View Full Version : New Sink - PVC Maze Assistance Needed! :)
Amateur plumber here, just learning. I've got a new sink I am installing that is on the lower level of my home thus, plumbling goes right into a pvc thru the floor. Photos are of where I am so far. Nothing is glued in yet, so anything you see is just for sizing purposes.
It was suggested that I take a path similar to the photos below. I have included a diagram of what I was told to do as well. So I now have attempted to attach the tee with a female adaptor on top, with a studor vent on top of that. Unfortunately, due to the trap starting so close to the top of the cabinet, there's not enough clearance for that to fit. So what do I do next? Do I need to buy sometime to now extend the drainpipe down lower from the sink so the trap sits lower? The pipe jungle is becoming quite a headache.
Hope the photos can help -- If anyone has any suggestions for a different way to do this I'm all ears, I can always take this stuff back!
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink9.gif
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink10.gif
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/under.jpg
Much thanks.
Brad
RioHyde
01-24-2007, 04:19 PM
All you need to do is to either get a longer threaded tailpiece OR a slip joint tail piece. That will get you enough room to get your air admittance valve in. However, by doing this your trap (now lower) looks like it might wind up in the way of your hot water stop.
Get a 6" or 12" Extention and lower the trap. That will give you enough room to install the T and AAV. When you install it raise the AAV up at least 6" higher than the T. I raise them up as high as I am able.
Norcal
01-25-2007, 08:05 AM
If it were me, I would lower that first 45 and lengthen the next section of pipe in order to get the vertical pipe and tee against the back wall. Then you can raise your AAV up higher. As already stated, you can alway use extensions to either lower your trap or extend the horizontal piece of the trap, etc...
Good luck
Thanks for all the great advice! I have made some strides thanks to your assistance...The extension on the sink drain was the key.
Now I'm just trying to decide the best way to do this. I hadn't thought of trying to bend the pvc to go against the back wall, that's certainly an idea. Looks like I can avoid the hot/cold inlets just fine. Here's a couple photos of what I did. One way I totally got it to hook up using the existing pieces I had without cuts, though I am thinking the second photo might be a better way, but the holes are REALLY close together, I'd need to cut the trap arm down to almost nothing to fit it in. Nothing in these pics is glued yet.
Looking at how I'm doing this, any suggestions? I want to do it right the first time, so if something looks stupid, or if you know a way I can do it better, I'm all ears -- I'm new at this stuff.
Thanks everyone! Photos ahead...
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink15.gif
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink16.gif
That does not look like an AAV.
It looks more like a mechanical vent which is not allowed.
I would also get rid of the accordion and get a straight extention.
Get a real AAV and return the one you have. They are about $20.00
TNPlumber
01-26-2007, 05:03 AM
I agree with Cass, you need to get an AAV, if you shop at a big box store it will probably be called a studor vent. Also try and get that AAV as high as possible above the trap.
Thanks folks, good ideas there. I am gonna get rid of the flex piece.
I asked the guy at Home Depot for a studor vent and that's what he gave me. The AAV (or whatever it is) is already up there pretty high, only about another inch before it hits the granite top. What's the danger of using the piece I have or not using one at all? Reason I ask is, first up, $20 is a lot for a piece, and second, it was previously set up without a vent at all and worked fine for 6 years. So what does the vent give me? The guy who built the place didn't use one at all under there, he just went straight down with no openings at all.
ddmoit
01-26-2007, 05:30 AM
The big assumption here is that the AAV is necessary. Do you know for certain that the drain line is not already properly vented, perhaps behind the wall?
Actually I can see the entire run of pipe because I replaced it all. The whole works goes through that hole in the bottom of the vanity and then right into a larger pipe that's coming out of the cement floor (nothing goes into the wall) -- This is a bi-level home with no basement, so I can't get any further down than that! ;)
I'm not at all saying you guys are wrong -- I'm just asking because if it is necessary, how the heck did it work without problems for the past 6 years (house is six years old) and why did the previous plumber do it that way? The pipes I took out just went from the old drain and straight down into the floor.
Thanks folks, good ideas there. I am gonna get rid of the flex piece.
I asked the guy at Home Depot for a studor vent and that's what he gave me.
Reguardless of what he gave you that is not an AAV.
You asked us how to do this and we are telling you how to do it right.
$20.00 is not a whole lot of $$$. They stock real AAVs at Low*s, the HDs I have been to don't sell AAVs.
ddmoit
01-26-2007, 05:41 AM
There was at least a trap there before, right? The point of the vent, as I understand it, is to prevent the water in the trap from being sucked out by equalizing the air pressure on both sides of the trap.
I'm sure there is a lot of plumbing in this country that is improperly vented. Some of it probably works OK anyway, but why chance it it you don't have to?
Absolutely. Like I said I was just curious why it worked without the vent...That was more what I was interested in knowing. $20 is fine if it's going to ensure me a properly working sink.
And yep, there was a trap there before, then just a PVC run straight out the drainage hole in the bottom.
Thanks for the tip on Lowes vs. HD. I will hit Lowes today.
Ok, got it done, and I have leaks everywhere. The good news is that none of my PVC glue points seem to be leaking (though I must have made a slight error in the assembly as the PVC is slightly crooked, though I don't think that's the issue).
I've taken photos of where the leaks are. I've tightened these up as best I could but have NOT used any thread tape (though I think the problem is bigger than that, at least up at the countertop).
Where the trap meets the trap arm, I can actually see water pooled inside the connector there, after I shut off the water.
There also seems to be a slow leak at the top where the water first comes under (right at the drain) and I'm not sure where else.
So, where to start? What might be the problem here? Photo:
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink20.gif
chasbo
01-26-2007, 10:50 PM
One thing , yes the drain worked not being vented , but with out a doubt you could still a sewer gas having been compromized into the building. without you even knowing it, the part that always gets me, we all always try to save a dollar or 2 by doing things ourselves that we feel we can acomplish , then after several trips to the store , we have things done , or all screwed up and in your case you might consider leaving the plumbing to the plumbers, it looks as though you have the sanitary tee the trap goes into and the vent comming off of upside down. Good luck:eek:
Yes, the T is upside down. Turn it the other way.
Ts are only installed upside down when you are doing normal venting and the T is part of the vent system.
The T having a trap going to it is part of the drain system. There should be pitch going from the trap to the T. If you cut the PVC well below the T you can add a coupling then new pipe, T, female adp., then the correct AAV.
ddmoit
01-27-2007, 04:01 AM
The upside-down tee is not causing the leaks though.
Keep at it, Brad. Looks like you'll have to cut out that tee and replace it. As for the leaks, make sure you have those plastic ring gaskets in correctly. Other than that, make sure those couplings meet squarely. Sometimes if they're torqued a little, they leak.
I'm just an amateur at best, but what works for me is assembling the whole thing very loosely at first, I then slowly tighten all the couplings so that they don't stress each other - if that makes sense.
Ok, this is kinda bad news. First off I had no idea the that there was a right way and a wrong way for the tee to go. Both top and bottom looked the same to me. Maybe I bought the wrong piece? I'm almost certain that I didn't see a difference in that tee so I didn't pay any mind to which end went up. Since everything in there is totally glued together so closely, and since I am less than an inch from the top of the counter, adding any height to this is going to now allow it to fit. It's quite possible I will have to cut at the base and start completely over.
I wasn't sure about plumbers putty -- The instructions did not instruct me to use any but I wasn't sure. I thought maybe you didn't use it for vessels or something. There are rubber gaskets directly under the drain on the sink side and another rubber gasket flat up against the countertop from underneath. That brass nut you see at the very top is what I tightened to hold it in place. So there's no putty there at all but instructions didn't say to use it.
Ok so I'm sort of stuck here -- what's going to happen if I stop the leaks but don't turn the tee upside down? My plan was to re-tighten everything and try tape. Most of the water IS going down the drain. But what did I screw up by having this tee facing the wrong way? I swear from looking at it both ends looked identical to me...
Anyway, I did go ahead and use some thread tape and refasten all the trap area connections -- Looks like no leaks there now. Just one slow drip coming from right where the sink meets the counter underneath. I didn't use any plumbers putty anywhere there, instructions didn't say to, they did include a rubber washer for both the top and bottom which I thought was the substitute for putty - Figured maybe with a vessel sink you didn't use putty. Am I wrong? Is the lack of putty what's causing that particular link?
jadnashua
01-27-2007, 12:02 PM
If you look at that T, you'll see it sort of curves up to where you have the AAV. Inside the T, things are directing the water up; you want it to direct the water down. It will trap crud there, slow the drain down, and because it doesn't flow smoothly by being directed where you want it, not self clean. You'll need to cut it out and insert a new one. You can save the AAV and trap. And yes, the trap is backwards. If you turn it around, then there won't be any water pooling above the connection.
I see the curve now. Boy do I feel stupid. I didn't even notice before. Thanks for noticing all!
And thanks for all the assistance!
Ok, I'm back. Bad news, we have a leak.
It's RIGHT at the base where the reducer meets the pipe coming up out of the floor. Worst possible spot as I can't see a way of getting this out without cutting right at the base pipe which is going to not only make me have to start totally over (and buy all new pieces), but also possibly not even leave enough pipe exposed coming up out of the floor to put a new reducer cap on there.
Is there ANYTHING I can do under the lip of the reducer cap, where the arrow is, to stop this leak? A bead of silicone sealant perhaps??? I hope there might be something I can do...Even though I realize it's not the ideal solution, starting over just makes me kinda ill. What a bummer.
See the photo below. If there's something I can do, please let me know. If not, can you let me know where the smartest place to cut will be to allow me to get the sink back out (above inside the cabinet or right below the cap there?). What worries me about cutting below the cap is that it doesn't leave a lot of exposed pipe coming up out of the floor anymore.
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink30.gif
I'd already tried putting more cement around the seam but with no luck, leak was still there -- Also did some Google research this morning and read a post from someone saying that extra PVC glue was just a temporary fix, maybe for a few months, and that I'd see the leak come back again. Is that true?
Two other fixes I saw mentioned, both of which were only temporary -- One guy recommended an industrial glue called GOOP - He said to slather it around the joint and that it would last a few months. Another guy suggested epoxy cement, but also said that due to its bonding properties it would eventually expand and allow water through. They all mentioned that the PVC cement was a bonding agent but it wouldn't serve as a leak stopper.
Help???
jimbo
02-02-2007, 07:31 AM
PVC cement is not a glue at all. It is a solvent. The solvent melts the plastic so that when two pieces are forced together in the socket, the molten plastic fuses together into one solid....welded...piece. Duct tape or many other techniqes mentioned will all be partly or temporarily succesful. Eventually it will leak, and the water will attach the floor under that tile. Why not cut it apart and make it right, once and for all.
Dunbar Plumbing
02-02-2007, 07:47 AM
How many hours have you invested in this project, including trips to and from to the store(s) including cost of materials and materials junked?
Usually when one leaks there are others that follow. Let us know how you was making up those solvent weld connections; I'm thinking you are either skipping a crucial step or using old glue....which is causing all of these leaks.
I'd rather not think of the cost and time to do this...it's my first experience with PVC and plumbing on this level (running new pipe) so it's all a learning experience. I'll be able to do better next time. Still, wish I'd have had more success.
At any rate, I don't mind starting over to make it right -- My only question is, then, where to make the cut? If I cut the PVC inside the vanity, I'll be able to lift the vanity get it out, but then I still have the PVC stub stuck inside that cap and reducer coming out of the floor. I need a way to get back to the bare pipe coming up out of the floor again, but I'm not sure how to get that cap and reducer out of there now that I just glued it all in there a week ago...
markts30
02-02-2007, 02:24 PM
Cut the coupling in the middle (across) and remove the upper pipe...
Take a dremel tool or equivalent and make some vertical cuts through the coupling only (not the pipe) and use some screwdrivers to peel the coupling off the pipe...
It will be difficult and awkward but doable...
Then use some new couplings and a reducer to repair the piping...
Hey thanks, great advice. Starting over was the best approach. I managed to get the whole works apart and back to this state:
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink31.gif
So now, the problem is that I noticed what MAY be causing the leaks. This bare pipe that comes up through the cement floor (base of the house) has some damage. There are some slivers missing on the sides of it (likely a side effect from removing the last coupler that was on there before I started).
So, before I start doing anything, is there anything I can/should do to this pipe before I attach/glue ANYTHING to it? I can try and get a photo of the damage if that would help. It's a little messy back there right now. I just want to do this RIGHT this time. I cannot get underneath this pipe as this is the base/ground floor of my home (no basement). This is about as bare as it gets.
Help/suggestions? THANK YOU ALL!
Brad
Also, just to make sure I am STARTING with the right 2 pieces, this is what I bought to start with on this bare pipe. The coupler on the right with the reducer glued into it (on the left) both placed on top of this bare pipe. Are these the proper parts? Also, does it matter if I glue the reducer into the coupler first, or glue the coupler onto the bare pipe first? The last time I did this, the reducer didn't fit in there too well by hand, so I rubber malleted it in there once I applied the primer and glue to get as flush a fit as possible.
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink32.gif
Thanks!
Rancher
02-02-2007, 02:46 PM
Since your stub up has be re-used several times, I would use lots of the solvent and quickly press it on, with a hose clamp on the outside and then torque that hose clamp as tight as you can...
Rancher
Ok, so a hose clamp can actually press on those things huh? Any you mean just glob on a ton of PVC cement, right???
Rancher
02-02-2007, 04:14 PM
glob on a ton of PVC cement, right???Yes the cement, the pros here call it solvent, I made the mistake at the plumber's warehouse supply place of calling the purple stuff solvent, and was quickly corrected that it was primer, and the cement was the solvent... re-do the primer also, get it as smooth as possible before you do. The hose clamp will squeeze it down a little, but not much, good luck.
Rancher
jadnashua
02-02-2007, 05:06 PM
The reducer seems to be a tight fit. THe last one I did, I installed it first, and pushed it home by pushing the fitting against a flat surface. Having it set that way also prevents the solvent and stuff from running down onto the otherside of the fitting.
kordts
02-02-2007, 07:23 PM
Why do so many people think I am a jerk? I am going to offer this DIYer helpful advice. Number one, take plumbers mesh or gritcloth and sand off that riser. Number two, use a reducing coupling, instead of a coupling and bushing. Number three, that riser is out of plumb. Either the baldy out of the floor is crooked, or the the hole in the bottom is off center and it's putting the riser in a bind. I would make the hole a little bigger so there is no strain on the pipe. After mechanically cleaning that baldy, prime the baldy and the reducer coupling, while the primer is still wet, apply glue(solvent cement.) Push it and give it a 1/4 turn while driving it home. Keep pressure on it for about 15 seconds. Then you go from there.
At this point with your track record I would use a banded coupling and go from there. This way you don't have to worry about it not bonding / solvent welding well and leaking.
Ok...Is this the piece I need or do you mean something else? This would go overtop the exposed bare pipe in the photo above then I would just run the PVC down into it from the vanity glue-free, right? The only issue I see here I think the pipe in the photo is only 2" wide and these seem way wider.
http://www.fernco.com/QS.asp
No use the 3000-150 found here
http://www.fernco.com/proflex.asp
You can find them or similar at Low*s
The pipe in the photo should be 1.5" if it is 2" you need the 2" coupling with a 2" X 1.5" bushing then your pipe.
markts30
02-03-2007, 05:21 AM
No use the 3000-150 found here
http://www.fernco.com/proflex.asp
The 3000-215 takes 2" pipe and adapts it to 1-1/2"
3000-215 2" CI, PL. or ST. to 1-1/2" PL. or ST. (Mission band no CP-215 )
The 3000-215 takes 2" pipe and adapts it to 1-1/2"
3000-215 2" CI, PL. or ST. to 1-1/2" PL. or ST. (Mission band no CP-215 )
Yes, but may be harder to find at a big box store.
markts30
02-03-2007, 07:10 AM
True enough - hadn't thought of that ...LOL
Racer814
02-03-2007, 08:12 AM
At this point with your track record I would use a banded coupling and go from there. This way you don't have to worry about it not bonding / solvent welding well and leaking.I think thats an excellent idea in this case...
How does this look? I assume since there is a band at the bottom and the top I don't need to use any glue at all when inserting the PVC into the top, just insert, get it to the proper location and tighten? I should have done this right from the start -- It allows me to pull out the sink/vanity if I ever need to without having to cut through pipe.
http://www.newsaskew.com/a/sink34.gif
No, It has to have the solid band around it.
Get the type that I described and a 2" X 1.5" bushing like I said.
Ouch, ok so that won't work huh? Bummer. Looked perfect for what I needed. That's all they had at Lowe's, Home Depot, so I am internet ordering and waiting a few days until I can go further if I decide to go that route. That piece I show there really won't work huh? It looks like a perfect fit!
What you have there is for underground use only.
Low*s normaly has the banded couplings in the same area as where you found that. Did you look closely above and below and / or ask? It's possible they are out of them.
Ouch, ok so that won't work huh? Bummer. Looked perfect for what I needed. That's all they had at Lowe's, Home Depot, so I am internet ordering and waiting a few days until I can go further if I decide to go that route. That piece I show there really won't work huh? It looks like a perfect fit!
Both the orange and blue big boxes by me stock them, a couple of feet from where they stock ones like you got.
Thanks. The part is in, and it's great. I was even able to use the old piece I cut out due to the rubber base sticking up much further. So if I ever decide to rebuild the top part, I can even do so without having to take out the entire vanity and cut through PVC.
I really appreciate the time everyone here took to help me. I am still an amateur but I learned quite a bit about this stuff.
Thanks all very very much!