally now they have options that will allow them to use that tub, and not worry about who's turn it is in the shower.


Though I dont think that the tankless can provide unlimited hot
water to more than one fixture at a time....

It depends on which model they install. Most will. In our climate, we get between 4 - 4.5 GPM at 120 degrees. That is enough to run two showers at the same time. That doesn't mean they will actually get to do that. It just means that is what the heater will do. Pipe size, condition, layout, etc determines the actual output to the homeowner.



it just grabs them I suppose...and wont let go......

and then they write that big check

Imagine that. A plumbing contractor wanting their customer to write a big check. I don't know about where you all are from, but here, its VERY expensive to be in business. We need all the big checks we can get.

[GoTanklessToday]

The following events took place between 8:24 pm and 2:04 am


just left HD because they didn't have a tankless water heater to buy. HD sells Poloma sp? and they were out.

Classic. OUT OF STOCK. I wonder why? I love this one.



I start talking to him, asked him how close the main trunk line of the gas service is. He told me it is on the opposite side of the furnace next to the water heater. I told him the absolute minimum need for his application starts at 3/4" and goes up. Given his demand with 7 adults will be safe to say 1" is more realistic, don't you think?

Wow, you really had me there for a minute.. I was rooting for you. All your questions were right on... I thought you were gonna sell a tankless. As for number of people, it really doesnt matter. The BTU's of the heater and the distance from the meter determine what the pipe size will be. Dang it... you were really on target there for a minute...


Mind you, this is an emergency call; this guy ONLY cares about having hot water come monday morning @ 6am. The sun could fall from the sky, it doesn't matter to him. He's has to worry about showers come monday morning before they go to work. I found out the unit this customer wanted to buy that was a Poloma was $200 with a 4-7.5 gpm flow rating.

Under the circumstances you describe here, I would have sold him a tank heater too, but only after giving him the options for going tankless. But if he truly said he only cares about getting hot water back by morning, then i'd have done the same thing you did. I would have been done and gone by 11pm though if I got there at 9:15.



I explained to the customer that in our area that calcium buildup/liming of the heat exchanger requires cabana boy to clean it periodically to maintain it's original efficiency to maintain that GPM flow it was so gloriously remarked about to convince the masses that it will serve your needs.

Verbatim from the customer, "Well it sounds like you are trying to talk me out of the tankless." I replied, "No, I'm telling you the reality of these units and what you have to value what your personal time is worth to keep maintaining this unit." "You have substantial costs to install it, major rework of the gas line along with substantial costs involved in running the new flue for the tankless." "The unit you are purchasing has to be ran in stainless steel due to the high temperature of the burned gases which is in excess of 500 degrees." "Galvanised piping cannot be used due to the high temperature, the creation of toxic fumes and condensation which is detrimental to the tankless unit." "In other words there is no way you are going to afford me even during regular scheduled hours along with the cost of a tankless unit along with the vent kit and all the ceilings I have to tear down to install this unit."


He basically scoffed at the numbers I gave him to get the tankless in and said there is no way the savings would recoup, especially if he has to periodically "babysit" the unit so he can take a hot shower without paying hired hands quarterly to clean an ongoing issue.

That customer was not a good prospect for tankless, plus there are many false statements in your pitch to him. Stainless venting is not for heat. Its for cooler exhaust, and the byproduct there of.. Condensation. Plus, it has to be sealed vent pipe because of the cat 3 rating. Tankless heaters have blowers to evacuate the exhaust. (most anyway). Hard water? That's the one thing I can't comment on because I know nothing of that. I will do some research for you as well.



He heads to Sears (by my recommendation)

My only question is WHY on earth would you send this guy to a retailer to get their heater? Is your company a "for profit" outfit? Get a warehouse and stock up man...



After I wrote the bill, I always give my first time customers a discount. The guy was so glad to have the luxury of waking up sunday morning (probably as late as I did LOL!) knowing he has hot water for under a $1000.

He wasn't a good tankless prospect. Although we "go tankless today" all the time, the majority require a days notice to get done. The average tankless conversion is taking our crews about 6 man hours. One thing we do though, is keep a stock of "loaner" heaters on hand. When we run into the situation like you are describing here, we replace the leaker with one of our loaners to use until we can get back to do the conversion.



Tankless cannot touch those numbers. Neither the install nor the base price of this particular customer's needs, excluding the vent kit.

Absolutely, you are right on the cost part. Tankless is 3 times the money. It's not always about cost.



The majority of people treat plumbing as PUT IT IN AND FORGET IT, WORRY ABOUT IT WHEN IT BREAKS. There might be cabana boys running around that have the time and knowledge to tinker with their plumbing but the majority of people follow the out of site out of mind theory.

You are right. That is why for now, you will be selling way more tanks than tankless heaters. No doubt about it.


GoTankless,

Since your username is solely created to promote,

I'm going to invest a little of my time and call around to say, 20 mfgs. of tankless heaters and get the prices of those heat exchangers you stated are on average, $138. Then I'm going to find out what it costs to have "trained hands" replace that exchanger in retrospect to a plumber replacing a water heater like I did last night.

When you do spend some time, you will find that there aren't 20 manufacturers to call. The big 5 are: Noritz, Rinnai, Paloma (also sold as Rheem. Did you know that Paloma OWNS Rheem?), Takagi, Bosch. We're only talking about GAS fired tankless heaters here. As for cost, if we aren't on a flat rate job, our hourly rate is 100/hr.



My response time was 45 minutes. If I was going last to replace a heat exchanger on that unit, I wouldn't of been able to, would have to wait till monday, the customer would be conflicted with what is the better choice; buy a whole new tankless or pay to have parts replaced on the aging unit.

I wouldn't be able to change a heat exchanger at 9:15pm either. We don't stock them because the odds of any going bad for the next 10 years is nil. Sometimes you have to remind your customer that it won't be the end of the world if they go without hot water for a day (or put the loaner in...). I can have any part for any brand in 24 hours or less.



Promoters of tankless water heaters don't handle constructive criticism of their product very well.

Actually, I sell a fraction of tankless compared to tank style heaters. Not everyone can afford them, and there are some people who can't have them. Heck, there are even those who don't want them. I sell whatever my customer wants. I am able to do so because I've taken the time to learn about the equipment.


Take all the information you read, examine it greatly, find out who in your area has the capability and availability of parts and expertise before you dare stick your neck out to try these new devices.

They are not new, (50+ year old technology). But I do agree with the rest of this statement. Take your own advice and learn about them. Get factory training and be the tankless guy in your area. Or not... its your call. Someone will be stepping up though. May as well be you...



GoTankless "tried" to blame the plumber on my one customers situation on New Year's Day on being a nit-wit and plumbers in his area install heat trap nipples upside down.

Get your facts straight... I said the plumber here in my area was a nit wit. A guy who sells himself as a long time "master" plumber did that. My point (again) was to point out that even a simple old tank heater can be installed improperly, resulting in a no hot situation for several days.



The reality of my customer's situation was he had a product no one knows how to work on, no one can fix it and he has to rely on 1-800 numbers to fix it, along with a slew of parts to figure out what will fix it by the average consumer with no background knowledge of "how-to".

The reality is (most likely) that the plumber installed it incorrectly. Again.. it seems so simple to me... (this is where I knock on your forehead and say "McFly...") if no one is stepping up as the tankless guy in your area, then why not you? That opportunity is a short lived one, I can assure you. You are sitting squarely where we were in 2003.

[GoTanklessToday]

Why does a customer have to sign a waiver for a tankless? Hell, beer commercials imply that drinking their swill will cause hotties to throw themselves at you, but breweries don't make you sign a waiver to drink their product. I install a lot of water heaters but more and more customers ask about tankless, and I am a fool not to take advantage of "buzz" being generated that didn't cost me a penny.


Well said. Do you need a job?

[GoTanklessToday]

Where I live, you need to raise the incoming water nearly 80 degrees to have comfortable water at the shower. Now, for 2.5gallon/min head and an 85% efficient system, that's about a 113KBTU unit. That's not hot enough for your dishwasher, and if you want to fill the tub in anything like a timely fashion, most valves are in the order of 6 gallons/minute......?

The average system will give 3.8 gpm at 120 with an 80 degree rise. The thing is, there is no need to heat your shower water to 120. You can't use 120. You use it at 105-106. If you set the temp to 110, you will be right back up there at 4+ gpm, which will run two 2.5 gpm showers at the same time (2 gpm hot, the rest cold). The plumbing might not supply that, but the heater will produce it. I always ask my customers to answer honestly.. when will they be using two showers at the same time? That is the classic "magnum" mentality. "how fast will this Viper go? 150+... SWEET"

Tankless requires a different thought process. When you need more gpm, you turn down the heater. Why spend all that energy to heat it to 120, and then IMMEDIATELY cool it back off at the shower? These heaters come with remote temperature controllers. When you step into the shower, turn it down to 110 and hop in. Doing whites? turn it up to the max. Slow to fill the tub? Yes, you bet. There is no free lunch. Tankless does not deliver high volumes of hot water in a short order. I compare the tankless to the "tortoise", and the tank to the "hare". A 50 gallon tank heater will give you about 70 gallons of 120 degree water every hour. A tankless will give you (in my climate) 270.

[jadnashua]

Ah, but when the incoming water is 33 degrees, and there are losses between source and use points, 80 degree rise is marginal. And, trying to fill a big tub under these conditions is tough - forget about someone else using hot water...all of them I've seen require a flow restrictor to maintain the max temp rise...that affects the pressure, too.

[GoTanklessToday]

Ah, but when the incoming water is 33 degrees, and there are losses between source and use points, 80 degree rise is marginal. And, trying to fill a big tub under these conditions is tough - forget about someone else using hot water...all of them I've seen require a flow restrictor to maintain the max temp rise...that affects the pressure, too.

They aren't for everyone, that is for sure. 33 degrees? Where are you, Fairbanks? YIKES. The newer tankless systems do control flow. This is good. In the old days, the tankless heaters would allow more water to pass through them than they could heat to the set temp. This contributed to the general "it doesn't work" mentality, and rightly so. They didn't work!

33 degrees? In my favorite soup nazi voice... "no tankless for you"

[OldPete]

The rest (most) of the world uses tankless... you have to wonder why we're one of the few that thinks it is smarter to keep a big container full of water on hand 24/7 and pay to keep it at a set temp. when you can have the water ready for you when you need it and no other time.

I have a tankless and can tell you, I'll *never* go back to the tank. I have no desire to pay the gas company to heat water that will only get cold. And then -- get ready -- pay them AGAIN to heat it up again... only for... it... to... get... yup, you guessed it. Get cold again.

But since it is easier for some plumbers to replace a tank then it is to learn about something new, the masses will be stuck wasting energy and money.

Tankless units and tank units BOTH need to be maintained. The fact that people who have tanks think otherwise pretty much speaks volumes to this topic, doesn't it?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

What's great about this thread is that it puts awareness out there that these units have considerable precautions.


I also know that the majority of the viewing public understands the difference between someone trying to sell a product,


and those who install/service/maintain/troubleshoot plumbing products on an everyday basis.


But the sales tactic of "Take this blood pressure medication because everyone has been using it for years next door and since it's working for me right now, you should take it. No harm no foul" doesn't surface in a good light for your ongoing premace to drum the idea it is great.


I give you credit tankless, you're holding up better than the last few tankless guys that come here to boast the sales drive. You are damn near agreeing with most of the points I'm driving at.


Once you understand, along with others in this new product that your customer base is being committed to a significant amount of discipline to use your product due to the limitations of hard water buildup, it will come natural to realize why a few of us know that the average homeowner puts it in and forgets it.


That's the reason I go into homes with the tops of the tanks cancered out from a small leak or a loose packing nut off the shutoff valve, that started years ago, not days.


You can save a cheerleader and save the world but I'm telling you, you are targeting a fraction of the consumer base that gets out the calculater and starts the comparison channel surfing of costs override and how I'm saving greenspace according to the EPA.


My customer base calls me solely on the front of "how fast can you get my hot water back up and running."


Put in another water heater last night; this time it was a 50gal GE PowerVent. The guy was heading back at midnight to his detail as he belonged to the 164th Airlift Squadron.


At first I didn't think he'd find a PowerVent heater but HD has a few left since they no longer are bringing them in and have to get rid of the ones they have. I located one for him, (Sears is order only on these PV's now) and I told him to steer clear of the Whirlpool brand. (told him I wouldn't install one from Whirlpool due to the problems with them)


He asked about tankless, asked him if he'd be able to maintain the unit or will his wife be able to maintain it while he's deployed in Iraq. "What do you mean?" he said in such a shocked manner. "Are you going to be able to clean this unit periodically, or your wife, on a continual basis to make it heat the water like it was doing the day you installed it?"


No easy way to vent a tankless in his basement either; all finished. He spent $700 on his PowerVent water heater and almost $400 with me last night in 10 degree weather outside.


That water almost felt like it would give you frostbite if you ran the water out of the faucet onto your hands.


Now envision me putting a tankless in because I'm all giddy and shit trying to start the "new wave" of technology in this guy's basement.


He goes on the cheap, put's in a 8gpm tankless with 40 degree water passing through the unit and his wife can't take a shower when the washing machine and dishwasher are running, like they used to be able to do when they had a tank heater.


I say make this thread freaking huge, 20 pages long and let me keep bringing up my recent case by case situations where in the minds of many, the limitations are clearly evident....


and I'm not making these up; this situation presents itself whether it is the climate, the hard water area, the sizing of the tankless which definitely dictates cost solely, the periodic maintenance of the units as opposed to "put it in and forget it" common habits of the end user, the lack of trained hands to work on these units when it comes time to work on them.


I'm lying if I say I don't have customers, frustated as hell calling me at wits end trying to find someone, anyone to come fix their "save the world" technology they were sold into buying.


Two families I worked for this weekend @ a premium rate had hot water this morning. Can't say that for anyone in the situation of a tankless. This coming thursday would be a more realistic timeline, figuring the shipping of products by mail, when dealing with tankless.


Tankless I spaced my paragraphs and one-liners so you could more easily cut and paste my statements a little bit easier. See, I'm here for you. Might not feel that way, but I'm here for you. Kinda like taking you in like a son I never had. :D

[OldPete]

What's great about this thread is that it puts awareness out there that these units have considerable precautions.


I also know that the majority of the viewing public understands the difference between someone trying to sell a product,


and those who install/service/maintain/troubleshoot plumbing products on an everyday basis.


But the sales tactic of "Take this blood pressure medication because everyone has been using it for years next door and since it's working for me right now, you should take it. No harm no foul" doesn't surface in a good light for your ongoing premace to drum the idea it is great.


I give you credit tankless, you're holding up better than the last few tankless guys that come here to boast the sales drive. You are damn near agreeing with most of the points I'm driving at.


Once you understand, along with others in this new product that your customer base is being committed to a significant amount of discipline to use your product due to the limitations of hard water buildup, it will come natural to realize why a few of us know that the average homeowner puts it in and forgets it.


That's the reason I go into homes with the tops of the tanks cancered out from a small leak or a loose packing nut off the shutoff valve, that started years ago, not days.


You can save a cheerleader and save the world but I'm telling you, you are targeting a fraction of the consumer base that gets out the calculater and starts the comparison channel surfing of costs override and how I'm saving greenspace according to the EPA.


My customer base calls me solely on the front of "how fast can you get my hot water back up and running."


Put in another water heater last night; this time it was a 50gal GE PowerVent. The guy was heading back at midnight to his detail as he belonged to the 164th Airlift Squadron.


At first I didn't think he'd find a PowerVent heater but HD has a few left since they no longer are bringing them in and have to get rid of the ones they have. I located one for him, (Sears is order only on these PV's now) and I told him to steer clear of the Whirlpool brand. (told him I wouldn't install one from Whirlpool due to the problems with them)


He asked about tankless, asked him if he'd be able to maintain the unit or will his wife be able to maintain it while he's deployed in Iraq. "What do you mean?" he said in such a shocked manner. "Are you going to be able to clean this unit periodically, or your wife, on a continual basis to make it heat the water like it was doing the day you installed it?"


No easy way to vent a tankless in his basement either; all finished. He spent $700 on his PowerVent water heater and almost $400 with me last night in 10 degree weather outside.


That water almost felt like it would give you frostbite if you ran the water out of the faucet onto your hands.


Now envision me putting a tankless in because I'm all giddy and shit trying to start the "new wave" of technology in this guy's basement.


He goes on the cheap, put's in a 8gpm tankless with 40 degree water passing through the unit and his wife can't take a shower when the washing machine and dishwasher are running, like they used to be able to do when they had a tank heater.


I say make this thread freaking huge, 20 pages long and let me keep bringing up my recent case by case situations where in the minds of many, the limitations are clearly evident....


and I'm not making these up; this situation presents itself whether it is the climate, the hard water area, the sizing of the tankless which definitely dictates cost solely, the periodic maintenance of the units as opposed to "put it in and forget it" common habits of the end user, the lack of trained hands to work on these units when it comes time to work on them.


I'm lying if I say I don't have customers, frustated as hell calling me at wits end trying to find someone, anyone to come fix their "save the world" technology they were sold into buying.


Two families I worked for this weekend @ a premium rate had hot water this morning. Can't say that for anyone in the situation of a tankless. This coming thursday would be a more realistic timeline, figuring the shipping of products by mail, when dealing with tankless.


Tankless I spaced my paragraphs and one-liners so you could more easily cut and paste my statements a little bit easier. See, I'm here for you. Might not feel that way, but I'm here for you. Kinda like taking you in like a son I never had. :D

I had a "tank" my entire life and I was NEVER able to shower, do wash, and run the dishwasher at once.

With the tankless I can do all those things and never run out of water...

But I'm a stupid DIYer that doesn't know a thing. :p

[OldPete]

Oh... and YIKES... with the prices some of you guys are quoting... $3000-6000... no wonder people stay away from them...

I mean for the prices you guys are aiming at one could get one of these:

http://www.tanklesswater.com/product.asp?product=GT-199DVN

and still have a pile of cash left over.

But again, I don't know anything... ;)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Oh... and YIKES... with the prices some of you guys are quoting... $3000-6000... no wonder people stay away from them...

I mean for the prices you guys are aiming at one could get one of these:

http://www.tanklesswater.com/product.asp?product=GT-199DVN

and still have a pile of cash left over.

But again, I don't know anything... ;)


You forgot this page,

http://www.tanklesswater.com/category.asp?subcat=Tankless-Water-Heater-Accessories&manufacturer=4-Venting

Start adding those up for distance needed, along with the return intake which will be cheaper.

Plumbers do not charge "handyman" prices to install these.



I had a "tank" my entire life and I was NEVER able to shower, do wash, and run the dishwasher at once.

With the tankless I can do all those things and never run out of water...

But I'm a stupid DIYer that doesn't know a thing. :p

People do that all the time, you excluded.


Anyone want to comment on how some of these water heaters lasted 10-20-30 years sometimes?

I pulled a dial-a-matic out last year, and it wasn't even leaking. The old man said 30 years is enough to retire ole betsy. I'm sure it wasn't very efficient but it's longevity was unmatched with only 2 thermocouple replacements over 30 years.


:yawns:

[OldPete]

Ok, so let's add another $1000 for extras. (Even though the materials are closer to $400.)

So we're up to $1500... from there you get to $3000.00 to $6000.00

Ummm... Handyman or not, that's $1500-$4500 profit for less than 3 hours worth of work.

My lawyer gets $475 an hour and he's on the high-high end of the scale.

Sorry, but please don't turn this into a "Handyman" "DIYer are dumb" issue. It sounds more like "Let's put some fear into homeowners and keep them buying units that only last 7-9 years. Instead of 20".

And for each of the people you find that have had a tank for 30 years, how many have had it 7 (give or take a year)?

Quoting the exception is silly. And saying that I can take a shower, do a load of wash AND run my dishwasher all with the "Average" size tank is a stone-faced lie. I can't even take 1.5 showers with a 40.

Ugh. It's amazing people ever try new technology in this country. I'm surprised we're not still carrying our laundry down to the creek.

Tankless water heaters are clearly the better choice. Especially the new technology with higher GPM and better transfer methods. I have an older technology unit (Baxi) and don't have anything bad to say about it, except that I'm one of the few people that know how to work on them. It is a much more complicated unit than just straight DHW (this one does both heat and DHW -- so there's more to it. To hear professionals scoff at the technology is just plain silly.

The person that gave the Iraq solider story... shame on you. You could have saved that person a lot of money in energy costs and a better quality of life. Instead now, she can worry about the next time her tank is going to spring a leak and flood her basement, or perhaps the next time the pressure valve is going to get stuck open.

Oh Well...

[jadnashua]

Old Pete, newer is not always better. I just had a new high-tech condensing boiler with outdoor reset control added. It probably cost me 150% more than a more conventional one, and even with the increase in efficiency and the rebate from the utility company, I'll never recoup those additional costs. Nobody knows where energy costs will really go, but the trend definately is and probably will remain up. I bought it because I wanted it. Some people will do that with tankless. In my case, my boiler starts at 94% efficiency, and for most tasks probably exceeds 98% (i.e., when it is not running at full tilt,which is most of the time). I'm using it to heat my water, too. The better tanks have about a 1/4-degree/hour standby loss. Where is the huge waste? It isn't there. The boiler is more efficient than most if not all tankless units, and I've got a huge amount of water that will supply all of my expected needs at a very good price. The heat exchanger tubes and tank are SS, so, since it isn't seeing very big temperature extremes, should last forever for all practical purposes, with maybe a change of temperature sensor.

Where I live, as indicated, the incoming water is often just above freezing in the winter. FOr those in more temperate climes, a tankless system can probably provide lots of water, but here, you'd have to run a couple of units in series to have the volume I desire. I frequently fill a 40-gallon air tub in about 5-minutes. That's around 8-gallons/minute. I can do this while the dishwasher is running, for some reason, or someone else happens to be taking a shower, or just decides to wash their hands.

So, and I don't think I'm alone, there are alternatives. The average person doesn't want to do anything except buy the thing - they don't want to do any maintenance. To get the full life and performance out of a tankless, you must either pay for or do maintenance on the thing on a regular basis, especially if your water is unconditioned and hard. Choosing one of the more efficient tanks means you can probably buy three or more for the price of installing one tankless, with less maintenance, and potentially similar energy costs. If you are using electrical, those are 100% efficient, and to do the same thing with an electrical tankless would require a huge supply, which most places don't have. Same thing with using gas...you need a significant gas line, meter, and main line to get anywhere near the capacity of a tank type. In some places, you pay for that peak demand supply, even if you don't use it very often - i.e., your base costs are higher all of the time.

Many people ignore the free space air makeup requirements for a big burner required to supply that 6-gallons/minute flow of that tankless system. I looked into it, and I did NOT have a big enough space to meet the manufacturer's specs without putting about 3 square feet of louvered holes in the walls. Some of them use closed combustion, and that helps.

There are many things to consider...tankless is NOT the answer for everyone, and just as some rant for one, you are ranting for the other. Sometimes, both can be correct, but just like buying a pair of shoes, one size and style does not suit everyone, and in some cases, just plain won't work!

If your house is set up for it, and your use patterns allow its use, and your physical conditions are right (your incoming water isn't barely above freezing as mine is for several months of the year), then yes, it can work. But, it is much more expensive initially, requires more maintenance, and isn't that much more efficient than some of the better tank types, and isn't as good as my indirect tank on my highly efficient boiler.

Some have said they don't like the boiler for keeping water hot in the summer when the boiler wouldn't normally need to run, but with the new high efficieny, condensing units, they only have a little over a gallon of water in the burner and are designed for cold starts. Older designs were not anywhere near as efficient. The same may be true of the tankless systems, but they just aren't equal.

[master plumber mark]

[quote=GoTanklessToday]The average system will give 3.8 gpm at 120 with an 80 degree rise. The thing is, there is no need to heat your shower water to 120. You can't use 120. You use it at 105-106. If you set the temp to 110, you will be right back up there at 4+ gpm, which will run two 2.5 gpm showers at the same time (2 gpm hot, the rest cold). The plumbing might not supply that, but the heater will produce it. I always ask my customers to answer honestly.. when will they be using two showers at the same time? That is the classic "magnum" mentality. "how fast will this Viper go? 150+... SWEET"


My kid had a fever with a 103 temperature last week.......

therefore he was "pissing a stream" of 103 water, correct????

now you raise that temp 3 degrees and you got the temp you claim
that everyone takes a shower in.....


it just does not add up to me, but hell what do I know,

maybe people in Seattle like takeing pisswater baths???

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Ok, so let's add another $1000 for extras. (Even though the materials are closer to $400.)

Figure around 20 feet; that's about the average distance both of my water heater installs were hovering around. You are still below on your numbers


Ummm... Handyman or not, that's $1500-$4500 profit for less than 3 hours worth of work.

You're starting to reveal how unknowledgeable you really are on these matters. Your lawyers are ripping you off, by the way. Are all tankless units priced by your suggestion, a grand, forget the pipe? LMAO!!!



Sorry, but please don't turn this into a "Handyman" "DIYer are dumb" issue.


But again, I don't know anything... ;) But I'm a stupid DIYer that doesn't know a thing. :p <<<< Your words, not mine and you are drifting off from the subject matter which doesn't involve anything personal.


It sounds more like "Let's put some fear into homeowners and keep them buying units that only last 7-9 years. Instead of 20".



No, let's run down the list of FACTS needed to be considered before jumping the bandwagon on a product that is considered limited and pricey.



And for each of the people you find that have had a tank for 30 years, how many have had it 7 (give or take a year)?

How about 3, 2, 1, how bout 6 months before tank failure? It happens, but it's reasonably cheap for them replace IF they do it themselves, EXPENSIVE when no trained hands are there to work on the tankless. SOMEDAY, tankless pricing will come down, trained hands will be there to service, not yet. That's an open mind I have that you do not posess. You want the buying public to spend now and ask questions later and I won't be tied to a bad purchase of a product that will have problems in my area.

Hard Water Climate issues (cold weather)



Quoting the exception is silly. And saying that I can take a shower, do a load of wash AND run my dishwasher all with the "Average" size tank is a stone-faced lie. I can't even take 1.5 showers with a 40.


I knew sooner or later you'd divulge the size of your water heater. 40 gallons is 28 gallons of ready to use hot water in any given situation. I'm sure you didn't know the 12 gallon rule.

THE MAJORITY OF CONSUMERS WHEN IT COMES TO USING THEIR PLUMBING>>>>>> DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT GPM MEANS. BUT WHEN YOU BUY A TANKLESS, YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS BECAUSE IF YOU DON'T, YOUR TAKING A COLD SHOWER. FACT


Ugh. It's amazing people ever try new technology in this country. I'm surprised we're not still carrying our laundry down to the creek.

No weight to your statement, especially if you aren't even a part of the plumbing profession. I don't recall NOT installing a PowerVent water heater last night. I recall those coming around as "new technology" in the past 20. All the products that wisk through my hands signify new technology and what works, what doesn't work.

While you are armchairing your opinions, I'm in the field experiencing what the profession offers on a day to day basis. I hear the complaints, I hear the customers wants and needs. You, are giving us "it's in my house, it works for everyone" lingo.



Tankless water heaters are clearly the better choice. Especially the new technology with higher GPM and better transfer methods. I have an older technology unit (Baxi) and don't have anything bad to say about it, except that I'm one of the few people that know how to work on them. It is a much more complicated unit than just straight DHW (this one does both heat and DHW -- so there's more to it. To hear professionals scoff at the technology is just plain silly

In some areas, yes. In new construction, cheaper. Will they stand the test of time? Most likely in the best situations regarding temperature and hard water conditions. They are not foolproof like you are gloating them to be. You are lucky you have the knowledge to work on yours; majority doesn't. PERIOD



The person that gave the Iraq solider story... shame on you. You could have saved that person a lot of money in energy costs and a better quality of life. Instead now, she can worry about the next time her tank is going to spring a leak and flood her basement, or perhaps the next time the pressure valve is going to get stuck open.

That was me, my story and I'm sticking to it. The only shame in this is I didn't return the $25 cash tip he shoved in my front pocket for being so dependable on a cold night.

He came out of retirement from the Armed Forces because his job as aircraft mechanic with one of the popular airlines is about to really cut down the pensions that would of given him the comfort he needed, deserved and earned. He told me about how those guys from Pan-Am put in 30 years and are now getting $300/month pensions. That's is just horrible.

He's 50 years old, has had his spined fused twice @ LS-4 and 5. The priced I charged him was half of what I told him to expect, given off the job the night before. He cared about his wife and family to know that hot water is very important in a large family.

Your statements now look pretty insulting to your own integrity on this forum board, especially thinking I'm going to hustle this guy into buying a tankless on a sunday evening talking thousands and maybe hot water next week sometime.

And may I remind the reading public after viewing your posts on this board that you're the same one bashing plumbers and giving plumbing supply houses a hard way to go because you want rock bottom from every experience you encounter.

Thanks for the time-filler, 24 is on and I love this show!!!!

[solsacre]

Tankless vs tank?????


Crunch the #'s... the cost of install will be eaten up by cost of operation... They will cost about the same. Find out what your customer wants and deliver it ..... you won't do them wronge either way.

dances-with-pumps

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Now we need Terry with his son's band!


Cue the mic! :p :D

[solsacre]

It's a popular topic with no real answer.....



which came first the chicken or the egg



dances-with-pumps

[master plumber mark]

all they got to do is sign that waiver and I will

install the best god da// tankless heater I can get

my grubby hands on......


lets see ...they can get a 75 gallon installed for about 1300
and it will last about 10+ years.....produceing a constant
135 degree temperature through -----hell and icewater....


or they can install a tankless heater for about $3500++ with
about the same life span results except they can expect a constant temp of 106-----which basically is --- PISSWATER----

If they are happy with this , and sign that waiver,
then god bless them , I will gladly take their money......

For $3500++
I will even piss down their backs if they want a demo
on how the tankless hot water will feel.....

[solsacre]

I've had mixed feelings about the tankless that I've installed...... You have'to "over size" the water heaters or the customer will be disapointed... anyone that skimps on the size will hate them....

you get what you pay for....

will you save enough on power to install cost:confused: ????



dances-with-pumps

[Dunbar Plumbing]

It's a popular topic with no real answer.....



which came first the chicken or the egg



dances-with-pumps


LOL! The farmer

But did he eat the egg, or the chicken first to know which one tasted good????

[GoTanklessToday]

I also know that the majority of the viewing public understands the difference between someone trying to sell a product, and those who install/service/maintain/troubleshoot plumbing products on an everyday basis.

What you think you are seeing and what is really happening are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I forgot more about water heaters than you will EVER know. I've been dealing with hot water systems solely for 20 years. I am a working installer who installs 3-4 tanks a day, and 2-3 tankless a week. I have installed in excess of 16000 water heaters, 99.9 % of which were tanks. There was a time when I was ignorant like you and I remember it well. See.... I was installing tankless heaters in 1987. I remember well when they hit the scene here in the northwest. I put 3 in one week, and took them back out the next. TRUST me, I was not a proponent of tankless at all. I did everything I could to downplay them. I talked customers out of them a zillion times. I refused to accept them because the european models that we sold back then were not designed for whole house installation. Then the Japanese models hit the US market in force. In fall of 2003 I had a booth at the Seattle Home Show, where I had some tanks and a few tankless systems on display. This is when the lightbulb came on for me. I had people actually come running to my booth to see the tankless heaters. My neighbors in the home show were so tired of all the traffic I was getting, and by the end of each night I couldn't talk at all becaue my voice was gone. I ran out of brochures on day 2 of a 5 day show. We sold a PILE of heaters.

And for the record, when I say you are ignorant, it is not meant as an insult. Ignorant means "uninformed". "Shows lack of knowlege". I was surely ignorant too right up to that fall day in 2003. After that, I couldn't learn enough about them. I dedicated all my free time to learning about them and how to make them work for my customers. Why? Because I could see beyond a shadow of a doubt that my customers want them.


But the sales tactic of "Take this blood pressure medication because everyone has been using it for years next door and since it's working for me right now, you should take it. No harm no foul" doesn't surface in a good light for your ongoing premace to drum the idea it is great.

Huh? (scratches head) I never said that you should stop selling tanks, or that the tankless is the save all. When did I ever say that? The only reason this debate continues with my input is because I can see that you need my input. I'm trying to help you here.


I give you credit tankless, you're holding up better than the last few tankless guys that come here to boast the sales drive. You are damn near agreeing with most of the points I'm driving at.

I do agree. Actually, you agree with me. Or we agree. Whatever you want to say. Your points are valid, well, most of them. It's when you try to discredit the system that I feel the urge to "help" you (or anyone else that may be looking for sound info). It's not that you are saying "they may work in your part of the country, but they won't here because of the...... ". Some intelligent contractors from other areas have made comments to that tune, and as you can see, no one is out to drag them out and debate them. YOU know if they will work in your area. I don't. I know they will work in my area (and around the world for that matter). If I were in your area, I guarantee you that I could sell them. And my customers there would be just as happy. Sure, I'd have to learn all about water treatment systems, which is a good thing. I'd sell those too.


My customer base calls me solely on the front of "how fast can you get my hot water back up and running."

Us too. Our trucks roll with 2-3 tanks and a tankless system at all times.


Now envision me putting a tankless in because I'm all giddy and **** trying to start the "new wave" of technology in this guy's basement.

50 plus years. New wave?


and I'm not making these up; this situation presents itself whether it is the climate, the hard water area, the sizing of the tankless which definitely dictates cost solely, the periodic maintenance of the units as opposed to "put it in and forget it" common habits of the end user, the lack of trained hands to work on these units when it comes time to work on them.

Agree, agree agree. All valid points. It still doesn't mean that tankless heaters are not excellent options for the right customer. They aren't for everyone, but they do work, they last a long time, they save money, they provide endless hot water, etc etc etc.

I'm lying if I say I don't have customers, frustated as hell calling me at wits end trying to find someone, anyone to come fix their "save the world" technology they were sold into buying.

Once the contractors in your area learn how to install them correcly, and learn how to sell them, that problem will go away. Remember, I was where you are long ago.


............This coming thursday would be a more realistic timeline, figuring the shipping of products by mail, when dealing with tankless.

Who's fault is that? I stock 10+ tankless heaters at all times, and do them same day all the time. Our trucks all have at least one system and asociated venting on board at all times. Our motto is "go tankless today". That means today. Not Thusday. Just offering some suggestions for you.


Tankless I spaced my paragraphs and one-liners so you could more easily cut and paste my statements a little bit easier. See, I'm here for you. Might not feel that way, but I'm here for you. Kinda like taking you in like a son I never had.

I really appreciate that, it did in fact make this easier to reply. I have a hunch in reality "me being here for you" is more like it. All in all though, I do appreciate the opportunity to spar with you. I hope you have learned something. I myself have learned from this post. I took it upon myself today to learn about hard water, and the problems associated with it. I wouldn't have done that if not for this debate. We're actually going to be testing the customer's water for hardness from here on out to make sure we can be proactive in dealing with those types of problems. It seems that they make a test kit that we can carry. I guess an old geezer like me can learn something new... hopefully you can too.

Ok, one more time... tankless heaters are not for everyone. We sell them to those who want them, not to people who don't.

[dubldare]

Ok, fun reading so far. Gotta add one of my stories to the mix.

About 5 or 6 years ago, I was doing residential service in the Twin Cities. Get dispatched to a call for a WH replacement at 10am. Arrive at the customer's house, customer has a Bosch tankless he bought out of the back of a Popular Science magazine. He already had his 50 gal gas heater drained. Talk to the customer and am told that his current heater cannot cut the mustard. He keeps the thermostat set to the max and runs out of hot water. He averages 3 years on a heater between replacements. I tell him that this is quite odd, and that there may be a problem with the dip tube or a cross connection elsewhere in the house. Customer is not buying my shpiel, and all he wants is his new tankless installed.

Luckily, the customer had 2# gas in his home, which made the gas part easy. After we got the unit hung on the wall, I sent my apprentice out after the venting components. I relocated a portion of his a/c line-set for the venting and connected the water to the tankless unit. The apprenti gets back and we do the venting and finish up the gas.

The water heater location butted against the unfinished side of a bathroom wall.

The male customer had gone back to his job counting beans or pushing paper, and his wife was now home. We fired up the new unit, using an extention cord out of our truck. Lords yes, we had hot water at the nearby laundry tub. I had the lady of the house try it upstairs. Hmm, I thought as I stood next to this tankless wonder, why does your draft fan not churn, I hear the flow of the water. The blower finally started, for 5 seconds, then off for 10 seconds, then on, then off. I yelled to his wife, "Are you running hot water?", "Yes, but it's not hot, it's lukewarm." was the reply. I adjusted the thermostat. "Try it now" I bellered, "Still not hot!" was the reply.

I'd been looking at this old, mid seventies Moen tub/shower valve all day. Just for kicks, I grabbed the lines, hmmm, the hot is cold and the cold is cold. Go to the fixture and run it. Yep, plenty of hot water. Run hot water in the adjacent lav faucet.... it's cold.

Morale of the story. Well, I took a check for $2200 dollars from the customer, plus whatever he paid for the "neverending hot water" machine. It turns out a $20 1225B was all that was causing his problem.


Now, for my opinion.

I come from the upper midwest. We keep our heaters inside. Theoretically, in my opinion, any heat loss from the heater (not counting the flue) goes to heat the conditioned space, which needs heating for 9 months of the year. We don't keep our heaters in garages or outside like some do elsewhere. Additionally, the majority of our water comes from a river, which, right about this time of year, our incoming water temps are right around 35°. In the summer, our incomming water temps are around 55-60°. Additionally, lime is used as a softening agent in our waters. Not quite friendly for tankless heaters.

I tend to be rather pragmatic when it comes to tankless heaters. I have been to a few training classes for different units, but have each time walked away feeling that it's a "not ready for prime time" technology. Many of the sizing examples are overly optimistic, all parts are proprietary to a given manufacturer, and the misnomer of never-ending hot water is one that an installer can easily be 'burnt' by if he doesn't know the ins and outs. Additionally, not alot of plumbers can properly size gas piping. It is insanely simple, but it must be said that it is few and far between that you can find a gas system in a house that can handle an additional 150K btu load.

Many times, if one takes time with a customer to find their motivations, you will find that they either have an undersized system, or an underutilized system. I say underutilized relating to tank temperature. It is amazing the gains in capacity in just 10° of tank temperature. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I push for a tank type system merely for its redundancy. Thermocouple: standard, pilot assembly: standard, gas control: standard, entire unit: readily available. Technological know-how: standard.

Late this afternoon I was cornered by one of our salesmen about installing a tankless in an exisitng home. I'm not so sure he's so sold on selling them now.

[GoTanklessToday]

all they got to do is sign that waiver and I will install the best god da// tankless heater I can get my grubby hands on......[/B]

I'd be interested to see one of those waivers...


...or they can install a tankless heater for about $3500++ with
about the same life span results except they can expect a constant temp of 106-----which basically is --- PISSWATER--

Please take your thermometer into the shower with you tonight. Test the water temp. If you can stand more than 106, then you are WAY tougher than I am. Why heat the water with a tankles sup higher than 106 when you are showering? Let's see... pay to heat it up.. then immediately cool it back off before it comes out the shower head. Hmmmm. I'd work in a hill billy wise crack here, but I'm still trying to figure out how I'm gonna talk you into getting me tickets to the big race in May.

[OldPete]

I wish I could address each comment...

I'll cut mine shorter this time. The last Bosch unit I installed was $425 for the unit and another $200 for odds and ends.

I don't think I've EVER seen ANYONE run 20 feet of venting... That is just insane -- but that's me. Everytime I've seen it or done it, you either mounted it on an exterior wall, or near one. And move the lines, if needed.

Total material cost has *never* been over $1000.

I may be showing some kind of something to somebody... but I know what I know.

As far as my lawyer charging too much? I'm in the highest per-capital wealth state in the union. That rate is average for an A-class attorney.

Anyway. No point in this conversation. The people who are scared of technology will continue to be so, and those who want to try it will also.

All I can tell you is that in Italy in 1970 tankless wall mounted water heaters were, and still are, the standard in water heating. You heat water when you need it.

As far as the 1/4 degree per hour... I dunno about that one. I have one tank left to deal with in a basement. Right now that basement is 60*f.

Have fun as the battle rages on.

:D

[dubldare]

The last Bosch unit I installed was $425 for the unit and another $200 for odds and ends.

I don't think I've EVER seen ANYONE run 20 feet of venting... That is just insane -- but that's me. Everytime I've seen it or done it, you either mounted it on an exterior wall, or near one. And move the lines, if needed.

Total material cost has *never* been over $1000.

Okay, but what do you charge for labor? Total package, what does it run?




As far as my lawyer charging too much? I'm in the highest per-capital wealth state in the union. That rate is average for an A-class attorney.

Haven't had to get in all close and googly with any attorneys lately. You go you!




All I can tell you is that in Italy in 1970 tankless wall mounted water heaters were, and still are, the standard in water heating. You heat water when you need it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/78/Peabody_sherman.jpg/200px-

Sherman, set the wayback machine to Italy, circa 1970!!!



Nothing perturbes me more than those who compare us to europeans. The crux of the matter is that europeans live much simpler than we Americans. Sure they may have tankless heaters, but they are not fed the "unending supply of hot water" shpiel that we get. They do still understand a bit of having to wait, that all things are not readily available.

Here is where our cultures are different. Where they can wait, we can't. We have been learned that you can have it all, whenever you want it. Where they can put on a single tank of $5/gallon gas and drive the length and breadth of their country, we cannot. Is one wrong and one right? That is to the eye of the beholder.

Quite simply, don't put your oranges with my apples.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

What you think you are seeing and what is really happening are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Not really, you are trying to sell something and I'm trying to explain something with no benefit of the subject matter. I forgot < I'm assuming you meant "know" more about water heaters than you will EVER know.Okay internet warrior, you beat me I've been dealing with hot water systems solely for 20 years. And I haven't? I am a working installer who installs 3-4 tanks a day, and 2-3 tankless a week. Damn, you SUPA-MAN! I have installed in excess of 16000 water heaters, YOU ARE, SUPA-MAN! 99.9 % of which were tanks. There was a time when I was ignorant like you and I remember it well. Wow, I'm honored See.... I was installing tankless heaters in 1987. I remember well when they hit the scene here in the northwest. I put 3 in one week, and took them back out the next.Wow, now that is one great revelation tankless, they are doing that in my area too, and it's 2007. TRUST me,I do, it's the internet, I believe everything I read. I was not a proponent of tankless at all. I did everything I could to downplay them. I talked customers out of them a zillion times.I don't do that; I just tell them the truth of what to expect when you buy one.

And for the record, when I say you are ignorant, it is not meant as an insult. Ignorant means "uninformed". "Shows lack of knowlege". Don't worry, I know I'm ignorant, I'm as dumb as a tankless heater mounted on a wall in my tri-state area knowing the costs incurred, the temperature rise due to climate conditions, and this blessed hard water that limes up faucets/angle stops/water lines/fittings/valves/water heaters/aerators........you get the point
I was surely ignorant too right up to that fall day in 2003. I've been that ignaraant and longer since 2003 After that, I couldn't learn enough about them. An addiction I'm sure with financial endeavors that make you join website forums like these that spread the word like a preacher in a church with the world as his audience. Comon, sell me something, show me the way.I dedicated all my free time to learning about them and how to make them work for my customers.I dedicate my free time on these sites and my customers to make sure they make conscientous buying decisions whether it is an angle stop, a jacuzzi tub, a water heater or a 2" fernco. Either way, they get the best knowledge I can throw at them without underlining financial motive and masking the realities of their buying decisions. Why? Because I could see beyond a shadow of a doubt that my customers want them. So, you are toting Sylvia Brown powers huh? I guess if you are installing 16,000 water heaters, I can believe you are in their heads as well.



I do agree. Actually, you agree with me. Or we agree. Whatever you want to say. Your points are valid, well, most of them.Then why is this a discussion at this point . Listen, I know you could sell them in my area. But if you move away years down the road and these people are getting reduced GPM flow out of their units, where are you going to be with the new heat exchanger, and will you replace it for free even though you KNOW people won't maintain them like they should. The answer is no because you can't make money like that. You expect everyone to throw thousands instead of hundreds for these devices. If you are getting it, great. My area doesn't bring that luxury due to the situations in my area. You make it sound like though it can, there's the reason for my opposition. I'm the one getting the calls that are victims of these units because they are failing, miserably with no one to work on them. You jump over that factoid very well.

Why? I know why....it's apparent. You are here to sell your product, nothing else. I'd be viscious like you as well if I know the dollar runs the show. You got more than you bargained for with that "market hype" statement you made in this thread.




Us too. Our trucks roll with 2-3 tanks and a tankless system at all times. DO YOU DRIVE AROUND IN A SCHOOL BUS?????




50 plus years. New wave? Your words my friend, you are the one stating they are a recent addition to the states. Tankless water heaters are 1 to every 2000 in my area.....and I bet that number is a great deal higher on the tank side.




Agree, agree agree. All valid points. It still doesn't mean that tankless heaters are not excellent options for the right customer. They aren't for everyone, but they do work, they last a long time, they save money, they provide endless hot water, etc etc etc. Blah blah blah, you agree but sell sell sell. They do work, I know they work, in unique situations where water problems and temperature rise is NOT an issue. ALSO, trained hands to fix them and parts availability is the keyword you so ignore when these units fail. Listening to you it would have the masses believe that they never fail. That's deception and I'm calling you out to own up to the math.



Once the contractors in your area learn how to install them correcly, and learn how to sell them, that problem will go away. Remember, I was where you are long ago. Okay folks, Tankless believes that any tankless water heater installed that quits working, is solely the fault of the plumber and never the quality of the product. Let's ignore water hardness and product failure, tankless is here to save the day.




Who's fault is that? I stock 10+ tankless heaters at all times, and do them same day all the time. Our trucks all have at least one system and asociated venting on board at all times. Our motto is "go tankless today". That means today. Not Thusday. Just offering some suggestions for you. Come to my area, make your millions, you sound brainwashed by the company that sells you their product enough to glaze the thousands with your implied logic. The rule is that you stick around and deal with the customer relations that follows when you try to sell something that doesn't quite "fit the mold" like you state does, everywhere.




I really appreciate that, it did in fact make this easier to reply. I have a hunch in reality "me being here for you" is more like it.Yep, I've been waiting all my life to find you, here. All in all though, I do appreciate the opportunity to spar with you. I hope you have learned something.I've learned the same thing I've learned from most all internet forum boards that I moderate and are a active member of,

I watch all the questions regarding product choices from across the united states compile on numerous forums with people looking for answers. I then get to see the repetition of posts, product issues and product failures that are either regional or isolated, brand related or comprised of products with humble beginnings. I try to NOT be opinionated on these subject lines but when the advertisers come and join to promote product, I have fun. I exercise my knowledge of the "what ifs" and codes so anyone and everyone can make good conscious buying decisions in relation to plumbing.

I myself have learned from this post. I'm not afraid to learn and I'm pretty sure I'm the first to state that I have many years ahead of me to learn a great deal of this profession. What I refuse to do in your case is agree with some of your selling points that this product works everywhere and if you don't agree with me, well, it's the plumber's fault it isn't working.



Ok, one more time... tankless heaters are not for everyone. We sell them to those who want them, not to people who don't. It's great to see that statement, just educate your buying public of what kind of money their investment entails along with the cost of maintenance if they are not individually capable of doing it themselves.

If anything, you now know that water hardness plays a role in the efficiency of these units, along with tank heaters.

BUT, I would think that if you have installed 16,000 of these,

how come you didn't know that already?


At this point, it doesn't matter if you answer that last question or not.

There is a place for different products at different times at different places and different sizes. All in all I know I'm making valid points for those to understand that I have entirely no financial motive in any of this, NONE.

I don't make anything promoting tank heaters, they've been around for years. But when you are aggressive in "hiding" the facts about any product, I do my best to make sure the whole story is laid out for everyone to see.

I'd want someone like me (consumer) detailing the "what ifs/hows and whys before I spent 1000's of dollars instead of the norm, hundreds.

Those yellow tag energy guides for cost of operation do have some truth to them, you know. I believe electric tank heaters run around $400 a year to operate and gas whether PowerVent or regular flue run around $200-$300

On your number of water heaters, you got me beat by 15,000 I'm sure.

Ryan Seacrest, OUT!

[GoTanklessToday]

As for understanding hard water, like I have said numerous times, we don't have hard water in my area. When I drain a 20 year old tank, every drop will be clear (unless the tank rusted out). We don't flush our heaters here like you have to do in other parts of the country.


And I haven't?

No. I'll bet on it. Maybe 10 years max. But that's just my hunch based on your mentality and your age.


An addiction I'm sure with financial endeavors that make you join website forums like these that spread the word like a preacher in a church with the world as his audience. Comon, sell me something, show me the way

I don't plumb for fun. I don't crawl under houses and wear my knees out because I like it. I missed my chance to marry money. After my time in the USAF, I realized there isn't a real big call for fighter jet crew chiefs in the real world. At the ripe age of 27, I started plumbing. I hate it to be honest. I'd rather fish, hunt and tour the world. But no one gives me anything. So I plumb. Financial endeavors... you bet. Anything that will put money in my pocket and pay for my son's college, then I'm all for it. And I am trying to show you the way. My grandma used to say "there is no one so blind as one who refuses to see"



There is a place for different products at different times at different places and different sizes. All in all I know I'm making valid points for those to understand that I have entirely no financial motive in any of this, NONE.

So lets see if I understand this... you are a professional plumber, who sells your wares, services, etc. Are you telling me that you don't need the income associated with learning new methods and product? Maybe that's the root of the problem.



I don't make anything promoting tank heaters, they've been around for years. But when you are aggressive in "hiding" the facts about any product, I do my best to make sure the whole story is laid out for everyone to see.

That's laughable. It is obvious that you don't know half of the story. Keep it up, you'll get there.


Those yellow tag energy guides for cost of operation do have some truth to them, you know. I believe electric tank heaters run around $400 a year to operate and gas whether PowerVent or regular flue run around $200-$300

Yup, I tell every customer that they will save about 30% on their hot water bill if they are using a gas tank. Then immediately thereafter, I tell them what that actually means. You don't buy one for the savings. You will save, but it's a small number because natural gas is already cheap (here anyway). Electricity and propane are a different story.


What I refuse to do in your case is agree with some of your selling points that this product works everywhere

Don't make me go back and count the number of times I said tankless heaters aren't for everyone. I also admitted that we install way more tanks than tankless, even here in my area that's full of high-techies, and millionaires.


As I glance over your replies, I realize that you are fighting your own battle and chest thumping here like the typical 30 something self described expert. This exchange has gotten away from the main point, and frankly you are starting to bore the hell out of me. So learn them or don't. Just don't try to say you give your customers the whole story.