Artesian low flow - Help

I have an artesian well which was drilled thirty years ago. It has 2" galvanized pipe going down about 189'. It flows into a concrete resevoir. The resevoir is is round at about 5' deep and 4' across. It has an overflow which drains toward the lake. When I purchased the cottage the overflow was plugged and buried in the sand. So the overflow trickled out around the resevoir lid. Could this have diverted the water flow.

I read some of the discussions today and I saw the use of Nu-Well Tablets. Would the tablets make their way to the bottom the bottom of the casing. The other idea I heard of, was to attach a pump to the 2" pipe and pump from the lake into the casing. This would drive back the silt and sand from the bottom. Is this is a good suggestion.? What pressure would I use and how long would I leave the pump on?

Willy said:

... the overflow was plugged and ... trickled out around the resevoir lid. Could this have diverted the water flow.

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If you are asking whether that could have made your well stop producing, I cannot see how.

Willy said:

Would [Nu-Well Tablets] make their way to the bottom the bottom of the casing.

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If your well is not producing at all, I cannot see why they should not. I just looked on my empty NW-100 container from a few weeks ago, and it is clearly stated there that "pills sink to the bottom before dissolving", and there is no mention of any maximum depth.

Willy said:

The other idea I heard of, was to attach a pump to the 2" pipe and pump from the lake into the casing. This would drive back the silt and sand from the bottom. Is this is a good suggestion.? What pressure would I use and how long would I leave the pump on?

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Someone else here might have a far better answer for you to consider, but I would not do that to my own well. The water coming out of your well is as clean as it gets, obviously, but lake water definitely is not. When my daughters were still quite young, I had some difficulty getting them into any natural body of water after I had answered their questions about where fish pee and ducks poop!

When I used some tablets to clear the point screen in a shallow well a few years ago, the instructions that came with that particular brand, whatever it was, said to drop the tablets into the well and cap it off overnight. I do not know whether Nu-Well has tablets that do the same, but those created some kind of foamy pressure that actually forced the acid or whatever to the bottom of the well and on through the screen. I have no idea how long point screens are supposed to last, and maybe putting pressure on yours would be a bad thing. But, I would sure do something like that long before ever pumping surface water down into my well.

Hope that helps a bit ...

Willy,
if your well is a rock hole dropping those tablets down the well will have no change on the production. In order to properly redevelop an artesian well it would need to be hydro fraqed. The seems in the rock have probebly plugged up over time with silt or iron. When the well is fraqed high pressure water gets forced down the hole and blows out whatever is plugging those seems. Have you ever thought about putting a submersible pump in the well?

SAM

Willy,
if your well is a rock hole dropping those tablets down the well will have no change on the production. In order to properly redevelop an artesian well it would need to be hydro fraqed. The seems in the rock have probebly plugged up over time with silt or iron. When the well is fraqed high pressure water gets forced down the hole and blows out whatever is plugging those seems. Have you ever thought about putting a submersible pump in the well?

SAM

sammyhydro11 said:

Willy,
if your well is a rock hole dropping those tablets down the well will have no change on the production. In order to properly redevelop an artesian well it would need to be hydro fraqed. The seems in the rock have probebly plugged up over time with silt or iron. When the well is fraqed high pressure water gets forced down the hole and blows out whatever is plugging those seems. Have you ever thought about putting a submersible pump in the well?

SAM

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Thanks, anymore details on the hydro fraq. Not sure what pressure is required

leejosepho said:

If you are asking whether that could have made your well stop producing, I cannot see how.



If your well is not producing at all, I cannot see why they should not. I just looked on my empty NW-100 container from a few weeks ago, and it is clearly stated there that "pills sink to the bottom before dissolving", and there is no mention of any maximum depth.



Someone else here might have a far better answer for you to consider, but I would not do that to my own well. The water coming out of your well is as clean as it gets, obviously, but lake water definitely is not. When my daughters were still quite young, I had some difficulty getting them into any natural body of water after I had answered their questions about where fish pee and ducks poop!

When I used some tablets to clear the point screen in a shallow well a few years ago, the instructions that came with that particular brand, whatever it was, said to drop the tablets into the well and cap it off overnight. I do not know whether Nu-Well has tablets that do the same, but those created some kind of foamy pressure that actually forced the acid or whatever to the bottom of the well and on through the screen. I have no idea how long point screens are supposed to last, and maybe putting pressure on yours would be a bad thing. But, I would sure do something like that long before ever pumping surface water down into my well.

Hope that helps a bit ...

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Thanks I like the idea of using the tablets it seems the easiest. I found one supplier in Holland Michigan but he said he can't ship because its hazardous. The're in a tablet form so I don't see the harm. Maybe there is another supplier willing to ship. Would you know of anyone?

My definition of an artesian is a well with no drop pipe that water runs out of naturally.

I cant see a reason why there would be 2" pipe to the bottom and since it must be a 6" hole, there should be no screen at all.

Something is wrong with your definitions. Are you sure the pipe goes to the bottom of the hole?

If its an artesian there is no drop pipe, perhaps a few feet only into the well head thru the seal. Thus no screen to plug.

If for some absurd reason a pipe with a screen on the end goes to the bottom, you need only cut it off and let the water run out the top.

Perhaps this is a driven well?? I cannot imagine it possible to drive a point 189 feet, so I suspect your info is flawed...

Raucina said:

My definition of an artesian is a well with no drop pipe that water runs out of naturally.

I cant see a reason why there would be 2" pipe to the bottom and since it must be a 6" hole, there should be no screen at all.

Something is wrong with your definitions. Are you sure the pipe goes to the bottom of the hole?

If its an artesian there is no drop pipe, perhaps a few feet only into the well head thru the seal. Thus no screen to plug.

If for some absurd reason a pipe with a screen on the end goes to the bottom, you need only cut it off and let the water run out the top.

Perhaps this is a driven well?? I cannot imagine it possible to drive a point 189 feet, so I suspect your info is flawed...

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I understand your perspective so I'll add a bit more detail. There isn't the common 6" pipe with a drop pipe inside. The 2" pipe that I speak of is the size of the drilled well. The water, free flows out the top which is at ground level. It has a 90 degree elbow and it pours into a sealed cistern. All of the other cottages were drilled at the same time some 30 years ago and they are all 2" wells. They all have plenty of flow except for mine.

Not having a 6" pipe makes it difficult to drop a pump down inside. That's why I pump from the cistern using a shallow well pump. The flow is just a trickle out the overflow. If I compare to the other cottages the flow is like a garden hose running at home.

Seems to me if you punch a bunch of holes into a pressurized aquifer and let it run into cisterns and then over the top and down hill into a lake you are squandering a precious resource and draining this fantastic system dry without reason.

All of your neighborhood wells should have a system in place to stop the flow when the cisterns are full.

I would expect variations in flow dependant on the geological conditions which you will never know- but like the old time oil wells that ran without pumps for many years, once the kettle is drained, you add a pump, then when that finishes, you fracture, and then when that stops working, you add steam. But you dont need to harvest water like oil and let it run to the lake, cap all the wells and use only what you need.

in any case a few tablets of acid cant hurt too much and if it fails, and the neighborhood really has several "free" garden hoses worth of water running day and night, then ask to use some of the overflow.

Perhaps you can investigate installing a pumpjack and 1.5" piston pump down the hole, or simply use a jet pump at the head.

I wouldnt think backflushing could help. You might consider surging, which is forward and backward flow with quick reversals using the water in the well. Probably not economically viable.

Or...Borrow some water from the neighbors overflow - its of no use to him...or get a bigger tank - if you have a trickle its probably enough on a 24 hour basis.

Willy said:

Thanks I like the idea of using the tablets it seems the easiest. I found one supplier in Holland Michigan but he said he can't ship because its hazardous. The're in a tablet form so I don't see the harm. Maybe there is another supplier willing to ship. Would you know of anyone?

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After work today, I will take a look at the hardware store where I bought those tablets a few years ago and get back to you this evening.

You had said you have a 2" galvanized casing, but do you know how far down that actually goes?

Raucina said:

Seems to me if you punch a bunch of holes into a pressurized aquifer and let it run into cisterns and then over the top and down hill into a lake you are squandering a precious resource and draining this fantastic system dry without reason.

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Around here the artesian wells occur because the water gets trapped under a rock or clay layer that the water has entered at a higher elevation than where the well is being drilled, I guess you could consider it squandering if you allow it to fill a lake or pond, but think of all the people that get to enjoy that lake now....

Rancher

If its a 2" well with a screen then its a different scenario all together. If that water is still free flowing out of that pipe,that acid will be removed as those pellets dissolve. You need a certain amount of contact time for that acid to have an affect. Are you sure about the well specs??? You could try pumping it with a trash pump.

SAM

leejosepho said:

After work today, I will take a look at the hardware store where I bought those tablets a few years ago and get back to you this evening.

You had said you have a 2" galvanized casing, but do you know how far down that actually goes?

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It is 189'. I'm thinking I could drop the tablets down the pipe. Put a cap on to stem the flow for the acid to work. How long do the tablets take? Hopefully when the cap is removed the flow would come back. Then I guess the next option would be to attach a trash pump and dry to drive out sand or silt from the bottom to get more flow. What do you think?

If you use the tablets, then you need to temporary cap the well, because as Sammy said the acid will wash out and not be able to do it's job.

Rancher

Raucina said:

Seems to me if you punch a bunch of holes into a pressurized aquifer and let it run into cisterns and then over the top and down hill into a lake you are squandering a precious resource and draining this fantastic system dry without reason.

All of your neighborhood wells should have a system in place to stop the flow when the cisterns are full.

I would expect variations in flow dependant on the geological conditions which you will never know- but like the old time oil wells that ran without pumps for many years, once the kettle is drained, you add a pump, then when that finishes, you fracture, and then when that stops working, you add steam. But you dont need to harvest water like oil and let it run to the lake, cap all the wells and use only what you need.

in any case a few tablets of acid cant hurt too much and if it fails, and the neighborhood really has several "free" garden hoses worth of water running day and night, then ask to use some of the overflow.

Perhaps you can investigate installing a pumpjack and 1.5" piston pump down the hole, or simply use a jet pump at the head.

I wouldnt think backflushing could help. You might consider surging, which is forward and backward flow with quick reversals using the water in the well. Probably not economically viable.

Or...Borrow some water from the neighbors overflow - its of no use to him...or get a bigger tank - if you have a trickle its probably enough on a 24 hour basis.

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Actually I did ask the neighbour and I have that as a last option. Everyone now is nervous about suppling water to someone else in the event the water becomes contaminated and there is a lawsuit. So I had suggested to the neighbour I'd draw up an agreement stating the water would only be used as utlility water. I guess there a few options including just pulling from the lake but the well has always been clean and pure with no filtering

If you were to pump water down your well, you would be polluting the water in the aquifer to a certain extent for you and your neighbors. Not a good idea. It wouldn't help anyway.

If you want the NU Well tablets to work (assuming you have a screened well) you need to push water past the tablets in the screen to dissolve them so they can clean the screen and the surrounding sand/gravel. Water flowing in won't help at all. And if they just sit in the bottom in the same water, they don't dissolve.

Could it be that you are slightly higher in elevation than your neighbors and that's why yours is not flowing like it used to and their wells still are?

bob...

If there is a screen on the end of that pipe,i would let the acid sit for 24hrs.Capping the pipe is a good move. I would have to bet your problem is mainly silt around or in the slots of the screen. A trash pump should give you good results. You could even try a hand pump.

SAM

sammyhydro11 said:

If there is a screen on the end of that pipe,i would let the acid sit for 24hrs.Capping the pipe is a good move. I would have to bet your problem is mainly silt around or in the slots of the screen. A trash pump should give you good results. You could even try a hand pump.

SAM

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Sounds great. There's been alot of feedback about pumping lake water down the pipe, so I thought I'd open up the cistern and pump from there. I like the idea of the hand pump it may give more feel to what is happening at the bottom.

Speedbump is right about that acid solution.I also don't think the acid is going to work without a proper developement method. I would try pumping it first and see what you come up with.

SAM

sammyhydro11 said:

Speedbump is right about that acid solution. I also don't think the acid is going to work without a proper developement method. I would try pumping it first and see what you come up with.

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Okay, yes and no ...

Following "Dump NW-100 pellets directly from container into well", here is what the NW-100 instruction sheet says:

Next, surge [the] solution.

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In other words, the pellets are presumed to have dissolved into a solution after immersion and sinking to the bottom. Otherwise, there would be no solution to surge. And along with that, "John" (long-time owner at the local hardware store and pump repair shop even my grandfather used to frequent) has said the pellets are harmless until they hit water, and that the solution is heavier than water and will sink to the bottom even after the pellets have dissolved. However, he is not sure whether he would be able to ship the pellets to you without having to deal with HazMat issues.

With the solution in the well, the directions continue:

Agitation will spread solution's coverage over widest possible area and speed breakup of encrusting material. If start-stop pump action or other means of mechanical agitation are impractical, add a quantity of water equal to the volume of the screen so solution is forced through slot openings to contact the encrustant. Jetting by the recirculation method is not recommended because of the corrosive effect on the jetting pump and the hazard to personnel.

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If you have much at all still coming out of your well, you are going to have difficulty getting the pellets to the bottom unless you are first able to evacuate the first few feet of casing and then quickly cap/seal it off after adding the pellets. But if you can do that, I would let it set for a few hours to let the solution reach the bottom, and I would then add a little water from the top and quickly connect some kind of push-and-pull pump or other device to agitate the solution out and in through the screen. At that point, I would again cap it off and let it set overnight and see what comes out in the morning! Oh, and John also said capping it off definitely will cause some pressure to build and push the solution into the screen. However, and without explanation, he winced just a bit when I told him we are dealing with 189' of 2" pipe.

If you want to use the pellets but cannot find them anywhere or get them shipped to you, let me know and we will make it happen. At about $30.00 each, John has three 4.5# jars on the shelf. The instruction sheet says 1/2 gallon for a 2" well, and the 4.5# jar appears to me to be a little less than a gallon. Personally, however, I would use at least two of those jars in my own well ... and I just now noticed this on the instruction sheet:

To treat unusually severe cases of encrustation, double the normal dosage [and the water later added to agitate the screen].

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